The Steel Guitar Forum

Brad Sarno wrote:I think the tube modeling devices will likely get the closest. The FET stuff like the Evans, while a great preamp, doesn't sound tubey to me at all. Boss has their COSM based stuff, Vox has theirs, and Line 6 has it going on as they kind of dominate the market. I know there are others too. What I've found is that while they've done great job modeling the sound of tube amp distortion, they've all fallen kind of short when it comes to modeling super clean tube gear. I guess that's hard to do because it's kind of a subtle thing, and there isn't much demand for it from guitarists. I don't have a lot of experience with it, but the best I ever found was the PodXT's model of a '59 Fender Bassman set to run real clean. That's a pretty good sound for steel.


Brad

Brad,

How do you go about tweaking the '59 Bassman setting to run clean?

I guess some people may have missed the point of my post here.

I haven't necessarily tried to avoid the question - which I fully understand! I just question whether what your looking for is actually the pre-amp sound or whether you are after either the power amp or the interaction between power and pre amp. It's very hard to tell the difference because it is likely that when you heard an all tube pre-amp sounding great, it was also with an all tube power amp!

Let me put it another way - why botherputting all your effort into sourcing a pre-amp that makes things sound like an all tube system when it is actually the power amp section that is more important?

Over to those who are in the know.....

By the way, has anyone heard the Vox Supreme which sounds pretty valvey to me - different but beautiful in its own way!

I would have figured there would be some people talking about the PODXT rack mount. I know some of you guys are using this unit. I was looking at one today, and wondering how user friendly the programing was?

I think we can assume that Keith means (out of the thousands of possibilities) the basic Fender type guitar pre-amp that most steelers use if they use a tube pre; Revelation, Boogie, Alembic and the like.

Fender, Boogie, Alembic, and the other "typical" guitar preamps are quite different. Boogie pioneered the multiple-cascading-gain preamp - a completely different animal than, let's say, the traditional clean preamp that Fender and many others used. But even Fender used significantly different preamp circuits over the years, and some of them sound very different from each other.

I agree with Brad that the modelers sound the most "tubey". IMO, this is because they explicitly model the entire amplifier chain - preamp + power amp. As he says:

The FET stuff like the Evans, while a great preamp, doesn't sound tubey to me at all.

I completely agree. I believe the reason is that the sound most of us who use tubes consider "tubey" is a result of the power section, as Simon argues. I think it's the interaction of the preamp and the tube power section that really produces the "tube sound" I care about.

I don't own one of the rack-mount Pod XTs, but I did fiddle around for a while with one - I thought it was pretty easy to work with - pretty much the standard Pod interface for setting patches. But for that kinda dough, I'd spend a bit more and get a Revelation. I agree with the commercial that says, "Ain't nothin' like the real thing, baby."

Here is the original question:

Solid state pre-amp that comes closest to tube pre-amp sound ?

And as I think Simon, Dave, I and some others have tried to say is - how do you INTERPRET the question? What IS a tube preamp sound?

And the reason for the questions regarding interpretation is because most (yes - most) guitar players...steel or 6-string...have "tube preamp" ingrained in them from the "Real Tube" and other 12AX7-based preamps that were pushed heavily early in the re-emergence of tube amps.

Somehow the misconception got quoted as gospel - throw a 12AX7 in front of a solid-state amp and it'll sound like a (Fender, Marshall, Vox...).

Instead, we ended up with a bunch of tube gain-stage buzzbombs sounding like angry bees in a beer can run into a sterile SS power section that doesn't "breath"...no sag, no transformer saturation, no 5-minute bias tweaks to run it real hot for a short session.

So the point of the answers is - "what is the question?"

When you're using an amp modeler, it pays to remember that they're mostly designed for people who want distortion. Therefore, the little low-powered amp models like the Fender Bassman & Deluxe are going to distort earliest. I get the best clean sound out of the high-powered, 100-watt models like the Hiwatt, 1968 Marshall, and Mesa Boogie MkII, but with the gain set low like 20-30%, certainly no more than a third up unless you want to distort. The Vox AC30 models are real clean too, if the gain's under control. The Hiwatt's my first choice - clean loud & bright, like a steel amp or something.... I'd love to try a real one with a PSG.

After a while I start just ignoring their labels and just try to make it sound good, however and wherever. Since a tube amp has some natural compression, it can help to put in just a little bit, like 22 or 30 on a scale of 1-99.

How do you go about tweaking the '59 Bassman setting to run clean?

First thing is back off the Gain control. I run mine all the way down. I use either that '59 setting
or the Twin Reverb. You can experiment with different speaker cabinet settings as well.

Keith.

I am a long time Pod user.

I tried a rack mount, but took it back the next day. It acted for some reason like a huge RF antenna.

Maybe a unit problem, but I haven't had the same problems with either my xt or xtLive. Less junk to pick up RF interference(?).

There's STILL no way to have your compressor BEFORE the volume pedal, and have it controllable to the degree that most compressor or overdrive users like it in the xt. Not unless you want to replace your Hilton with a "midi expression pedal". Not me, thanks..

The good news for me is that I don't use compression or OD on the PSG, and I use the xt Live VP when space allows doubling on tele, which allows the Compressor and Distortion before the xtLive pedal which I stand up and use when I play tele. On the xtPro and xt live the "volume" is knob controlled.

A little more hit and miss.

Dialing one in or "programming" it is a step by step process, and often live settings are not that easily matched in the basement "setup".

Once tweaked for live performance levels a simple "save button" locks your settings in. PLENTY of banks to save and name setting for ie: "MooseLowV" "JamBallsOut", "NeighbNghtmre" "Recording", etc. Dozens of places to save channel settings and differing defaults.

Using it after it's set up is TOTALLY EASY. Your presets don't change.

I read of the manual gives you the "models" of the compressors, delays, ODs, and MOST of the other functions. I don't see what the "Tube Preamp" is 24 bit digitally modelled after.

The "Vetta Comp" is said to be modelled after a "studio tube compressor", but is kind of hazy. It works better than the "blue or red" comps, and is separate from the other two, with a separate button.

I do know that The sound I've found for it is probably a lot more convincing for a simple 12Axxx than it is for the whole 5+ tube "tube amp modelers". Simple math.

If all I wanted was a "tube preamp" SS "pedal", I don't see how you could improve on the xt. Or at least I haven't heard it yet.

Even the Pocket Pod, which has 2.0/16bit guts has some pretty good effects, though the reverb is as sucky as peavey's.

Confused?



EJL

After many hours of experimenting, I used Brad Sarno's session 400 tone stack numbers and programmed it into the Digitech Gen3. Used the Fender Black Face amp model and 1965 1-12 speaker cabinet model. Then dialed in the tone settings. It's a great setup for direct to board or recorder.

They are pricey, but I have never played thru anything I like better than this preamp, Played thru one with no effects and it was the best sound I have ever heard. I have owned a Walker Stereo Steel preamp for Several years and it is Great, but the Joe Meek VC1Q microphone Preamp is Head and shoulders above it. They got for around $650 or so on ebay (used). You might luck out and find one in a pawn shop, but the pawn shop operators are getting smarter and selling a lot of equipment on ebay now and not doing any dealing like was done in the past. They are also 2 rack spaces high and take up a lot of room, nothing but super tone and a terrific compressor that you will never know is there until you switch it out.