How many of you use a volume pedal?

Bill Wynne · Post by **Bill Wynne** » 20 Feb 2008 7:13 am

Rick Aiello wrote:In my normal way of doing things around here ...

You can't argue with science!

The reason that Jerry was so openly welcomed into the Hawaiian music inner sanctum was just as you put it - "subtle beauty." Nothing overdone. Everything just enough. Fine to use the pedal when nobody can really detect you're using it. That's art.

I am going to go throw mine away now... (I'd volunteer it to a member of this forum but the pot is busted anyway.)

Al Terhune · Post by **Al Terhune** » 20 Feb 2008 7:51 am

I'm sure ...

Compare sonograms and/or waveforms ... from sampled instruments ... it's very obvious.

It's not technique ... it's simply physics ...

Actually, Rick, it is technique. I believe "thou doth protest too loudly."

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 20 Feb 2008 7:53 am

Actually, Rick, it is technique. I believe "thou doth protest too loudly."

Whatever you say , pal ...

Al Terhune · Post by **Al Terhune** » 20 Feb 2008 7:55 am

Further, if you would post a wavelength of a typical vocal, you'll see that the initial attacks are spiked, as well (whereas you think they aren't as spiked as a lap steel sans volume pedal), and we do know, I believe, that Jerry Byrd was a huge advocate of playing steel guitar like you would sing a song.

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 20 Feb 2008 8:44 am

Al Terhune wrote:Further, if you would post a wavelength of a typical vocal, you'll see that the initial attacks are spiked, as well (whereas you think they aren't as spiked as a lap steel sans volume pedal), and we do know, I believe, that Jerry Byrd was a huge advocate of playing steel guitar like you would sing a song.

Ok ... I'll accommodate your request ...

How 'bout alittle ... Mel Torme

No "attack transients" ... just a smooth "welling" up of sound.

Some of the more abrupt dB changes you see ... like the spike between "canes ... on" ...

Is the string accompaniment ...

Al Terhune · Post by **Al Terhune** » 20 Feb 2008 9:10 am

This is actually an interesting debate. I personally see spikes on the attacks in these wavelengths -- and I hear them with my ears. They're plainly there. Even when you listen you hear the "p" and "c" having a nice spike -- but that's, I reckon, left to taste and style. There should be initial attacks with many notes -- that's just dynamics (as Jerry Byrd claimed should be duplicated with a steel imitating a vocal). A vocal with no fluctuation or attack would be...extremely boring.

Plus, you can't deny that this song, when mixed and mastered, had compression used, which would also soften the attack of everything, anyway -- so we're not hearing the natural take of his voice. If we were to see the track of just his vocal, no reverb, no compression, you'd see and hear spikes just like in a lap steel with no volume pedal (I believe, anyway).

I don't claim to play the lap steel and it sound like someone who uses a volume pedal; I personally just don't feel challenged by that sound, and, again, a lap steel with no dynamics is...boring. I like the rawness of those players who don't use a volume pedal; I also like Jerry Byrd, too, but...for me, it's just too clean -- but I still appreciate what he can do with that darn bar.

That said, I know from personal experience that good technique without a volume pedal on lap steel can help with lessening initial attacks. Nothing works like a compressor, which is what a volume pedal is (a mechanical compressor), but that's, as you say, simple deduction.

Rick, I enjoy your playing, I enjoy my playing, Jerry Byrd's, Don Helm's, etc., and to be honest with you, when I mix down my tracks, I use a limiter for the entire mix, so I am getting some compression on the lap, which means I'm not totally free of lessening the attack purely by my fantastic (ha!) skill.

With respect.

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 20 Feb 2008 10:17 am

All instruments (including the human voice) ... have characteristic "sound envelopes" ... when a pitch is produced.

An attack period ...a sustain period ... and a decay period.

Put them together ... and you have that instrument's "Timbre".

But every instrument's "sound envelope" profile ... will be different ... hence different timbres.

A violin and a cello will have profiles that are more closely related than ... say ...

A violin and a banjo.

As far as steel guitar and human voice ...

While the sustain and decay periods of a steel guitar (acoustic or electric) ... can be more "human like" than many instruments (basically a function of vibrato) ... hence it being so readily adopted by early Hawaiian musicians ...

The attack profile of a steel guitar ... specifically the transient sound produced (which lasts bout 0.005 seconds) when the picks hit the string ...

Will be markedly dissimilar to ... a singers attack profile ... as air is forced over tissue.

I've done my best to show that here ... with my equipment, samples and ability.

I'll be glad to run and/or post a sample (waveform & full spectral analysis) of ...

A singer singing an A 220 note ...

And that same A 220 note being played on a tricone, frypan, stringmaster ... whatever ...

I just can't sing ... at all !!!

Michael Papenburg · Post by **Michael Papenburg** » 20 Feb 2008 10:46 am

I personally use a volume pedal all the time. The longer that I play, though, the less I seem to "need" it. I like the sound of pads behind a vocalist on occasion so it is mostly used for that along with giving the impression of more sustain.

