Which fender are you all using?

[Jonathan Lam]

Im always trying to be compact as possible, PSG is not helping me. Does a 12" baffle fit into the vibrolux cabinet?

[Dave Mudgett]

In principle, one could cut a new baffle for a 12" speaker and temporarily replace it in a '68 Vibrolux Reverb. You'd want to use a real efficient and clean 4-ohm speaker to get maximum power transfer and volume. This is probably a reasonable solution as long as you don't mess up the original baffle - I wouldn't do that, an original '68 VR is a valuable and cool amp. Remember also that your guitar will now sound different with a super-clean 12" speaker in it.

You're expecting compact with PSG? Dream on, man.

I love it, but on its best day, the PSG is a royal pain in the a$$. I still dream of the days when I walked into the typical gig with a guitar in a gig bag on my shoulder, a Deluxe or Vibrolux Reverb in one hand, and a knapsack with cables, strings, tuner, a small bag of "necessaries", and maybe a couple of pedals.

[Donny Hinson]

Why is so much bass response desired?

Because you only have one pickup, and it's mounted an inch and a half from the bridge. Unlike straight guitars (which have some tonal lattitude with their multiple pickups), a PSG nails you with highs, highs, and more highs. Highs is all they got! If there ain't a lotta lotta power and bass response in your amp, you won't have any bottom end or "fatness" at all.

Capiche?

[Bill Flores]

I use a SF Vibrolux with 2 Naylor 10's for small gigs. It is has ever so slight of a mod that I found some years ago, I believe in a Vintage Guitar article by Gerald Weber dealing with blues harmonica amps. I have since forgotten exactly what I did,but it was replacing it was certain a capacitor for more bass response. It worked beyond my expectations. I always thought my amp was lacking in that respect. This mod really tightened up the low end.I wish I could find the article again. Bill

[Jonathan Lam]

I mean, I am over being "portable". but, i would dearly love to avoid a 2 amp setup. haha. Any suggestions for a 12" speaker or a 15" speaker?

[Steve Feldman]

Steve, my Holland is somewhat similar with 35 watts output and a 2x10 setup. It works great for steel (and although I do not use reverb on most amps, I do on this one as it has the 3-knob Fender outboard circuit built into the preamp, which blows one-knob spring reverb to smithereens!)

The keys are 1) output tubes, 2) bias, 3) preamp tube and 4) speakers.

Assuming, of course, that the amp is properly serviced and has good filter caps, you need tubes (at least if you're looking for traditional clean-steel tones) that will provide headroom. First, change the V2 tube (second preamp tube, which runs the vibrato channel) to a 5751 - this is a slightly lower gain 12AX7 type and helps keep from overdriving the poswer amp.

Then you need good, strong, well-matched 6L6's. With 6-string it's often better to have the matching off a bit for richer harmonics, but not for steel. Precise matching is essential for clean sound. DO NOT buy into the hype of color-coded or distortion-rated "boutique" tubes (i.e. GT), as the matching is done in groups of "close". They're also NO different than mass-marketed, less expensive tubes...just marketed really well.

I prefer certain NOS (new old stock) US tubes for clean tones, especially the Philips STR387, which was engineered specifically for the inverted physical position on Fender guitar amps. Sylvanias and RCA's are also great tubes, but all are expensive. For new tubes, I prefer JJ's - I've had great success and if you call Eurotubes and tell them exactly what you are trying to do they can recommend the best tube for you, and also how to bias them correctly. Hopefully your VR has been modified (is a silverface) for adjustable bias, and you know how to do it; if not, you'll need a tech's help (or purchase a Bias Rite from www.tedweber.com, which will make the whole process easy and adjustable in minutes.

Generally, you want to bias them on the slightly cold side - not so cold that they sound brittle and harsh, but to increase headroom. You really have to adjust the bias while playing to find your "sweet spot". I'd start (with good tubes) around 28-30ma and work down a couple ma at a time until it sounds a little sterile, them creep back up - that should be the spot.

