The Steel Guitar Forum

Jim I knew that was coming !

tp

There are 2 brown things I try not to step in; one is the world of UPS.

It's great that some of you have had few or no problems with brown, but that doesn't help those of us that have. It just takes one bad experience to leave a bad taste in your mouth.

I'm still out a settlement from several years ago. They kept changing their reason for denying the claim. What chaps a lot of us is their attitude and they don't really care. They've gotten so huge they don't need or want your business.

I always request shippers use an alternate method. Sometimes they do, sometimes not.

Most recently, an acoustic guitar delivered had the entire back separated and a boxful of splinters.

The mail order company made good on it themselves as they stated it was easier to just replace it than deal with the carrier.

OTOH, I've had good results with FedEx. I pack the items I ship myself and spend a good half day doing so. As anyone who has bought anything from me can attest, it's a real chore to unpack also....but packing only goes so far.
A heavy item like a steel or amplifier can suffer significant damage when kicked off a conveyor, airplane or truck. Workers are under pressure to process large numbers of items and they ain't gonna take the time to handle your precious cargo with any kind of care. They don't know or care what's in the package. If you know people who work there, they will probably confirm this treatment.

However, I once took an acoustic guitar in a hard case to my FedEx station [where I have a long standing account] to get an accurate quote for shipment overseas. I asked the lady if the price was with their packing or mine. She asked, what packing? She was figuring just shipping the guitar in the case per some pevious pics here so I make sure it's packed well.

Still, if it's an irreplaceable and/or out of production instrument, you're best served to deliver it yourself or meet the buyer somewhere.

If it's intercontinental, you just have to hold your breath.

As mentioned earlier, the insurance ain't worth the paper it's written on and the reps will try every trick in the book to weasel out of paying a claim.

With all due respect to Howard and the others who suggest calling them, they don't even have a number listed in the local directory. Maybe it's a 1 800 UPS or some such #. I don't know, but I do know I'd put it in the back of my truck or push it 1000 miles before I'd ever hire them to deliver anything

UPS sure isn't perfect. But it seems to be "luck of the draw" whhen it comes to attitude or service problems. I've had nothing but hassles with FedEx and DHL, for example, while others love 'em.

The one consistent thing, though, is packing safely. I can't stress that enough. That can save you from all sorts of hassles. As noted before, a huge majority of "claims" are packing related (and that's true with all shippers).

One other UPS note - there's a lot of confusion about The UPS Store. All it is is Mailboxes Etc. with the *name*...not the stores...now owned by UPS. They are still individual franchises, and when you have THEM pack something it is NOT the same as having packing done/inspected at a UPS counter. To clarify this again - the UPS Store is NOT UPS. (and for that matter, FedEx Ground is NOT FedEx either!)

I have seen many packages being packed at UPS Stores, and I would NEVER, EVER have them pack an instrument. 90% of what the use is "peanuts" - the rest is bubble wrap. No hard foam in corners, no spray-foam molded to shape for very expensive items - just peanuts and a little bubble wrap.

Pack it yourself, do it right, pay online, then drop off the package at the store at no charge. Your customer stands a much better chance of being happy.

With all due respect to Howard and the others who suggest calling them, they don't even have a number listed in the local directory. Maybe it's a 1 800 UPS or some such #.

For those who don't know how to use Google:

http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/contac ... svl=Footer

As a former Fedex Ground package handler, all I can say is that try as they may, there will always be some damaged packages. Considering that the UPS, Fedex and DHL handle something in the neighborhood of 10-20 MILLION packages PER DAY, (based on what goes through the Fedex hub facility I worked at), some damage is inevitable.

Regardless of carrier, the package handlers are under constant pressure from their managers to always go faster. Unloading a trailer must be done at 1000-1100 packages per hour...about one every 3 seconds or so, regardless of size or weight. Marking a package 'fragile' is totally meaningless. They all get the same treatment. Package handlers don't know or even care what's in a box...it's just another box to get out of there.

In 20 words or less, unless an item is packed to handle a 3-5 foot drop to concrete, it's not sufficiently packed! While falling off a conveyor belt is rare due to the 12-15" high side walls, heavier packages, 70 pounds or more, will always be handled more roughly due to their weight. Unusual size or shape packages get damaged more frequently than "nice" rectangular boxes.

From my own observation, about 30-40% of all damaged packages are the result of poor packaging...perhaps more. 10-20% the result of the automatic sorting system, and the rest, regretably, due to poor handling by unloaders and/or loaders. Whether your package gets damaged or not is a crapshoot with all carriers. I've seen commercial shippers ship 40-50 identical 50 pound packages every day and maybe 1-2 per day will may need re-taping, another shipper ships 100 or more 20 pound packages per day, and 15-20 had one or more small broken plastic jars of liquid inside every day until they redesigned their packaging.

