A Steeler stealing another Steeler's job !!
Moderator: Shoshanah Marohn
- Dave Mudgett
- Moderator
- Posts: 9648
- Joined: 16 Jul 2004 12:01 am
- Location: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
Richard - listen to Herb - he is giving you great advice.
I think performing artists must have a strong sense of self to withstand the onslaught of criticism and hiring/firing that is inevitable when they open themselves up to constant public scrutiny and hired-gun jobs. It's too easy to take this stuff personally. I tend to think of this like Vito Corleone argues - "It's just bizness.".
I know lots of non-musicians (like scientists and business people) who think that musicians (and other artists, for that matter) are some kind of lazy low-life who just don't want to do any "real work". In truth, the good ones are incredibly dedicated and live in the most extremely Social Darwinian world imaginable. In truth, very few people can take the gaff that this life implies.
My opinions, of course.
I think performing artists must have a strong sense of self to withstand the onslaught of criticism and hiring/firing that is inevitable when they open themselves up to constant public scrutiny and hired-gun jobs. It's too easy to take this stuff personally. I tend to think of this like Vito Corleone argues - "It's just bizness.".
I know lots of non-musicians (like scientists and business people) who think that musicians (and other artists, for that matter) are some kind of lazy low-life who just don't want to do any "real work". In truth, the good ones are incredibly dedicated and live in the most extremely Social Darwinian world imaginable. In truth, very few people can take the gaff that this life implies.
My opinions, of course.
When I went to work for Tom T. Hall I was originally hired to play steel guitar, dobro and acc. rhythm. Many players here double or triple on instruments so its not a big deal, and it doenst generally cost jobs to those deserving. In studio work, a really great player on an individual instrument will usually be made room for, but the general modus operandi for touring is that whatever needs doing, someone covers it. There's no way to reproduce many artists recordings onstage without some quality utility players present(TTH's and Tammy Wynette's band being good examples)and trust me on this, the artist wants it like the record.
In The Storytellers, the lead guiarist also played fretted dobro(his own), acc rhythm, harmonica and sang harmony. The fiddler also played 5 string banjo(mine), mandolin, acc rhythm and trumpet. Dean Hall played lead, rhythm, fretted dobro(Tom's), opened the show and sang harmony on his Dads show as well. I played steel, dobro(barred and fretted-my own), 5 string banjo, mando, acc. lead and rhythm, and tick-tack bass on my C6 neck. The keyboardist doubled on strings, and T. had at his disposal his 5 string banjo, acc. guitar, harmonica(his own)and a pocket full of picks. We were one busy bunch out there, and were decidedly banjo and dobro-poor We called it the "Tom T. Hall School of Country Music", but we got the job done. Robert Bowlin is a fine player on fiddle and the rest, as well as Tom, Jimmy Murrell and Dean on their respective instruments. I was in familiar territory with Tom's music so it all worked out well, luckily.
A situation like that or Tammy's excellent band notwithstanding, Ive noticed a disturbing trend in the utility player quality-factor over the years which has me concerened not only for jobs but for musical integrity. Tommy Tedesco, arguably the wordls most prolific studio musician, hauled a bunch of stuff to every session he attended, right down to the balilika he used on "Dr. Zhivago" Im guessing, but he really understood and could play those instruments enough to capture each ones individual voice and he usually maintained the standard tunings associated with those instruments. If he tuned a few to standard 6 string guitar tuning from time to time it is forgivable in the weight of his work load. However, tuning multiple instruments to standard 6 string guitar tuning seems to be, while still not the norm, noticably on the rise especially in Nashville.
Remembering Jerry Douglas's influence in the 80's & 90's on dobro and the 5 string banjo's re-introduction into mainstream country music in the wake of "Oh, Brother", I believe that those 2 things sold more dobros and banjos than anything else I can think of in modern times, and some aspiring studio musicians were quick to take notice. During that time I sold a number of both instruments to some of my steel playing peers, but never an instruction book although a number of times I remember telling the buyer(usually brand new to the instrument)that in the case of banjo especially, the Scruggs book might be a good investment as well. It usually fell on deaf ears.....one fellow opted for the Deering 6 string Git-Jo and subsequently laughed all the way to the bank, notwithstanding the over-abundance of excellent banjoists available locally. Most folks like that are a jack of all trades and master of none, and usually have a fairly short shelf-life. I put in my time with the Scruggs book as well as Flatt & Scruggs records and The Black Album, Price, Jones recordings etc, but many newbies forsake the work for the $$. That my friends is one reason we're in the shape we are today, musically speaking.