A few months ago I played a benefit concert in Muir Woods. When I arrived at the gig, I realized that the string on my volume pedal had broken. I panicked at first but quickly adapted to playing without the pedal. There were a few songs where it would have been nice to use some swells but I ended up being happy with how things turned out.

I believe that this was a good experience for me overall. Now, I tend to practice without a volume pedal and find that it has helped my overall technique. That being said, I feel that it can take years to use a volume pedal gracefully.

Al Terhune · Post by **Al Terhune** » 20 Feb 2008 11:25 am

Michael Papenburg wrote:That being said, I feel that it can take years to use a volume pedal gracefully.

No kidding. This is probably what made me go pedal-less and then discover the load it placed on my hands and technique, and appreciation for the sound of a steel without the pedal. Especially with pedal steel, trying to work the right knee levers and pedal at the same time -- and the height it raises your knee to on the steel, sheesh!

Rick, what you say obviously must make sense, but my ears tell me something else. The bottom line is that you're happy with the pedal (like most other steelers, it appears), and I'm happy without it. Takes all kinds.

Harry Dietrich · Post by **Harry Dietrich** » 20 Feb 2008 12:32 pm

I don't use one now, but I used to.

$:\$

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 20 Feb 2008 2:26 pm

Rick, what you say obviously must make sense, but my ears tell me something else.

OK ... I'll try a slightly different approach (can't help it ... it's the teacher in me) ...

Here is the waveform (intensity vs time) for an acapella vocal ... with a steel entering ...

Notice the "lack" of intensity when the words are initially sung ... no "sharp increases" ... no "blockish" shape to the waveform. ...

Then there is a dramatic rise in intensity ... as the notes are being held ... very round and full ...

Then a steel guitar enters ... and argeggios a chord ...

The transients from the steel ... are very clearly seen ... superimposed over the sustained vocal note.

Now listen to it ...Click Here

If you go back and look at JB's acapella Kauai Beauty ...

You'll see/hear how most every note starts as a "dramatic increase" in intensity ... very "blockish" in comparison to the vocalist ...

Even though JB trys ... even he can't come close to the "beautifully smooth" ...

Attack - sustain - decay ... as seen/heard in the above vocal.

Thats the best I can do ... with alittle help from the HSGA forum

Bill Brummett · Post by **Bill Brummett** » 20 Feb 2008 2:34 pm

Most pedal steelers use the volume pedal very sparingly. Probably because -- as someone else here pointed out -- it really interferes with your right knee lever use. I know I find that to be true, but then I'm not a super pedal player. Since I use the pedal heavily on non-pedal, I sometimes have trouble making the transition.

There's an excellent pedal steeler from California named Frank Carter who really has the volume pedal down to perfection. He uses it heavily, sometimes even for "blocking", and his stuff is so smooth it sends chills up your spine. I asked him about it and he said..."well I figured the thing was made to use, so I use it and I liked the way it helped me...."

Al Terhune · Post by **Al Terhune** » 20 Feb 2008 3:43 pm

Rick, I do appreciate your trying to get me to see your point of view. You have to admit that you're using some very subtle vocal waveforms. Now, I record all the time on Pro Tools, so vocal waveforms are not new to me, and I can tell you that my vocal waveforms have very distinct attack points -- and look nothing like the one you've given as an example with the Hawaiian singer. Even Mel's waveform is a rather tame vocal which would more easily prove your point than using a more acrobatic singer (and I know you know this -- you're a smart dude). I do agree that a singer can create a fairly stable waveform that a lap cannot do, but that's not a typical vocal take. Most vocal waveforms I've seen have distinct attack points, not as sharp (with the immediate drop-off -- as you pointed out, and I agree) as a lap steel, but that's a waveform that's magnified. Shrink it down to real time and the eye really sees no difference. It's all in the ear, truly. To the human ear, there's not that much difference in attack and dissipation of a vocal and lap -- and, again, if the lap has good volume coming out of the amp and good sustain -- and good technique on picking it nonaggresively. I have a very soft touch with my playing, which I guess developed from not having a volume pedal, so my attacks are not that much higher than what follows. Not all the time -- many times I want the dynamics of a sharp attack.

There are obvious things you can't do in a song without a volume pedal, can't deny it. But the style I do, which is traditional folk, Americana, blah-blah-blah, doesn't need whispy, volume-controlled lap or pedal steel.

Personally, I like that initial attack of a lap steel when you're hitting each note. Let's you know it's there! It's a sound, man. It makes me think of all the great steelers who's style did not utilize the volume pedal. Like I said, you and I belong to different camps. You're a little more tasteful, and I'm a little more hillbilly. I think that's a fairly good way to describe the styles of Jerry verses Don, eh?