Last, this all depends on the speakers you have in it. Typical low-power Fender-labeled speakers (Jensen, Utah, Oxford etc) will break up early, and the Oxford and Utahs I'd replace even if NOT playing steel! CTS ceramics can usually cut it and sound very good; My other choice for clean steel would be Weber California 109's which are not expensive and based on a JBL-like headroom capability. The paper dustcap models sound warmer than the aluminum models IMO. In my amp I have Chicagos, but I also bias hotter and like a little earlier breakup.

However, a VR can be setup as a clean-machine and will have a surprising amount of volume. Players are often confused by power output vs volume; i.e. 50 watts, all else being relatively equal, is only about 3db lower than a 100-watt amp...to halve the maximum volume of a 100-watter, you drop to a 10 watt amp (again, all else being equal, and these are rough numbers - everything is NOT always equal. But a VR set up properly can be nearly as loud as a Twin, and sometimes ouder than one that has not been serviced or set up well.

Hope that helps -

Jim

Jim -

I guess my point is that there is no way that I would want to mod a stock, very clean '65 VR to run a PSG. Not going to happen. I'll stick with the RCA blackplates and 12ax7s instead of 5751s for this amp, the bias is set to my liking, and the original Jensens. The amp is wonderful for what it does.

However, IMO running a steel through that amp is not what's needed. I have other amps that I modify as needed.

But thanks for all that other infomation though...

[Jonathan Lam]

How big are the gigs that people are playing that twin reverbs are needed? I am still horrified by them. So freaking loud. ( again, Im just a gutiar player who is dabbling in sttel. Twins are a guitarists nightmares!)
I used to have an ultra linear twin with orange basket JBLs. enormous....

[Drew Howard]

'63 Bassman
'75 Twin w/Celestions
'77 Twin w/JBL's
'06 Blues Jr.

Believe it or not, the Blues Jr. gets a lot of session time and sounds absolutely dreamy with a pedal steel.
I've also had good luck with another Hot Rod series amp, the Deville.

[David Doggett]

Jonathan, here's one simple solution. Keep the VR stock for guitar. Get an efficient, clean playing 4 ohm 12" or 15" speaker in a small cabinet. When you play steel, unplug the internal speakers and plug in the bigger external speaker.

You can make a small lightweight speaker cabinet, or buy one from Marrs, Rick Johnson, Ray Walker or others here on the Forum, or from vendors like MojoTone. It doesn't have to be a big tuned bass cab, just something big enough to hold the speaker. My preference would be open back with slats covering about two-thirds of the back. Weber makes good JBL clones in 4 ohm versions.

As for the Twins, here's the deal. To use the volume pedal in the traditional steeler way to get sustain, you typically attack notes with the VP backed off half-way or more. The rest is reserved for sustain of long notes. So right there, you need an amp with twice as much power as a guitar player. Also, you are picking with finger picks, not flailing away with a flat pick and your whole arm. And you want to use only the clean range of the amp, not the top volume range where it might begin distorting. Put all that together, and a steeler needs an amp with 2-4 times as much power as a guitar player. It's not to play loud, but to have the volume pedal sustain. So I have found I need Twin or Showman power to keep up with guitar players with 12-50 watt amps (that are dimed and distorting). You might be able to get by with less power if the amp is miked. But many rock clubs I play in don't mike the guitar amps. Also, some bands play so loud that you might need Twin power just to keep up with the stage volume. However, players who use a volume pedal differently, or play in quiet settings (maybe a VFW post to an older crowd) regularly come on here and say they get all the volume they need from a small amp. So power needs vary widely.

[Marc Jenkins]

For what it's worth, I'm using a Garnet Session Man 2x12 combo, rated around 50-60 watts. I recently put a pair of Weber ceramic 50 watt guitar speakers in it. I guess this would put it closest to a Pro Reverb from Fender.

I play in a pretty loud band (the other guitar player has an AC30 turned up pretty high, plus a Hammond/Leslie often CRANKED). I turn the Garnet up maybe just past half for steel. It occasionally breaks up a TINY bit during a solo at the end of the night. That's it.

I also run my 6 string through the same amp, because I don't like having more gear than the keyboard player. I use a Matchbox on the steel to crank it's output up, and for the Gretsch, I drop the output volume on a Barber LTD drive pedal (set to very mild distortion; think late 60's Keith Richards tone) to match levels between the instruments. I use a custom-made A-B box to switch.

