The Steel Guitar Forum

Hi Dale, thanks for the info and I'll contact you on the music stand. Great idea!

Thanks,

Lenny

Steve Norman,
I'm looking forward to hearing from you, and of your progress with the return problem.

Bent Romnes,
Brilliant? That,...I'm not. Simple, is a reliable enough description in both regards.
Please feel free to drop a line, or call with any questions. Thanks for the nice words, and posting in here.

Tim Konecky,
Nope. It looks like you qualify very nicely here. And, it also appears that I was right for once. The "guts" are the same on all of them. (I told Steve that earlier)
Also Tim, it's not just for the noise, you'll notice a much improved feel, and deliberate action on the guitar as well.

(Student model GFI)


Len Amaral,
Thanks again, looking foward to hearing from you.

I'm really enjoying the chatting, and getting acquainted with all of you.
Thanks again,
Your pal, Dale

Hey Dale! I got those washers on, and it DOES work!

Thank alot for them

I had an email today from someone having a tough time finding the washers.

The best bet for finding them is Lowes. You may also be able to find them at an Ace, or Tru Value.
It is a 1/4 x 1/2 inch nylon washer, 1/32 in thickness.
At Lowes, you'll find them in the specialty fastener section.(second tray, nylon hex nuts and washers)


In this bin.



If they are out of the 1/4 washers, as in this case, you can get the 9/32, and they'll work just fine.
I'm gonna keep searching for more, and better sources for these, as long as you fellas are interested.

Sorry you had a wasted trip to the store Dan.

Your pal, Dale

nt

Dale -

Just remembered somethin'.

Never did get to play that clamorous, buzzing, atonal 16 bars of Mansion On The Hill for you when I was over to your place the other day. Will rectify that next time with even a modicum of palm blocking.

Don't ya just love an old newbie jumpin' into the fray? Clams and all!

Richard

dale,
thank you so much i went to the home depot and bought the washers, i put them on it was simple and it REALLY worked no more clattering and when i tune up there isn't all that play(wobble) my ultra feels like a new guitar thank you again A.J.

Richard,

I really enjoyed our visit the other day. Come back again anytime. The blocking will come along, and will happen in its own time. Maybe just think a little more about how you want it to sound, set aside any harsh judgements of how it sounds now, be patient, and let it find its own way in. I see it happening for you soon.


A.J.

You're so very welcome, and thanks for popping in here with the great report.
And just when you thought life couldn't get any better....
Just kiddin'
Your pal, Dale

well I started messing with the springs on my GFI to get rid of the sharp return,,and then I decided to change the travel of the lever to as minimum as possible. By the time I was done I had springs shooting across the room,, 2 cut fingers, the cat wont come out from under the bad and my wife is mad at me for throwing a screwdriver.

I got rid of the flat return on string 6,, but then string one only raised 1/2,,by the time I got it all back together and the string one raise back to normal, the flat return on 6 was back.

lesson,,

Its better to have a flat 6 than no steel at all.


Im heading to the hardware store next week for the washers..........

i just had the chance to play a student model GFI
the other day as a freind just started selling them in RYE Colorado i have to admit they are pretty decent entry level guitars but they do seem to have a lot of rattle/noise

I hope no one gets me wrong about my post,,GFI's are great,,I just tinkered where I shuolda tonkered

Steve,

Is it possible that you might be lowering the string a little more than in needs to go? That alone might cause a sharper than "normal" return.
I use that change more in a passing way, so I haven't been too bugged by it.
Do you tune by ear, after the E's with a tuner?
If so, maybe try getting the other pedal lever combos tweaked in to your liking, and then when the (top 4th) E lowered to D# with the lever sounds good with the "B"(5th) by themselves, add the(6th string)G#, and fully engage the lever to the F#. Does it sound flat?
Tweak it on the endplate until the "5 chord" sounds in tune. From the open position, that same inversion would be at the 2nd fret, with strings 5,6,&8 (A&B pedals down) Does it sound the same?

Cripes...I've even managed to confuse myself here.
Feel free to give me a buzz, if you think I might be able to help you at all.

