The Steel Guitar Forum

Neither instrument is "harder" to play than the other IMO.

I love 'em both and have trouble with different aspects of either one. I seem to spend an equal amount of time on pedal vs. non-pedal guitars and I find them to be very different from each other. Sometimes to the extreme of concluding that they are two completely different instruments. Does anyone agree with this?

To be good on an instrument, any instrument, takes dedication and many hours of practice. Doesn't matter what the instrument is. My motto…”Nothing is easy”!

As with George Rout, I'm also an olde phart who has never played a PSG 'nor have I ever had a burning desire to do so...(seems Jerry felt much the same way). However, that does not diminish my opinion of the PSG especially in the hands of Herby, Buddy, Bill, et al. The forementioned play stuff which non-pedal players can only dream about. Obviously, very difficult to play and technic requiring hours upon hours to master.
The non-pedal is equally as challenging in its own way. I feel that, while both are "steel guitars", they are entirely different instruments.
There was a time when I thought the non-pedal faced doom due to the advent of the PSG. However, each are equally challenging and the non-pedal is still alive and well.

I'm not sure how anybody could claim that playing pedal steel is easier, at least if we're talking about the beginner to intermediate stages of learning (things might be more complicated later). There are simply more things to keep track of. More things to keep track of at the same time equals harder, if you ask me.

Maybe they mean that, like b0b said, it's easier to play something that will impress people on a pedal steel, whereas difficult things on non-pedal might not get noticed. That's fair enough. There are major differences in how the instruments are played, and if one played pedal steel in the stereotypical don't move the bar and only play major scales type way then it might be easier. And there are some things that can be done on pedal steel that are difficult to do on non-pedal. But assuming that one is learning slants, fluid bar movement, varied right hand technique, music theory and how it applies to the tuning and all that--in other words, learning to play steel guitar--then I don't see how adding extra variables can be seen as simplifying anything. Even a volume pedal adds a layer of difficulty.

This says nothing about the musical reach or validity of the instrument--Jerry Douglas and others have shown that even a G tuned dobro has as much depth as the musician is able to bring. Pedal steel is just harder to play.

Now, how much harder is the tough question, along with the question of what happens when that extra difficulty has been (more or less) overcome, and using the pedals and extra strings has become (more or less) second nature. Can the extra body movements required still be considered an extra layer of "difficulty" at that point? Do the extra strings, once learned, simplify the process of finding notes, or is an uncomplicated tuning still easier? Or do the two instruments differ enough in approach that that once a certain level of proficiency is achieved it becomes impossible to compare?

-Travis<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Travis Bernhardt on 13 November 2006 at 10:39 PM.]</p></FONT>

"The forementioned play stuff us nonpedal players can only dream about."

I don't know about some of you all. But Herbie can play plenty on nonpedal that I can only dream about.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Edward Meisse on 14 November 2006 at 12:07 AM.]</p></FONT>

The "Extra layers of complexity" concept is a red herring actually - usually postulated by a person who has never personally explored a pedal steel in depth. It's really "Extra layers of simplicty". In other words,on a pedal steel you're dividing up the tasks between your feet and knees that would have to be accomplished with only your left hand on a fixed pitch instrument - primarily bar slanting.And the idea that you're doing many different things at the same time is also a false assumption.I view it as one big thing divided into smaller easier bits. And just like when driving a car - no one ever thinks about the interaction of the clutch,brake,accelerator,gearshift and steering wheel to be extra layers of complexity - they just think what they want the car do to and their hands and feet make it happen without a lot of thought. Or to put it another way non-pedal is like trying to tell a story with a vocabulary of 25 words and pedal steel is like having 5000 words at you fingertips. That said - I get much pleasure from playing non-pedal 1.Because it is such a challenge to my left hand 2.Because it's easier to sound stylistically different from other players. 3.Because it discourages noodling and encourages me to think more deeply about making every note harmonically relavant.

"Extra layers of simplicity" - I like that way of thinking, Michael. It puts the use of pedals into a new perspective.