Ive never seen such bad playing as Ive seen emanating from the Opry stage on the occassion that one of the "new, pretty, pink tennis shoe bands" with racks full of instruments renders a less than average performance of their artists latest recording. Its one thing to have to cover the record, but back when, I seem to remember folks were hired because they could play, not because they could learn to play.
Maybe in 30-40 years those who now occupy certain chairs will blossom into virtuosos, but I remain skeptical.
My condolences to you on losing your job, but take comfort in the fact that your replacement now has more gear to load in and out than you do. That'll cut into his "twinkin' time"
In The Storytellers, the lead guiarist also played fretted dobro(his own), acc rhythm, harmonica and sang harmony. The fiddler also played 5 string banjo(mine), mandolin, acc rhythm and trumpet. Dean Hall played lead, rhythm, fretted dobro(Tom's), opened the show and sang harmony on his Dads show as well. I played steel, dobro(barred and fretted-my own), 5 string banjo, mando, acc. lead and rhythm, and tick-tack bass on my C6 neck. The keyboardist doubled on strings, and T. had at his disposal his 5 string banjo, acc. guitar, harmonica(his own)and a pocket full of picks. We were one busy bunch out there, and were decidedly banjo and dobro-poor We called it the "Tom T. Hall School of Country Music", but we got the job done. Robert Bowlin is a fine player on fiddle and the rest, as well as Tom, Jimmy Murrell and Dean on their respective instruments. I was in familiar territory with Tom's music so it all worked out well, luckily.
A situation like that or Tammy's excellent band notwithstanding, Ive noticed a disturbing trend in the utility player quality-factor over the years which has me concerened not only for jobs but for musical integrity. Tommy Tedesco, arguably the wordls most prolific studio musician, hauled a bunch of stuff to every session he attended, right down to the balilika he used on "Dr. Zhivago" Im guessing, but he really understood and could play those instruments enough to capture each ones individual voice and he usually maintained the standard tunings associated with those instruments. If he tuned a few to standard 6 string guitar tuning from time to time it is forgivable in the weight of his work load. However, tuning multiple instruments to standard 6 string guitar tuning seems to be, while still not the norm, noticably on the rise especially in Nashville.
Remembering Jerry Douglas's influence in the 80's & 90's on dobro and the 5 string banjo's re-introduction into mainstream country music in the wake of "Oh, Brother", I believe that those 2 things sold more dobros and banjos than anything else I can think of in modern times, and some aspiring studio musicians were quick to take notice. During that time I sold a number of both instruments to some of my steel playing peers, but never an instruction book although a number of times I remember telling the buyer(usually brand new to the instrument)that in the case of banjo especially, the Scruggs book might be a good investment as well. It usually fell on deaf ears.....one fellow opted for the Deering 6 string Git-Jo and subsequently laughed all the way to the bank, notwithstanding the over-abundance of excellent banjoists available locally. Most folks like that are a jack of all trades and master of none, and usually have a fairly short shelf-life. I put in my time with the Scruggs book as well as Flatt & Scruggs records and The Black Album, Price, Jones recordings etc, but many newbies forsake the work for the $$. That my friends is one reason we're in the shape we are today, musically speaking.
Ive never seen such bad playing as Ive seen emanating from the Opry stage on the occassion that one of the "new, pretty, pink tennis shoe bands" with racks full of instruments renders a less than average performance of their artists latest recording. Its one thing to have to cover the record, but back when, I seem to remember folks were hired because they could play, not because they could learn to play.
Maybe in 30-40 years those who now occupy certain chairs will blossom into virtuosos, but I remain skeptical.
My condolences to you on losing your job, but take comfort in the fact that your replacement now has more gear to load in and out than you do. That'll cut into his "twinkin' time"
-
- Posts: 12505
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: Spicewood TX 78669
- Contact:
Amen, brother. Amen.I seem to remember folks were hired because they could play, not because they could learn to play.
All you newbies out there, take heed. Mike speaks with straight tongue.
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?
- Richard Marko
- Posts: 91
- Joined: 29 Jun 2008 9:52 am
- Location: Dallas, Texas
Another note for "newbees" if you just started on steel :
Don't allow what you read dicourage you from learning the steel to the best capability you can !!
There are a few musicians out there that play multi-instruments and have "mastered" them all but alot don't either.
I guess you can call me a "limited resource" because I play only steel
(I play rhythm guitar also- but not well)
and you know what - I've been playing for over 28 years just playing steel and always worked.
I still to this day learn something new every day I sit behind my machine and you know what - I'D RATHER DEDICATE ALL MY TIME TO STEEL AND NOT OTHER INSTRUMENTS - but that is me and I'm happy with me.
