The Steel Guitar Forum

Feels like this is changing from "how" to "why"...

Michael,
You are right! I apologise to Chris Castle for putting another negative post down and drifting from his question. My experience, years ago, may not be the standard today.

Chris,I joined my local many years ago when I started recording as a "vocalist".IMHO I think it is a "great" thing to do.As a "young musician" it gives you the opportunity to mingle with folks from all different styles of music.
There are many things that they can help you with that folks are not mentioning here.Advice from "attorneys" and also "recording licenses". I "acquired" all of my recording labels through them.
I also was on the "board" here at my local on the "entertainment comity" and booked our outings and parties.It was great to see some of the "old timers" that had not played for a long time, take the instruments out of the case, and join in and have a great time playing.We have many folks here that have been members over "forty years" in good standing.
What I did a few years back is give out "Awards" at our functions so that these folks where "recognized".
We need more "young blood" so to speak to get involved.Yes! there are things folks do not like,but I feel only "We" can change it!Attend the meetings..."voice your Opinion"...and if you do not like the way things are?....make a difference!.Like I said before we need young ones to do it!

Karen

WOW!!!
looks like i've started a topic that has sparked quite a debate!

thanks everyone for all the info (positive and negative). i'll really have to think about it for a while and get some more information from the studios before i decide.

-chris castle
606-789-3221

Studios won't give you any info. They're just "guns for hire." Book the time, pay the bill... they don't care. Doesn't make any difference to them.

I'm Musicians Local 47, here in LA. Had to join when I started getting work on film scores back in 1985. I was also IATSE 789-695, starting in 1979, in order to be a welder on the film studio lots. As fate would have it, in 1986, I had to take an "Honorable Withdrawal" from 695, also known as being blacklisted, long story short, nobody likes an activist.

Some time later, I had some work on one of the lots, with an independent, was confronted by a union goon and I had to show a Union card. So I flashed my Local 47 card. The look on his face was worth the cost of the dues.

I had to join the union last year, but have not renewed my dues. Somehow, the AFM is in a position where only union members can apply for a work visa in the US. They don't do anything, except to pass on the application to the appropriate governmental agency. No union card, no musician's visa. There is no guarantee that you'll get the visa, even with gigs booked. I know lots of Canadians who have canceled tours the day before the first gig because the visa didn't come through...

If that's not bad enough, it costs over $100 to apply for the visa ON TOP of membership and dues. This is ridiculous for a musician in an independent band playing original music just trying to reach a broader audience. Like any of the gigs we get would EVER pay scale. Laughable!

Mr. Hoffnar is on the right track, I believe.

I have been a union member of local 492,since 1962, also in the Electricians union. I still carry my card, in case I want to play a gig. I am retired from the electricians, and my pension, with social security is just fantastic. Without the pensions, most people don't have any money saved for retirement. In numbers we stand, alone we fall. If it were not for the unions, we working class would be getting paid poverty pay. Yes there are exceptions to the rule, but very few. Chris, if you decide to join, check out different locals, because they all have a different pay scale for the yearly dues. Good luck being a youngster starting out in this field. Ronnie

Years ago, joining a union might have been a good thing. Nowadays, I don't see it unless a musician is working in the big bands or orchestras(spelling?). With high gas prices and the economy the way it is, I don't see paying union dues. I don't know of a musician that's willing to give up a percentage of what they might have made on a weekend gig, especially after covering expenses. It's bad enough having to put up with cut throats and dishonest folks without having to give up part of your pay for a union. Don't think so. Maybe I'm a little fish in a real big pond but I'd rather spent my funds on food & fuel.

If it were not for the unions, we working class would be getting paid poverty pay.

From a historical perspective, post WWII, if it wasn't for the unions, there wouldn't be a middle class in this country.

It's bad enough having to put up with cut throats and dishonest folks without having to give up part of your pay for a union.

I can't speak for you and your situation, but from my experience, in the entertainment business, without the unions, the bastards wouldn't have paid me at all. I do and did union and non-union work. I can't tell you how much I enjoy having some d*ckhead, who's driving a $100,000 car, try to grind me for a couple hundred bucks and then get upset when I charge him a prat tax.

Like CHarlie McCoy said in one of his songs

Everybody stand up and holler for the Union
Let's give the brotherhood a cheer
Everybody stand up and holler for the union
I ain't hit a lick all year!

I used to belong and paid many dues for nothing.
No Thanks

Billy Carr wrote: I don't know of a musician that's willing to give up a percentage of what they might have made on a weekend gig, especially after covering expenses

Let's do the math. You work a gig for $100. Your employer pays say 10% to your pension plan--$10. You pay 1 or 2% for work dues-$2. You just made $98 PLUS you got $10 put into a pension fund when you retire, that will over years become worth a lot more than $10.

Isn't it interesting that in the REAL world of legit companies that offer employees a pension, everyone understands it and expects it and ask about it when they start a job. Musicians, virtually never....musicans are usually the WORST business savvy people in the job market, dominated by the some of the most savvy business people in the market.