Your pal, Dale
(615) 618 0776

One more GFI note from me...


When I finally bailed out of E9 altogether (having found B6 much more to my style and tonal preference, being in a guitar-like range) and decided to switch to a copedent worked out by Ed Bierly for me (along with a couple tweaks by Paul Redmond) GFI went above and beyond the call of duty, sending me specific rods and bellcranks to do 4 splits very precisely, along with custom, hand-written installation and setup instructions from Bob. It was so detailed and SO accurate I think they had to have set one up that way at the factory to ensure it would work - there's a first string lower that some other guitars could not do, but the Ultra handles it. I don't see how they could have seen sure without actually setting one up, though.

Just really pleasant folks to work with and service beyond all expectations. Plus, in that "Sneaky B6" Fender 400-like copedent, it sounds more "Fendery" than ever, but with more sustain and punch.

Dale I use the "pinched" 5th a lot,,open I to lkr,rkl in. I tune first with a petersen then tweak it to my ear's liking. I can hear the string beating on an open I chord after I release the levers. Visually on the petersen the 6 string is rolling up noticably as well.

It is several cents sharp.

Maybe I am being to picky,no-one I play with complains about it,,but to me it sounds bad.

Dale-finished the mod yesterday and the results are fantastic. I didn't think you could improve on GFI, but this simple mod makes it that much better. Had a little trouble finding the washers untill you posted the pics of what to look for. Then I found them right away. Thanks again, I'm much obliged.

On another note, I've noticed that my C pedal depresses slightly whenever I'm using the LKL/A pedal combination. It returns to the up position if I release either the LKL or A pedal, and it never happens if I engage either of them one at a time. Is this typical, or do you think I have something ill-adjusted?

Steve, I think I'd better serve you if I refer you to the folks at GFI at this point. Just call em' up, they're real good to talk to, and would probably have a good, easy solution for this oddity that you're experiencing. I believe that there is a balance problem going on. But, take heart, you don't have to just "live with it", there is a way to fix this.



Chris Buchanan- Good to hear from you, and I'm very pleased to hear of your positive results with the nylon washer mod . It will also reduce a lot of the metal on metal contact at those points, eliminating the wear between the neck of the brass connector, and the bellcrank, which in turn, will extend the life of the guitar. (I may have not mentioned that before)

Now, I'm gonna cuss you. Dadgummit! You just knew that I would have to go to my guitar, and figure out the phenomenon that you described above. And it worked..... I'm a complete, and hopeless sucker.
Well, the good news is,.. there's absolutely nothing wrong with your guitar. It does the same thing on mine as well, but I've never noticed it. Why in the sam hell are you looking at your feet anyway? (just kiddin') But, at any rate, the consequential action has no adverse affect on anything else whatsoever, so just forget about it.
When I flipped my guitar upside down to scrutinize the problem,... it vanished. (try it for yourself)

When the guitar is in the usual upright position, that particular A&F combo creates just enough tension on the rods to slightly pinch the brass connector on the bellcrank for the third (C) pedal. When the guitar is upside down, gravity won't allow it to pinch hard enough to move it.
You would really have enjoyed seeing a fat guy under his guitar contorting feet, knees, elbows, and anything else available, to activate the combo, while groping with one hand to feel around for the solution to this riddle.
I hope your happy. I'm just glad it wasn't video taped.
I'm just kiddin' around with ya. Thanks for the challenge.
Fear not, all is well.

Hey Dale,

Just updating you. You mentioned this washer idea to me some time last year. I've been planning to do it on my next string change which will be in a week or two. I was curious about something, if one has the time can this be done without cutting the washers or is the hole too small?
I too had difficulty finding the washers. I normally shop at Home Depot, and couldn't find them after several visits. I finally had to go to the Lowes across the street for something and they were right there!

Also, I may be asking you about some tuning and return issues soon but I'll have to unpack it from yesterday's jam first.

Thanks for your help,
Jeff

Howdy Jeff,

It's good to hear from you again.