There are plenty of guys that play other instruments but not enough steel players. Remember that - steel players will always be in demand.
Some guys here have written that to play multi-instruments is better to a band than just playing one instrument and I resent that simply because your judging the player compared to what a band might need or want.
To me if they want a "good" steel player then be happy with him if that is all he plays but don't look down on him if that is all he plays or feels able to perform well enough on stage with !!!
I've seen alot of guys say they play all these instrumnets but not play them well at all.
Yes, there are some very talented guys out there that can do this.
I want to share another thought on how I started in music.
The first band I was in , i had no ear for music like knowing when chord changes were coming or here - I had to watch the rhythm guitar and his hand to know when or where and I got paid a lousy $25.00 a night - yes I was terrible but it was a learning curve that I chose and I'd do it again.
The extra money the band leader pocketed was worth it to me for the developement it made my ear which is very important through out your playing career.
Don't get bogged down trying to learn too many instruments too fast - you'll get no where fast.
If your learning steel dedicate yourself to it till you feel comfortable to go out live and play then move on if you want to.
If you already know another instrument then you got an edge above others the bottom line is take your time and dedicate to it.
I'm done ranting now
Don't allow what you read dicourage you from learning the steel to the best capability you can !!
There are a few musicians out there that play multi-instruments and have "mastered" them all but alot don't either.
I guess you can call me a "limited resource" because I play only steel
(I play rhythm guitar also- but not well)
and you know what - I've been playing for over 28 years just playing steel and always worked.
I still to this day learn something new every day I sit behind my machine and you know what - I'D RATHER DEDICATE ALL MY TIME TO STEEL AND NOT OTHER INSTRUMENTS - but that is me and I'm happy with me.
There are plenty of guys that play other instruments but not enough steel players. Remember that - steel players will always be in demand.
Some guys here have written that to play multi-instruments is better to a band than just playing one instrument and I resent that simply because your judging the player compared to what a band might need or want.
To me if they want a "good" steel player then be happy with him if that is all he plays but don't look down on him if that is all he plays or feels able to perform well enough on stage with !!!
I've seen alot of guys say they play all these instrumnets but not play them well at all.
Yes, there are some very talented guys out there that can do this.
I want to share another thought on how I started in music.
The first band I was in , i had no ear for music like knowing when chord changes were coming or here - I had to watch the rhythm guitar and his hand to know when or where and I got paid a lousy $25.00 a night - yes I was terrible but it was a learning curve that I chose and I'd do it again.
The extra money the band leader pocketed was worth it to me for the developement it made my ear which is very important through out your playing career.
Don't get bogged down trying to learn too many instruments too fast - you'll get no where fast.
If your learning steel dedicate yourself to it till you feel comfortable to go out live and play then move on if you want to.
If you already know another instrument then you got an edge above others the bottom line is take your time and dedicate to it.
I'm done ranting now
- James Cann
- Posts: 1651
- Joined: 27 Sep 2004 12:01 am
- Location: Phoenix, AZ
In fairness, Herb, your (musical) real world is of broader scope than mine, but in mine, such altruism does indeed exist. Frankly, I would not accept such an offer unless the current man knew the score.I've done this before to comfortable effect. I've no interest whatsoever in being part of any band's intrigue nor any hothead's misplaced vengeance. None, thank you.. . . do you think a player will turn down a job opportunity if one is offered to him, simply because another picker is currently in the job? Such altruism doesn't exist in the real world.
-
- Posts: 12505
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: Spicewood TX 78669
- Contact:
James
I don't know what your particular musical situation is, but in the professional music arena most players who do this precarious career for a full-time living operate out of a perception of scarcity, and rightly so. See the Bill Hatcher thread on "your future in professional music" elsewhere on the Forum.
A gig you turn down, which equals money you choose not to make, will be money that is offered to some other player... one who's your competitor for a dwindling number of income opportunities... an opportunity that will go towards HIS livelihood, not yours.
Those with (relatively) secure incomes from other professions and just do music as a part-time income or hobby where they can make a few marginal but non-essential bucks have the liberty to relax and maintain a less competitive attitude about it all.
When I was working WAY-full time at the newspaper, I was much more cavalier about turning down gigs that I didn't feel like doing, or recommending friends of mine that needed the work more than I did at the time. And even now, if I get a call for a date I can't take, I'll recommend Neil, or Jim L., or Danny Hawk, or any other number of friends; just as they recommend me.
Bottom line, as usual: God bless them, you, and all the children that have their own. If you live in a nice place on the edge of the woods, wonderful. But like it or not, if you're stuck in the jungle out there, you're probably competing for survival with the rest of the lions and tigers.