The result? The steel sounds INCREDIBLE (tonally, at least. My playing? umm...) The guitar? Well, sure, it would sound a bit better through a smaller amp. I've tried this with the same band, and listened to board mixes of both setups. No one in the band (the keyboard player is a recording engineer as well) could say which guitar tone was better. They could tell a difference, however slight. I could tell, and I would never use this setup in the studio. But on a loud stage, with ear plugs in, it sounds great! So, I'm able play music and forget about the gear.

Which is the whole point.

Jonathan, email me if you have any questions about my setup. It works better than I suspected, for sure. It might not please any tone 'purists' but it pleases me. And whoever gives me a ride.

[Jonathan Lam]

THe sustain thing makes sense explained that way. I knew that was what teh volume pedal was mainly used for, but I never thought abotu it context of runnign into an amp. The 15"/12" speaker box combo seems a good compromise. I am going to try to order a 12" baffle for the VR and see how that goes. I suppose people are using showman heads?

[Doug Beaumier]

Do you guys bring different amps for gigs when you double on guitar then when you are strictly playing steel?

Yes, always. When I'm playing both steel and guitar I haul a Steel King and a Vibrolux, two sets of effects, etc. It's worth the extra work in my opinion.

[David Doggett]

I suppose people are using showman heads?

Yes, Twins are way too heavy for me. I've sworn off anything over 50 lbs. Also, using a head allows the ultimate versatility in choosing speakers. I have a 2x12 cab and a couple of 15" cabs. And I like to keep the head beside me for tweaking, but like the speakers some distance behind me to blend with the stage volume.

[Tony Prior]

dup

[Tony Prior]

Hot Rod Deville 2x12

[Buster Warren]

Hot Rod DeVille w/ 15" JBL D-130

[Donny Hinson]

How big are the gigs that people are playing that twin reverbs are needed? I am still horrified by them. So freaking loud. ( again, Im just a gutiar player who is dabbling in sttel. Twins are a guitarists nightmares!)

Twins don't have to be played any louder than any other amp. The problem is that so many straight guitar players simply can't (or won't) play without overdriving their amp. When they get an amp that won't overdrive until the volume is at earsplitting levels, they automatically choose to play at those earsplitting levels.

The problem isn't the Twin Reverb.

It's the guitar players who are "dynamically challenged", and can't play without distortion.

[Jim Sliff]

Steve - I wouldn't mod a '65 VR either. I was just pointing out how a VR CAN be setup to play clean. Realistically, though, many guitar players pull the original Jensens before they blow 'em and use replacements. Nothing I advised is a "mod"...and the blackplates I'd keep in it - they sound great biased a little on the cold side as opposed to the newer Russian and and other repros.

Donny - I tend to agree with most of the volume arguments about Twins. I've owned many and serviced dozens, and it's a rare Twin (usually with weak gain) that sounds decent turned down to 2 or 3. You're just not driving the speakers or the power section enough to open the tone up. It's a thinner, constricted tone. Some may like it, but many don't and ned to get a Twin somewhere (depending on the amp) near the middle of the volume settings before it "blooms". It's why I use a Pro Reverb instead nowadays for clean playing.

[Dave Mudgett]

How big are the gigs that people are playing that twin reverbs are needed?

For me, any gig that has a "normal" - anything but very quiet with minimal kit - drummer. I can only get a enough clean juice out of a smaller amp if there either isn't a drummer or such drummer has a minimalist (e.g., snare/hat) kit with brushes or a very light touch. But - this depends on what kind of tone you want and what style of music one you play. I need to be able to get a pretty classic pedal steel clean tone.

I agree with David D. that one needs additional headroom to make full use of the volume pedal. My main Fender tube PSG amp is my Dual Showman Reverb head, as I mentioned earlier.

I also don't like to run Fender amps on 2/10. If I can't at least get them up in the 3-4 range, they sound pretty sterile to me. Really - the way I have them set up - with 5751 in the first preamp position - running them on 4, or even 5 or 6, is not generally what I would call "distorted". I agree with Jim's description that they just "bloom" a bit. I think this is a combination of perhaps just a hair of tube compression and a wee bit of acoustic feedback with the guitar/pickup.

