The Steel Guitar Forum

Jack Stoner wrote:"Tone" is very subjective and what one person considers "great tone" or "the ultimate" tone, someone else may (and many do) have a totally different thought on it.

If everyone thought the same make/model was the "best" everyone (or practically everyone) would be playing that make/model. If the Emmons PP REALLY is as desireable as many think, why isn't it still a standard production model?

Jack - there are some incredible guitars being produced today, with fine attention to detail and wonderful engineering. Mike Mantey has highlighted one of these. Steel players today are really spoilt for choice. The push pull is certainly not for everyone, especially those who can't hear the difference between different guitars. The push pull is not the most intuitive guitar to tune or change pedal and lever set up, but once the principle is mastered it will stay in tune as well as any all pull guitar.

Some players buy guitars for the looks, others for sound, some for the weight (or lack of it), some because of who play them, some for the ability to change pedal action and set up, and some for a combination of these. There is no definitive overall 'best' guitar because as Jack said, everyone would simply buy the one make all of the time.

The thread is about whether some pedal steels sound 'like a push pull'. The simple answer to that is no. But they can still sound great in their own way.

Tone is subjective, to the cardboard ear!
It's obvious that some folks here really can't hear the difference, or won't say it if they do.

John Hughy had been in my store looking for a Emmons P-P three times before his horrible untimely death. He was also looking for one from his past ownership. The reason he left the guitars in the first place had nothing to do with the guitars, but with the company and the attitude the new management had after the death of the owner (Ron), M. Aycoth,,which now has also died.

This lack or support from the company and the attitude was the reason several Nashville players quit playing the guitar.

The Zum is a wonderful guitar, I think the world of the Zum, and the owner of this nice company, but it still doesn't sound like an Emmons P-P.

Buddy E. sounds wonderful on his C6th Sierra, but he still sounds his greatest on his P-P Emmons for country E9th. Now this is truly my own opinion.

I know which guitar I sound best on, because I know which guitar sounds best.

Now, as for Lloyd, he came into my store one day and played his Sho-Bud for a while, then I asked him to play my Emmons, I was astounded and told him that he sounded incredible on my guitar, better than his own! He stated that he did agree but also that he got such great service from Shot and the Sho-Bud factory that he'd never change brands while Shot was living or while sessions were up. And he had some political reasons also. (and I understood)Lloyd is faithful wonderful guy.

The storl or this morie is: There are many players that play guitars for many other reasons that just tone, politics play a great part in this choice selection also.
As far as Tommy White goes, he changes guitars faster that the speed of sound, as a matter of fact, he has an incredible new steel ordered from a new company in Nashville that should make him sound as good as anything ever has. I promise you that Tommy will be playing it soon and everyone will be in awe of it. As well they should be.

But then again, everyone shouldn't play a P-P.
(why waste a great sounding guitar on a cardboard ear)

I really don't recommend these guitars for everyone. (just me)

Bobbe

I agree with you Jack. Many manufacturers try for the Push Pull "Tone", while some get pretty close, it is just not the same. I think most would agree the push pull tone is considered the best. What if it could be beat, I am here to tell you it can. Can you imagine having an amazingly designed all pull guitar that sounded like a push pull. While it couldn't be the exact same without just having a push pull. I am here to tell you, an all pull guitar can sound better than the push pull and not use any of the push pull tone secrets. It is done a completely different way and the results are a tone acting like the push pull, but surpassing it in almost every aspect from the lows to crystal clear (bell tone) highs, sustain and presence that will give you those chills. It can be done and it was......

By the way, I see merit in and agree with most of you and your opinions here on this thread. I also respect your opinions as most of you are very close friends.

This is a very volatile subject, every person has an opinion here and they won't all be the same. But let's all respect everyone elses views.

Bobbe

Like I say, politics are powerful here!

Although this is off subject, it's an interesting item. A friend of mine from Mt Juliet, told me that when Hughey did the Mississippi River boat TV show with Conway that the Steel in the show is a JCH because he was promoting them, but he couldn't get the tone he wanted from the JCH so he used his Emmons PP for the sound track.

I listen to recording sessions I did in the mid/late 70's with my 71 PP D-10 (Black) Emmons and a Twin Reverb and the sound is great. I listen to recording sessions I've done in the last 10 years or so with my Franklin and a Peavey Amp and the sound is great too.

Yea, The Emmons PP. Sounds great, like an Emmons PP. VERY glad there are many others that sound great too!

I am no expert, but have owned 2 PP's and a few all-pulls.

My observations: First, I would have to agree that speaking strictly tone, nothing beats a PP. To a large extent, I regret selling mine. But on the other hand I don't feel a pressing need to go out and immediately buy another right now. Why is that? The same reason that other players (those who also agree the PP is the "Holy Grail" of sound) that play all-pulls don't. It's called "trade-off".