I'm sure there are exceptions, but I believe the zero-sum approach exists in the highest of professional musical circles. I know for a fact that even the top pros guard their positions fiercely.
I don't know what your particular musical situation is, but in the professional music arena most players who do this precarious career for a full-time living operate out of a perception of scarcity, and rightly so. See the Bill Hatcher thread on "your future in professional music" elsewhere on the Forum.
A gig you turn down, which equals money you choose not to make, will be money that is offered to some other player... one who's your competitor for a dwindling number of income opportunities... an opportunity that will go towards HIS livelihood, not yours.
Those with (relatively) secure incomes from other professions and just do music as a part-time income or hobby where they can make a few marginal but non-essential bucks have the liberty to relax and maintain a less competitive attitude about it all.
When I was working WAY-full time at the newspaper, I was much more cavalier about turning down gigs that I didn't feel like doing, or recommending friends of mine that needed the work more than I did at the time. And even now, if I get a call for a date I can't take, I'll recommend Neil, or Jim L., or Danny Hawk, or any other number of friends; just as they recommend me.
Bottom line, as usual: God bless them, you, and all the children that have their own. If you live in a nice place on the edge of the woods, wonderful. But like it or not, if you're stuck in the jungle out there, you're probably competing for survival with the rest of the lions and tigers.
I'm sure there are exceptions, but I believe the zero-sum approach exists in the highest of professional musical circles. I know for a fact that even the top pros guard their positions fiercely.
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?
- James Cann
- Posts: 1651
- Joined: 27 Sep 2004 12:01 am
- Location: Phoenix, AZ
Herb, your points and wisdom are, not surprisingly, excellent, and naturally, they deserve clarification. There is no indictment here for anyone in the pro game. I'm not 'in the jungle,' and yes, I do have a day job for which I'm thankful, as well as I am for the hobby. I would indeed like to supplement income this way (and what better, I ask!), but I'm all the luckier, able to evaluate scenarios and set standards that jibe with my self-respect.
I was once the butt of a show-up-to-find-another-guitar-already-on-stage,-and-gee,-didn't-Jake-call-you? scene, and I've been straightforwardly-but-courteously fired. The latter made me feel badly enough, as it was a band I really enjoyed. The former is a (expletive)ty way to treat anyone, especially one who hasn't already given offense. One of those is enough, and I simply don't ever want to be part or factor in a scenario like that, pro or amateur.
My good wish goes out to you and all others in the pro game. In all ways, you deserve more than you get.
I was once the butt of a show-up-to-find-another-guitar-already-on-stage,-and-gee,-didn't-Jake-call-you? scene, and I've been straightforwardly-but-courteously fired. The latter made me feel badly enough, as it was a band I really enjoyed. The former is a (expletive)ty way to treat anyone, especially one who hasn't already given offense. One of those is enough, and I simply don't ever want to be part or factor in a scenario like that, pro or amateur.
My good wish goes out to you and all others in the pro game. In all ways, you deserve more than you get.
-
- Posts: 64
- Joined: 2 Jan 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Kyle, TX
Hey Stuart. Very kind words. Thank you. I did do the Caravans with Terry. We played the Happy Hour gig. If the night band got fired, which was not unusual, we pulled "doubles",playing from five o'clock till two,seven days a week. Did that for 3 weeks one time and made enough money to buy my first steel.
-
- Posts: 6870
- Joined: 27 Nov 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)
- Contact:
Steelers Stealing Another Steelers Job....
There are many good and appropriate comments in this thread, but there is another side that has not been discussed. The steeler may not have known he was taking another's job!
When I was young and a working steel player, a weekend job, more or less, often determined whether my family would have steak or hamburger-helper for the coming week. So, in a sense, we were all in a competitive environment.
For the record, I never ever knowingly took a job away from another steeler who had already been hired for a job, however, there were some situations where I was called and accepted a job offer not knowing that it had previously been promised to another steel player. So, I was sometimes accused of taking another steelers job when I had no clue of what was happening.
Seelers are brothers, so some of the undesirable results may be from the other "players" in our world.
When I was young and a working steel player, a weekend job, more or less, often determined whether my family would have steak or hamburger-helper for the coming week. So, in a sense, we were all in a competitive environment.
For the record, I never ever knowingly took a job away from another steeler who had already been hired for a job, however, there were some situations where I was called and accepted a job offer not knowing that it had previously been promised to another steel player. So, I was sometimes accused of taking another steelers job when I had no clue of what was happening.
Seelers are brothers, so some of the undesirable results may be from the other "players" in our world.
- Richard Marko
- Posts: 91
- Joined: 29 Jun 2008 9:52 am
- Location: Dallas, Texas
Sad to say this guy came out a few times while we were playing and was sniffing around then.