I think what you don't understand is the most impressive to you. I learned to play on pedals, and often wish I had started on lap steel. When I hear Tom Morrel, LT Zinn, or Reece, or any non pedal player that can really cook, I'm completely blown away. I think no pedals is extremely hard to play correctly.

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Howard

As much as I love non-pedal players like Joaquin, he'd be the first to admit (and did) that you have a lot more chordal possibilities on pedal steel.

That doesn't mean better music. The two instruments are beautiful but different, and each has sounds and strengths that are unique.

Harder to play? It depends entirely on the style of music and the skill level of the player.

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

"The "Extra layers of complexity" concept is a red herring actually - usually postulated by a person who has never personally explored a pedal steel in depth"

That's kind of a cheap shot, but I'll admit that the idea is an interesting one, and I hadn't thought of it that way.

I still don't agree, though, and I think that two of your three reasons for playing non-pedal can be interpreted in a way that makes pedal steel appear to be the harder instrument:

1. "Because it is such a challenge to my left hand"

My feeling, and this is of course subjective, is that played "properly" pedal steel should be equally difficult for the left hand, but with the extra thinking required to know where to move one's hand given a certain pedal or pedal combination.

If the bar isn't moving, I don't think the instrument is being fully exploited.

Of course, there are styles in which minimal bar movement is perfectly appropriate, and I suppose one could argue that there is less overall bar movement needed on pedal steel. Maybe, but I think that difficulty wise this is more than compensated for by having to "change tunings on the fly" by pushing the pedals. There is more complexity in a ten string C6 pedal steel tuning than there is in a six string C6 non-pedal tuning, and to exploit this extra complexity requires more knowledge. It doesn't do the work for you.

If I hear what you're saying correctly you're saying that really "the hard way is the easy way", and that once learned the pedals are the equivalent of, say, extra gears on a bicycle: they don't make it more complicated to ride, they just make it easier over a variety of terrain.

I won't argue that pedal steel doesn't make some things easier, after all it wouldn't have been invented if it didn't! But don't we tend to teach children to ride on bikes without gears? (Yeah, yeah, there may be other reasons for that, but I think the point is still fair.)

2. "Because it's easier to sound stylistically different from other players."

I think this is an important point. Why is it that it's easier to sound different? I don't know the answer, but could it be that pedal steel is just really hard to play, and that most people don't overcome the difficulty, instead staying with what's "easy" to do?

Okay, so that's a bit glib, but I honestly don't know the answer. I think the question is very interesting, though.

3. "Because it discourages noodling and encourages me to think more deeply about making every note harmonically relavant."

For me personally, I don't find that to be the case.

I wonder if we're talking about different things... "Minimalism leading to complexity" vs. "complications allowing for simplicity" seems to be the debate, but I'm not sure those ideas are mutually exclusive. Maybe there's some common ground to be found if we can clarify just what we're talking about.

-Travis<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Travis Bernhardt on 15 November 2006 at 01:00 AM.]</p></FONT>

<SMALL>I think that people are more impressed by easy things on the pedal steel....</SMALL>

I'm one of those. Surely I could get 'that sound' through the manipulation of a few pedals and levers, really, trying to make the job easier.
I probably should have spent a few more years at lap steel, as I consider it the harder of the two routes--getting those slurs with the hands alone.
But once hooked on pedal steel, it's hard to go back. In the end, there's neither harder or easier, you have to get good enough to get the job done.

Non Pedal Steel Guitar Rag (stringmaster)

Pedal
Sleepy Lagoon (Emmons D-10) <font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by basilh on 15 November 2006 at 06:32 AM.]</p></FONT>

...great tone on the Stringmaster.

Sleepy Lagoon would also sound better on the Stringmaster.
<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Rick Collins on 15 November 2006 at 07:44 AM.]</p></FONT>

Nice pickin' on both Bas. I love it. I've been meaning to ask you about the chord progression on Steel Guit Rag. While I've heard that progression before, it doesn't seem to be "as popular" as what I would call the regular one. Can you comment on your version please. Thanks. Geo

basilh

Both tunes you posted are beautifully played and are classic steel guitar arrangements.