In short, it's impossible to guarantee that even the best packaged item(s) will not get damaged. With heavier items such as guitars and amplifiers, popcorn is very insufficient packaging. Rigid sytrofoam and very secure cardboard is the best over 50 pounds or so. As far as leaving the guitar case handle sticking out, it's nice for handling/carrying the package, but if it goes up into the automatic sorter, it could get damaged if actually sticking out, rather than folding flat.

I worked for UPS for 10 years, at one of the largest hubs, in Lawnside NJ. I worked every job there, except for supervisor. I worked in Damages. And for the last 2 1/2 yrs., I worked in Quality Control. As far as damages, I've seen guys THROW packages 20-30 feet to a belt over another belt. That did not happen often though, and if the particular guy who did that was caught, he would've been fired. At the beginning of the twilight operation, for about the first 1/2 hour or so, the belts would be overloaded because the overzealous young studs were pumped up and the adrenaline was highest as opposed to later in the night, so consequently the packages would come down the main sort aisle in heaps, where they would fall off the belt onto the grate where you stood sorting; and finally, many times during the night there would be jams on conveyors high up, some thirty feet off the floor, especially at corners, and they would come crashing down onto the concrete.
Having said all that, the MAIN reason for damages was/is due to INADEQUATE packing. We actually had a company that shipped cases of ball bearings that were breaking open on a daily basis, spewing hundreds of 1/2" bearings all over the place. A (UPS) rep called the company constantly telling them to pack them better, but they refused, saying that it was UPS' responsibility to handle them carefully. Which is true. But it's in the sender's best interest to pack as well as possible for his own sake. Claims are a MAJOR issue, costing in the millions.
I've sent many things through UPS since after leaving there (1989) and never needed to make a claim. I sent my first steel, a double 10, to Cal., and it got there fine. However, I did spend some money, about $25, on 1" foam insulation, and a lot of cardboard, to pack it, all the while keeping in mind my 10 years working there....

On the subject of exposed handles:

Seems as though the desirability of this might depend on the type of handle, as well as the manner of packing the carton. If the case is surrounded on all sides by 1" (or more) styrofoam and the handle is a rubber strap handle that retracts flat against the case, as on many present-day steel cases, a cutout for the handle certainly doesn't expose the handle itself to any risk, but I don't know how much risk there is of the hole itself catching on something during mechanical handling, and possibly causing a fall.

Rick Vizzi wrote: I worked in Damages.

Well see, there's the problem right there. They've been HIRING people to damage packages!

On the issue of exposed handles, when I packed, the handles were actually recessed perhaps an inch or more so it certainly was not protruding out.

lets me restate, I have received damaged goods from UPS, very small amount, and some goods have been received damaged that I sent, a small amount, Never did I have a claim issue.

On the other hand , I have had major issues with the US Post Office for damage and missing items which were Insured and tracked with delivery confirmation.

happy shipping..

tp

finally got to talk to my UPS driver today ad asked him about the handles. I asked if he ever saw the conveyor belts and the sorting rooms and such and he said yes he does everyday.

With regard to the handles on our pedal steel cases, he said the following:
-packages that weigh as much as our steels do NOT get thrown or tossed as they are simply too heavy to do that without injury. They do however occasional fall forward from an upright position or topple on their side and should be packaged to withstand such a fall.
-packages that weigh as much as our steels never see the conveyor belts. They are instead carried by hand and placed on what he called "small trains" that then move them around...I am picturing something like an aircarft baggage handlers "train" of carts but much smaller.
-he didnt think a handle on his end was particularly helpful with something that heavy on.
-he emphsized that if these things are getting damaged IN the cases themselves...that something is wrong with the case and perhaps more packing inside the case itself is needed (I agree).
-he wasnt aware of holes for handles voiding claims (but he doesnt work in claims remember), nor was he aware of any problem with the insurance ro this "perceived value" scam i saw on the news. he said you pay insurance...they pay you what yu insured it for if it gets damged or lost, which is of course how any honest person understands the word "insurance".

to sum it up, he was anti handle exposed over-all. A stark contrast to my fedex drivers preference.

just two drivers opinions...take em for what they are worth to you. YMMV as always.

Mr Gleespen:
I don't think your response is very funny. A smiley face doesn't make a comment harmless.

The following is a post from the Gearpage about a 6 string guitar made by a custom luthier named Bill Chapin. Bill makes some amazing guitars. He shipped this one via UPS. Bill's a friend of mine so I know the story is truthful.
"
Last August, UPS “failed” to deliver my Chapin Stratahoula. It was scanned into their facility within a couple miles of my office and out to the truck for delivery and then just disappeared. The claims process involved many lies and misdirection, much frustration, and many hours of phone calls and documenting. 4 months later, after attempting to pay Bill Chapin only for the materials (sorta like paying DaVinci for the oil paint), UPS paid the insurance claim.