The first time he even talked to me , the second time he dodged me and that week I was left go.
I'm happy with the outcome now so he can have all the frustration and unhappiness that is to be inherited in this position,
BELIEVE ME - IN TIME HE WILL REALIZE IT AND BE SORRY HE TOOK IT !!!
In reality it was time for me to move on when your not happy playing and find something else to enjoy again.
There is a reason why things happen and usually for the best.
The first time he even talked to me , the second time he dodged me and that week I was left go.
I'm happy with the outcome now so he can have all the frustration and unhappiness that is to be inherited in this position,
BELIEVE ME - IN TIME HE WILL REALIZE IT AND BE SORRY HE TOOK IT !!!
In reality it was time for me to move on when your not happy playing and find something else to enjoy again.
There is a reason why things happen and usually for the best.
Richard,
I have my own band and right now I'm dealing with a simuliar dilema like yours. However, I'm on the bandleader's end. Several months ago I had a lead player who couldn't (for this reason) or wouldn't (for that reason) be available to play when I needed him. He often made comments to me that he wished I would get another guitar player and just let him do the singing. I ended up having to get a sub 5 times out of 6 gigs we had scheduled. I was feeling like he wasn't happy and it got where I couldn't really depend on him. One night he called and told me he couldn't play right as I was heading out the door to the gig. We played that job with just me on steel, a bass and a drummer. . . . .made for a long night.
One of the subs I hired to fill-in was really working out well. He had a great attitude, played better and knew more material than my regular man. Finally I just let the sub have the job permanantly. Of course the other guy got his feelings hurt and now holds a grudge at me. It will probably take along time before that wound heals.
I didn't really want things to turn out this way. But I have a band to run with jobs on the calendar. Sometimes ya gotta do whatcha gotta do.
Nick
I have my own band and right now I'm dealing with a simuliar dilema like yours. However, I'm on the bandleader's end. Several months ago I had a lead player who couldn't (for this reason) or wouldn't (for that reason) be available to play when I needed him. He often made comments to me that he wished I would get another guitar player and just let him do the singing. I ended up having to get a sub 5 times out of 6 gigs we had scheduled. I was feeling like he wasn't happy and it got where I couldn't really depend on him. One night he called and told me he couldn't play right as I was heading out the door to the gig. We played that job with just me on steel, a bass and a drummer. . . . .made for a long night.
One of the subs I hired to fill-in was really working out well. He had a great attitude, played better and knew more material than my regular man. Finally I just let the sub have the job permanantly. Of course the other guy got his feelings hurt and now holds a grudge at me. It will probably take along time before that wound heals.
I didn't really want things to turn out this way. But I have a band to run with jobs on the calendar. Sometimes ya gotta do whatcha gotta do.
Nick
- Richard Marko
- Posts: 91
- Joined: 29 Jun 2008 9:52 am
- Location: Dallas, Texas
Nick - if I was in your shoes I would of done the same thing.
The problem I had with this band is the steel being lost in the mix - I had customers, DJ's and my girlfriend tell me many time they see me playing but can not hear me.
We used ear monitors and when I took my ears off I can hear the singer, keyboards and guitar real loud then I tried to play and I couldn't hear so yes I grumbled.
When I got "left go" I went to hear the replacements and the situation was the same , singer/ keys / not guitar but drums were dominating the mix this time then he went and turned the keys even louder !!??
I watched the steel player and he was playing his riffs and instrumental breaks but you couldn't hear him ??
The band shouldn't have a steel if it can not be heard and the leader/sound man is too ignorant and bull headed to hear any input from others.
He has had problems with other steel players in the past then me and he will soon with the new guy.
Like I said - I'm over it and it is not my problem any more. He really needs a sound guy out front who knows how to run sound !!
The problem I had with this band is the steel being lost in the mix - I had customers, DJ's and my girlfriend tell me many time they see me playing but can not hear me.
We used ear monitors and when I took my ears off I can hear the singer, keyboards and guitar real loud then I tried to play and I couldn't hear so yes I grumbled.
When I got "left go" I went to hear the replacements and the situation was the same , singer/ keys / not guitar but drums were dominating the mix this time then he went and turned the keys even louder !!??
I watched the steel player and he was playing his riffs and instrumental breaks but you couldn't hear him ??
The band shouldn't have a steel if it can not be heard and the leader/sound man is too ignorant and bull headed to hear any input from others.
He has had problems with other steel players in the past then me and he will soon with the new guy.
Like I said - I'm over it and it is not my problem any more. He really needs a sound guy out front who knows how to run sound !!