For most styles of music I play, there's no point in comparing PSG and 6-string guitar. Completely different beasts, and they have quite different amplification requirements. But not because I usually play very distorted - I don't. Most rock or blues guitar players I know consider that I play with a very clean tone - of course, clean is in the ear of the beholder. It ain't clean like running straight into a high-headroom hi-fi amp into hi-fi speakers But even my solid-state steel amps aren't that clean.

BTW - my earlier response to your query that one could - in principle - replace the baffle should not be construed as advice that I think it's a good idea. I think David's advice to bring along a separate speaker cab with a 12" or 15" 4-ohm speaker is a much better idea. I have a compact 15" cab that works pretty well, and is really no big deal to tote around. As I said earlier - I think you should be very careful not to mess up your cool '68 VR. Also, as I said, your guitar will likely sound very different through a real clean-sounding 12" speaker than it does now with your 2-10" speakers. If you are very happy with your current guitar sound, you may be unhappy with the compromise. I'd try running the VR through an appropriate 12" speaker before I go cutting baffleboards. Just my opinion.

[Jim Sliff]

I think this is a combination of perhaps just a hair of tube compression and a wee bit of acoustic feedback with the guitar/pickup.

Good description. That's about the best thought I've heard about why they start to bloom at a certain point.

[Tony Prior]

Helloo..Purpose..

The Twin is used NOT for volume but for extremely clean headroom and overall performance. The Twin is one of the most significant Tube amplifiers ever offered on the market as it maintains clean headroom almost all the way to the top while increasing the output gain.

Thats why we use them, not for the volume. Any tube amp worth it's salt which is clean and powerful will have very heavy transformers, which is what we are carrying around.

next time you see a Matchless 15 watt amp, go pick it up.

purpose is everything in my view.

[Sam Weisenberg]

In terms of doing double duty on an amp: I saw some videos of Redd Volkaert playing his telecaster through a Peavey solid-state steel amp and regular old Boss pedals (mixed in with some boutiques). And he's got incredible tone. He seems to use all the headroom to get a clean tone and then all the overdrive comes from the floor.

Still, in Brooklyn, a big solid-state amp is as much a hassle as a Twin. But one amp is surely easier than two.

Sam

[Matt Elsen]

I've been using either a '67 Dual Showman BF or a '69 Dual Showman Reverb.

Fabulous amps with killer sound and plenty of power. Both are just heads - no speakers - which means they are relatively lightweight and quite portable and I can choose whatever speaker combination fits the bill or my mood. I can use: JBL's, Black Widows, or a combination; 12 inch or 15's; a single speaker or two.

I love the flexibility and the fact that because the head and speakers are separate they are lightweight and easy to move around. You can also position the amp right next to you on stage for easy access to the controls, but have the speakers well away from you.

Of course, the most important thing is the sound they deliver and boy, oh boy, do they!

I just recently bought the '67 (in beautiful condition) from someone off of Craig's List for around $600. A 40 year old, hand-wired, black-faced, classic in fantastic shape. I see them come up on ebay occasionally and they can often go in the $500 - $750 price range. In my book, if you can find a clean one these amps are absolute steals!!!

The '69 DP Reverb needed work and I sent that off to Ken Fox who did his magic on it. I love this amp - it just sings! I've been using it for a couple (trouble free) years and it kicks tail.

[Jonathan Lam]

I ended up finding a super reverb in a 1x15 cabinet for a vibroverb kinda thing. The normal channel stays clean and loud enough for whats happening usually. The guitar channel is not quite what i want, but its closer than say using a twin.

[Jeremy Threlfall]

I'm with Jim - any modern bass head sounds good - I have a 400W Laney that is not so shabby with the steel, but I do use it mainly for bass duties (sometimes its the only gig I can get)

My main guitar amp is a reissue Blues Deluxe (40W one 12" speaker) I use that for practicing my lap steel too.

I have recently aquired a '61 model Vibrasonic - 45 or so W into a D130-F (15") JBL. I'm still conming to grips with that one - sounds massive.

Rock solid backstop - a Steel King. I can't beat it for reliability and predictability. Very consistent amp.