Maybe a PP (restored or in excellent original condition) is too expensive (the prices on those buggers HAVE gone up!). For some maybe it's a weight thing, or intimidating mechanics. Or stiffish, "less-than-smooth" pedals. Whatever. Yes tone, to me anyway, is the most important item but the fact is it isn't the only one. My ZB has killer tone and has more "mojo" than any guitar I have ever owned. Does mojo count for something? And my new Derby has excellent tone AND sustains better than either of my PP's did. Does it sound like a PP? Not quite, but it sounds good. Damn good.

No argument from me. Nothing sounds like a PP (that WAS the original question, right?) and I want another one someday. But there are other guitars out there with strengths and identitites all their own.

Now...let's all hold hands and sing "Kumbaya"

Most Of us Try The Economy Brands And always Come home Too Emmons. Just My Thought. Whats Yours?

If you're a good player, you'll sound good regardless of what you play. If you're a flunkie, the world's best guitar, even a a gold plated, totally restored, push/pull Emmons ain't gonna help you. (You'll still sound like a flunkie.)

I admire and envy the players and their talent, not their equipment. It's no different than any other learned skill. When I hire a contractor, I look at and judge him by his work. I could care less what's in his tool box.

I have a D10 Emmons p/p. I'm waiting for some fool to give me about five grand and a new D10 Fulawka, and it's his!

Donny, don't let your ears get wet!

here we go again...

i bought a new zum in 82 because it was an economy guitar....i also have 2 d10 emmons' now. i still prefer the zum...it's in the ballpark, plays better, got all modern split capabilities, lighter, and i love the sound....and love the emmons also...
what donny said..i like what the player brings to the table...regardless of how he gets it there!

Chris, unfortunatly, a lot of producers don't feel that way. It's the ENTIRE package they hear, mostly tone and execution. They can't hear pedal action, or care about how pretty the guitar is, or how ugly or old the player is,, or care how much you paid for it, they only care about the tone, and your execution. Personality figures into the equation also, you have to get along with them because they write the checks.

When you have to compete with the great steel players for work constantly, you'd better have great sounding equipmemt, play it well and have a good personality, know the latest jokes and be willing to buy the producers lunch when he hints.

The Emmons P-P is a proven winner in the guitar department, but naturally there are other guitars than can be made to sound great. This is a proven fact also. Good place to look for a great sounding guitar is to look toward the professional studios, what guitars do you see being recorded there? Emmons? Zum? Sho-Buds? Franklin? Yes, mostly.
to make it short, what comes out of the amp is what the bottom line is about.

thank god they don't care how ugly or old we are....!

Chris, I know, look at me if you can!

Bobbe Do you still sell the alkaline Batteries for my hearing aid?

I have to laugh when steel builders claim their guitars sound like an Emmons P/P. They don't. There's only the original.

Economy brands ?

good grief,we sure have come a long way...baby..


And we can line up a dozen Tele players using the exact same gear and we will hear a dozen different sonic responses. Half of them will actually ask the other half how they got that sound...

I'm no expert - far from, but to me the P/P-sound is the best - that's why I play one. It has a definite special sound and feel to it. It also stays in tune like nothing else I've played.

Tony Prior wrote:Economy brands ?

good grief,we sure have come a long way...baby..


And we can line up a dozen Tele players using the exact same gear and we will hear a dozen different sonic responses. Half of them will actually ask the other half how they got that sound...

Tony - the reference to the Telecaster is interesting. When I read reviews of 6 string guitars, inevitably comparisons are made of the tone against Fender or Gibson guitars.

The same thing happens very often with steel guitars being compared against Emmons P/P's or ShoBuds. Once a standard has been set it is one that others use for a comparison or benchmark.

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I think that most of the modern pedal steels are excellent, both in presentation and build quality. My friend Ron Mawn has a black Fessenden that sounds very bright and clean accoustically. I must admit that the thought did initially run through my head that it did sound a bit like a P/P. But when compared to Ron's black push pull, the answer was - no it doesn't. But, and this is most important, the Fessy sounded great in its own way. So do many of the other modern guitars. There is hardly a bad one out there these days. So even though a guitar doesn't sound like a push pull does it matter, it can still sound really good especially if the person sitting behind it is a competent player.

Well Maybe The Economy Steels Sound Pretty Good. Check Bobbe Seymore Out Playing a Carter Starter . Wow !

Randy, yes , we sell the batteries. But since you sold the off brand guitar I sold you, this proved you can hear pretty well!

Your buddy,
Los Bobbster




P.S. I just bought a '38 LaSalle. (used)

what...couldn't afford a new car???

Chris, you kill me!

Bobbe

A tonal signature is a hard thing to forge. A guitar in the the same tonal vicinity is good, but there aren't very many.

"Cardboard ears". I love that! Guess I'll
be staying in today.