On March 24, Patty of DAG called me to tell me the guitar was on Ebay. Item #380008611836 was being sold by an auction house called Cargo Largo. Unfortunately, we were unable to get a bid in and it was sold out from under us.

We assume UPS found the guitar and gave it to Cargo Largo without bothering to contact either Bill Chapin or myself. While this was legal, it wasn’t right. It’s not like it would have been a huge effort to link this very unique guitar back to Bill or myself. It shows a complete lack of effort to find the item and return it to its rightful owner.

If Cargo Largo got the guitar from an individual, then that proves theft. A former UPS employee told me boxes rarely are lost. And this was a big box! She also told me she regularly saw employees keep pre-printed labels in their pockets. When they saw something they liked, they’d put their label on it and “redirect” it to their location.

Regardless, we’ve been ripped off not once but twice by UPS."

1) how a would anyone know whats in a box out of thousands of boxes and thousands of labels ?

2)How many labels can a UPS guy fit in his pocket ?

3) The few times I had Steels delivered to the house the UPS guys carried them from the truck TO the house using the handles that were available .

4) the few times I shipped Steels, the counter folks used the exposed handle to carry the Steel back into the staging area after they scanned it.

I'm not arguing FOR handles exposed just stating the obvious that when a 70 pound something or other showed up they took advantage of the option.

I shipped approx 20 packages this month, if UPS starts to fail on a regular basis I will go to another carrier. probably the biggest issue for me is convenience and availability to drop off packages at multiple locations, and I am not talking about MAILboxes types of places, I am talking about exclusive UPS agents/stores , HUBS, Office Depot, Staples etc.

I'm with Tony here (except for our handle disagreement, which is a minor thing, really).

As far as employees slapping labels on boxes and redirecting shipments, that's preposterous! To add to what Tony said, how (especially processing thousands of boxes VERY quickly) is someone going to 1)recognize what's in the box, 2) slap a label on AND create another bar code tag (there's a second label on almost every box that's applied during processing),3) cover the original label in an inconspicuous manner - and not get caught when there are security cameras throughout UPS (and DHL, and FedEx, and every other shipper I've been to...and I've been in a LOT of them on business) warehouses, and 4) make it to their car with the package (having to pass through security)or drive past the gate out of the secure shipping area, where all vehicles are checked for packages by security when leaving?

And you think they GAVE it to Cargo Largo? How? And how is this supposedly "legal"?? Where's the "lost and found" department that handles that stuff, and how is Cargo Largo "given" something?

Sorry, but that sounds like total fiction. And I'd guess the delays in claim processing were the usual problem - the SHIPPER didn't file the claim right away, it was filed by the receiving party...who can't.

A lost shipment is the easiest claim for them to handle - no inspections, nothing but a tracer with no proof of delivery. If there's no tracer on file, they pay right away, unless there's a valuable item involved and the value needs verification (which is fair - would you blindly hand out $2,000 for an insured item without verifying it's WORTH that?

Which brings up the reason SOME claims get delayed - someone insures a shipped item for 5 times its value, packs it badly intentionally (or breaks the item in advance), then wants a full reimbursement. Those things are fraud - and they DO happen. I can commiserate with every shipper over those situations - and if they smell a rat, I don't blame them for being careful.

ESPECIALLY since I just don't seem to have problems when I insure for correct amounts, use fresh packing materials in most cases, and pack REALLY well. Then when I DO have a claim, there's no questions.

Jim, why would you accuse me, Bill Chapin, and the buyer of the custom guitar of making this up? You don't know any of us. I'm just trying to warn folks of what happened. Bill Chapin builds custom instruments that sell upwards of $3000 or more. Guys that want them are willing to wait over year to get them. Bill shipped it and filed the claim and spent hours on the phone trying to resolve it and all he got in return after using UPS for years for his shipping was the run-around. He insured the guitar for his standard selling price. They lost it and then tried to hose him on the insurance. Those are the facts.
UPS has screwed me around on every damaged item I've ever filed a claim on. I always bubble wrap, double and sometimes triple box. Not that it matters anymore, as I said earlier. I wouldn't use UPS if the shipping was free.

Rick Vizzi wrote:Mr Gleespen:
I don't think your response is very funny. A smiley face doesn't make a comment harmless.

Oh well, I guess some jokes fall flat. Not every one can be a zinger.

That's a wink up there, not a smile. It means I'm joking. You didn't think I actually thought UPS has a department dedicated to damaging packages, did you?