However, using these two particular tunes is not a very good way to compare the two types of steel guitar: that is to say, the tone difference, the sustain nor the difficulty of playing when comparing the two types.

The big difference off the top is the sustain of the two guitars because of the tempo of the two musical pieces and the mood that one wants to bring out of those two tunes. The Steel Guitar Rag in the style that it was played required a lot of string muting; thus, killing a great deal of the non-pedal’s sustain abilities. The Steel Guitar Rag was intended to be played as a bouncy instrumental. And it was played beautifully that way.

The Sleepy Lagoon however, which his been a long time favourite of mine, is a classic tune to show the steel’s sustain range and the emotional tone of a steel guitar. In fact, this is one of the group of tunes that should be played to demonstrate the amount of sustain you can get out of various brands of steel guitars. Plus of course, with the full chords.

I have a so called cheapy D8 that has fabulous sustain that can equal a fender and with the proper pickup and amp settings sounds like a pedal steel. However; I can play tunes like the Steel Guitar Rag that has tons of string muting which really brings out the western swing sound. I also play tunes like Blue Eyes Crying In The Rain where I use a lot of extended sustain in some areas of the song.

On the other side of the coin in all this, I cannot duplicate Buddy Emmons pedal steel version of the Steel Guitar Rag on my D8. I either need pedals or a ten string (if that makes any sense to you guys).

Could he duplicate my D8 version? Well, with some practice he might.


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(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)

<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Les Anderson on 15 November 2006 at 01:03 PM.]</p></FONT>

I don't mean to talk down to anything or anyone or take cheap shots. It's just that if you have halfway sophisticated musical ideas you want to express,pedal steel is easier to play them on.The pedals let you get to things quickly and easily.Once you take a few days,internalize what the pedals do and practice some basic moves you'll just be playing music and not be thinking: "Let's see - now I have to push the 5th pedal to get a 7b5 chord". It gets instinctive real quick believe me - and when it does you can see what a labor saving device pedals are. One potential downside to pedals and Jerry Byrd and I, thru handwritten letters,discussed this to death for 10 years - is not that pedals are any harder to play but that everyone mostly has the same pedal changes and the morphing between relative chords and the licks and lines derived thereof tend to make a lot of players styles sound similar."The pedals play the player" to quote Jerry. Add to that the "Lemming Factor" where a lot of players slavishly attempt to cop their hero's entire schtick lick-for-lick,pedal-for-pedal,guitar-for-guitar,etc.
In contrast,on a straight steel,a player can't step on a pedal to get a 4 chord - he must go fetch it,or something an awful lot like it,somehow with his left hand - he must think for himself. He is instantly outside the stricture of a copedant and is at the mercy of his own manual dexterity and tuning limitations. Therefore the musical fishing expedition,all the connect-the-dots stuff involved in fleshing out a piece of music is bound to be a more personal invention which leads to a more individual style of playing and it's quite difficult to achieve that.That's what Jerry Byrd thought and that's what I've come to believe as well.
I play non-pedal because it's a challenge,not a lot of guys can do it well, I like the way the classic non-pedal instruments sound,and I like the kinds of music that tend to feature those sounds.
For an all purpose ax to cover all bases on any gig tho,I'll be taking my pedal steel.I just don't have the chops to do otherwise.

For me, they are both very beautiful instruments, each with their own "difficulties" or "easinesses" in learning, depending on which way you look at it (is the bottle half empty or half full?).

Playing non-pedal steel is a bit like driving a stick shift(manual)car....better techniques required for "handling" the "curves" on the "road", more faithful at emulating the human voice, demanding more of "horizontal" dynamics along the fretboard. 6 to 8 strings per neck.

Playing pedal steel is more like driving an automatic...fluid transmission...(now where is that gas pedal?) ....is better in traffic...more facility in handling chords and subtly fluid chord changes and demanding of more vertical dynamics across the strings.10 to 14 strings per neck.

Complementary instruments. And their combination may lead to innovation, maybe the next step in the evolution of steel guitar?

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kay