And the overall concensus is that a labor organization is not worth belonging to......I am glad I did not listen to all the union bashers 40 years ago when I joined.

Some research is important here, obviously. If you'll be playing theatre (musicals, plays etc) or orchestral shows, it's likely to benefit you. If you're playing original music, don't bother. The only way you'll get payed scale playing original music is if enough people show up...

Marc Jenkins wrote:The only way you'll get payed scale playing original music is if enough people show up...

The only way you get payed scale is by NOT playing for less than scale.

Work for scale??? Why work that cheap? If your job is in the recording industry,,TV or Movies..Yes the Union is a must...Getting a club owner or local venues to pay scale useless...Union in a right to work state?/ WHY?

Union(s) as much good as they have done for the worker(s) seem to be dying. To me, the union leadership is more concerned about itself, in bed with the Democratic leadership In the case of the teachers union, whom admittely have heard more about are a propaganda tool for the democratic party. Flame away, IMHO

are a propaganda tool for the democratic party.

If the Repubs are about more money for the rich and businesses, at the expense of the working class, and I'm working class. Who do you think I'm going to side with?

i've had to join the union to play certain gigs...then i had to quit the union to not have to be fined or canned for doing other gigs...then i had to join again to do another gig..then i had to withdraw to do gigs that kept me alive...then....

the union exists to pay union officers, not to help musicians...

(with all due respect to the wonderful people i've known on both sides of the fence)

Bill Hatcher wrote:

Marc Jenkins wrote:The only way you'll get payed scale playing original music is if enough people show up...

The only way you get payed scale is by NOT playing for less than scale.

You're missing the point, Bill. I'm talking about playing ORIGINAL music. A lot of times my band will make very little money for playing a show, and it's only from cover charge at the door; the club won't actually pay a single dollar. This is the reality of playing original music for a lot of bands. I'm not complaining (I love it, in fact!) but thinking that joining the union would alleviate this problem would be naive to say the least.

The Repubs and the Dims are both for the rich. They are rich. Both parties. The sad part is we don't recocognize the similarities

My green card don't work anymore for a gig! LJ

I think Marc is right. For the majority of players and especially the young, holding out for gigs that pay scale can be a self-defeating proposition. If you play rock and roll there's almost no protection from the union & in fact perhaps union membership can hamper your opportunities, since so few bars clubs or other places a young band are likely to go actually live with any copacetic respect for union locals & their policies. In fact the local community connection seems almost non-existent.
It is so much easier to join the musician's union than it was when I did -about twenty two years ago. I came expecting a rigorous audition, sweating bullets thinking "these examiner people are gonna be so tough on me- what if they find out I don't sight-read?" But I sat down and played and after five or ten minutes they walked over and said "Ok, you're in." "What? You mean you don't care if I read or not ?" "Oh no, we just need to establish that you can play your instrument, and you obviously can."
But the union now has done away with the examiniation process. All they want is the money and you too can call yourself a (union) musician even if all you can do is sling a microphone and a beatbox and a dubmaster. I thought that taking that away cheapened the artisan-sensibiltiy of what the AFM once represented- it was a big reason I left and never came back.
I ended up using only ONE contract during my time, for whatever reason, and now the gigs I play are almost always for the pay they "set" for m for that show, so I am not complaining about where it got me.
But as for making work for yourself, that will always still be up the the individual- you have to create your own opportunities and take them where they come. If you want to sit on your precious hands and demand scale for everything there is a good chance you'll be sitting by your phoneside lonely a good whiles. And then I discovered many members of the local play for under scale and that it actually was sort of a "don't ask, don't tell" sort of deal- and the kind of folks who told me were your old school trad jazz guys!
If you are a symphonic instrument player I would definitely reccomend it - if you want to work a symphony job, most symphonies around the country are AFM signatories and fear the mighty meaty hand of the AFM leadership. But I think in many cities it's probably true- the local officials are probably
sharing towels with the mobsters on some level. It just... SEEMS like it, anyway.
You don't need a union rep to know which way the wind blows! And you don't need a union card to make your own mighty wind.

chas smith wrote:

are a propaganda tool for the democratic party.

If the Repubs are about more money for the rich and businesses, at the expense of the working class, and I'm working class. Who do you think I'm going to side with?

When is the last time you got a job from a poor person??

I also think it's where you are in life that determines how you feel. In the beginning you're young, and it's fun playing parties and jams and who cares about the money.

Then you get older and better and it becomes, "I won't open my guitar case for less that $100 dollars", or whatever your figure is. Lets join the union and get higher on the ladder.

Finally when it's over and your older and your go-for-it days are behind you, you become like a kid again. Hey it's fun playing jams and parties and who cares a lot about the money.

According to the Nashville Tennessean a musician community will be built in the near future. They will have a recording studio etc. According to this story it may benefit the musician on the lower end of the pay scale. Many senior citizen musicians in the past have had no place to go once father time has delt with them.