Years ago, I knew of an old rancher back home, who had his own unique method of counting his sheep. He'd lay flat out on his belly, count up all of the legs, and then divide the total by four.
I'm sure that he thought he had a good system going, and to my knowledge, never did convert to the much easier method that the rest of us used.

We stood up, counted up all of the ears, and then,... would divide that total by two.

One day, I'm confident that someone will even come up with an improvement over that method.


There's at least two good reasons for "pie" cutting the washers. First, it's a whole lot easier to just simply slip them in between the bellcrank, and the shoulder of the brass connector. Besides, that way, you can judge the fit of it right away, yank it out, and thin it a little if needed. The small loss of surface area on the nylon washer won't make any difference; the 80+% remainder of the washer will do the job just fine.
The second (even better) reason to do it my way, is that you'd have to painstakingly pull every rod out of every brass connector, and back it out of the hole in the bellcrank, just to slip the washer on. And, you won't know how good of a fit you have, until you get the whole rod assembly back in place.
Even if you did get the job pulled off, you'd receive no added benefit.

There is one more reason.
You really don't ever want to bear the indignity of maybe one day having an old sheep rancher, from North Dakota telling all of his morning coffee buddies all about the odd fella out in Clayton, Ohio., who took a 20 minute job, and turned it into a six hour job.


Ok, I will compromise with you a little here.

You could just make one single cut in the washer with a side cutter, and worm it on. There is one other gentleman, who told me that he did that. He too, was concerned with the washer not going all the way around the fitting.
I'll say it again, it's no big deal that it doesn't.

Dale, you've never met me... but somehow you know me! You're very right, that is a big mess that I would get myself into. I wouldn't even realize it until it's too late. I do this to myself at work all the time. I'll be going with the pie cut-out method.

As for my tuning issues, I think I remember. One is probably common, the low C string (C6 neck) doesn't return exactly when pedal 8 is released. This one may be improving with use.

The other problem is more strange. When the E9 E-F lever is engaged, it pulls one of the G# strings flat (I think the high G#). The string returns perfectly with the lever released. My Korg tuner has enough resolution to clearly see what's happening. I may be able to figure this one out if I look really closely, but maybe you've seen this before and can help.

Thanks,
Jeff

Would someone please post an undercarriage pic of the changer end of a student mod. for me? The bell cranks look adjustable, and no springs on the lower cranks(like a Pull-release) so its a universal all-pull?

Jeff,

Is your E to F raise on LKL?
Is it for sure you know if that change that is the culprit?
I could not find any inherent mechanical reason that would happen. Now, on the other hand, when you lower the 4th (E), the big return spring at the changer could conceivably "hook on", to the one next to it, and drag the 3rd(G#) a little flat with it.
One thing that you might do, is check for debris in the changer, such as a loose string ball that got hung in there. However, I don't really suspect that as being the case, if it is happening the same way, the same amount, every time.
If its intermittent, it's likely to be a hang up problem somewhere. If it's consistent, we'll need to dig some more for an answer. Sometimes, over a long period of a lot of little adjustments, things can get somewhat out of balance under there. You do want to make sure that you have at least a tiny amount of slack on all the rods. (all guitars need to have a certain amount of slack, all around, to operate smoothly)
If you don't get anywhere with your own discovery process, call GFI. They'll know what to do. They may already be familiar with this problem, and know of a simple fix.

nt

I've never had a rattling or "loose" feel problem with my GFI, but then mine was stripped completely and redone in a B6 copedent requiring 4 split rods and a few other tweaks - so it's not "off the shelf.

But I sprung for the washers anyway and installed them last night. In my case, the difference is subtle - the it DOES feel just a hair more precise. Noise difference is negligible; but it's definitely worth a few bucks and 15 minutes of your time to install them.

Jim, I'm glad that you've gotten at least some benefit from the bushings.

Now, you have me wondering a little, if some of the earlier GFI's had slightly thicker bellcranks, or if some of the components might have changed before I got mine in 07'.

I'll call Gene someday soon, and find out about that.

nt