Anyway, I am sorry that you took offense. The typewritten word sometimes fails to convey ideas in the intended way.

To all: sorry about the digression. Back to UPS and their propensity to smash.

This is why I'm not looking forward to shipping my steel ever.

They lost it and then tried to hose him on the insurance. Those are the facts.

Steve, the problem is you're ranting with no details. "Hosing" doesn't say exactly what happened. "Gave it to Cargo Largo" makes no sense, but you haven't clarified that at all - how it could happen or explained your statement that it's "legal". You anecdote about employees using labels to steal items is a pretty nasty accusation that 1) you can't back up, and 2) makes absolutely no sense to anyone who has ever been in a shipping facility...whether UPS or any other.

I do not doubt there was some kind of hassle - but WHAT the hassle was (what you call "lies and misdirection") is not explained in any detail, and those of us who have dealt with them and other shippers thousands of times without "lies and misdirection" etc seem to discover, when an entire story is laid out, that there was something not done correctly by the shipping party - either in packing, proof of value for insurance purposes, or in communication.

Instead of making inflammatory statements, why don't you present exact details of what you KNOW - and not load your post with other things that are third-person stories or things you DON'T know? Then maybe those of us who DON'T have problems can help others prevent the kind of problems you apparently had.

Complaints without details aren't helpful - and with the amount of hipping I do, believe me - I WANT to hear the exact details of problems so I can avoid them.

Sidebar - Tony, now that I understand the handles DON'T protrude from the case it makes much more sense. It sounds like television-type boxing, but with a better handle. I still prefer no holes in packaging, but what you're doing makes sense to me now.

Rick Vizzi wrote:Mr Gleespen:
I don't think your response is very funny. A smiley face doesn't make a comment harmless.

I thought it was very funny. Cant please em all I guess eh Pat? Geez...tough crowd.



Hmm...a package was lost by UPS, then showed up on ebay....well now that IS a dilly of a pickle.
There are dishonorable people in any large operation i guess....but its hard to beleive theft is a common occurance at UPS. But im just some guy typing on the internet..what do i know?

uhhmm..Maybe UPS should have BID on the EBAY item , won it, then delivered it to where it was supposed to go in the first place !

I love it when a plan comes together

If i see the ups guy today ...I'll ask him what happens to packages where all the labels come off (highly unlikely) or are otherwise undeliverable and with no contact info, or if there is a "dead letter office" or something similar and I will relate the ebay story to him and see if he has any insight as to what he thinks may have happened in this case.

btw-we always put a little card with our address and contact info INSIDE every package we sent in case the labels were lost or destroyed...course that wont stop a dishonest person from stealing

heres what I was told:
-driver theft is VERY uncommon, but it does happen.
Most drivers value their employment and freedom enough not to risk termination and jail for the theft of a $1000 guitar but as we all know there are always a few loons out there in every crew. An example was given of a driver who made deliveries to the local Best Buy. Best Buy reported that of a shipment of 50 camcorders only 48 were received. Private detectives were called in to do surveillance on the driver who was spotted placing the missing camcorder boxes in his home. Next day at work the cops were wating for the driver.

so what happend to this guitar that ended up on ebay?
well...its anyones guess really but the driver said the most likely scenario was that the package was not designated for signature delivery, was left on a doorstep and stolen from there. Do i buy this? well yes and no...it doesnt explain the lack of delivery info and that is troubling. I have seen open UPS trucks on the streets of manhattan left unattended....this is a possibilty for theft. who knows?

My business ships 3-5 hundred packages a year. When one gets lost or damaged and a claim is collected, Cargo Largo typically ends up with the item to sell for UPS. Here is an interesting article you might want to read, take it for what it's worth...James

http://www.unitedpackagesmashers.com/in ... onnection/

James.....wow

so from your article it appears...driver thefts dont end up at cargo largo...undeliverables do. I cant and wont beleive that a company would intentionally make items undeliverable so that they could somehow profit from fencing em on ebay. Thats just too far fetched. Incompetent and lazy? sure maybe...but intentional theft for resale on a company-wide scale? unilikely to the extreme

The question then is how does a package scanned and on the truck for delivery end up as undeliverable, untraceable, unreturnable? only answer I can think of is label gets ripped completely off and lost....and ven then you'd still have a record of the packages weight and dimensions and could conceivably retrace it backwards from that info and find the sender or recipient info.

bizarro wolrd...I hope I never have to deal with it personally with one of my items.

About 3 years ago I had a Sadowsky bass coming via UPS Ground that disappeared off the radar for about 7 weeks (normal delivery time: 5 days)...then finally one day it showed up from "UPS Corporate Overgoods Warehouse"...I guess it didn't quite make it to Cargo Largo