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 20 Feb 2008 4:02 pm

Rick, I do appreciate your trying to get me to see your point of view. You have to admit that you're using some very subtle vocal waveforms. Now, I record all the time on Pro Tools, so vocal waveforms are not new to me, and I can tell you that my vocal waveforms have very distinct attack points -- and look nothing like the one you've given as an example with the Hawaiian singer. Even Mel's waveform is a rather tame vocal which would more easily prove your point than using a more acrobatic singer

I wasn't trying to "pick and choose" vocalists ... to prove any point.

Just picked ones that I enjoy listening to ... Mel and our own Bill Wynne.

Bill's ending to that tune had a nice "steel entry" that I thought may prove a point though ... $:\$

I could have chosen any of Bill's recordings ... falsetto or otherwise ... and his waveforms would have been just as smooth, round and full ...

He's a top notch vocalist.

I gave it my best shot ... but, I'll agree that there are many vocalist who are not as "smooth" as Bill and Mel ... and steel players who are not smooth as Jerry Byrd ...

Anyway ... this whole thing started with me responding to Don Woods ... telling him I like a VP to "tame" the attack transient ... not to increase sustain.

That's all ...

As you say ... to each his own ...

Roman Sonnleitner · Post by **Roman Sonnleitner** » 20 Feb 2008 4:14 pm

Here's a great example of what can be done with a lap steel and a vol. pedal, from one of my favorite bands:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RRkrccHgNI

Now, I know this is not the kind of music most of the people on this forum will be going for, but hey, there's a whole world of lap steel playing outside of Hawaiian music and Western Swing....

Al Terhune · Post by **Al Terhune** » 20 Feb 2008 5:02 pm

Rick: agreed.

Roman: I WANT to love Wilco so much. Jeff's latest outing is one of his best, but I also think they are one of the most over-rated bands in the world. And this particular lap style could easily be done with the volume control on the lap, without the pedal. But your point is well-made: This type of "fading in" can only be done by striking the strings with the volume off and then turning it up. You can't replicate this by technique alone. If you were recording, you could manipulate it with a volume envelope, which I guess is no more cheating than using a volume control...

James Mayer · Post by **James Mayer** » 20 Feb 2008 5:20 pm

He's playing so slowly that an auto-swell effect could work.

Bill Wynne · Post by **Bill Wynne** » 20 Feb 2008 7:12 pm

Rick Aiello wrote:Just picked ones that I enjoy listening to ... Mel and our own Bill Wynne.

Bill's ending to that tune had a nice "steel entry" that I thought may prove a point though ... $:\$

I could have chosen any of Bill's recordings ... falsetto or otherwise ... and his waveforms would have been just as smooth, round and full ...

He's a top notch vocalist.

I'm not sure I am a top notch vocalist. But at least now I know I am a damned fine looking waveform.

I needed that today! Thanks!

Ron Whitfield · Post by **Ron Whitfield** » 20 Feb 2008 7:28 pm

Roman, thanx for the Wilco cut. I dig that band, and as far as them being over-rated, they're so under the radar for the masses that I'd be surprised if they were rated at all.

Rick, video proof or no, to Jerry, it was 'do as I say, not as I do'. By the age of video, he had learned all his lessons, the hard way, and used the VP a lot as you described, but very judisciously and obviously with great taste.
Thanx for Kauai Beauty.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 20 Feb 2008 8:11 pm

I gave up using mine years ago. I also rarely play with fingerpicks.

Terry Farmer · Post by **Terry Farmer** » 20 Feb 2008 8:13 pm

I'm going to ask an ignorant question here. What is meant by "padding" behind a vocalist? I've seen that term used quite a bit on the forum but remain clueless.

Thanks.

Michael Papenburg · Post by **Michael Papenburg** » 20 Feb 2008 10:15 pm

I would define "padding" as swelling in chords so that they sustain like a string section. It provides a nice simple bed for a vocalist to sing over. I often use a bit of delay to help this along.

Bill Wynne · Post by **Bill Wynne** » 21 Feb 2008 5:19 am

Ron Whitfield wrote:Thanx for Kauai Beauty.

Had you not heard that before? It is buried on a CD entitled `Ukulele Stylings - Volume 2. Jerry accompanied many of the uke players on their tunes, and so they tacked on this solo steel piece at the end of the album.

And it's one of his most beautiful works.

I will play this and a lot more obscure Byrd on my radio show on March 2nd and 9th - two 2-hour specials celebrating the birthday of Jerry Byrd. I have much more rare material than this (used by permission of Jack Byrd). I am also going to dive into the dozens of collaborations Jerry did with some of Hawai`i's great vocalists - many of which are out of print.

Bill Wynne · Post by **Bill Wynne** » 21 Feb 2008 5:22 am

Alan Brookes wrote:I gave up using mine years ago. I also rarely play with fingerpicks.

Oh, thank heavens you said that! I thought I was the only one (and I have been criticized for it publicly).

I go back and forth from playing fingerstyle guitar to steel guitar. I found it very difficult to go from playing without picks fingerstyle to playing with picks on the steel. It was like trying on a different set of fingers.

Now I sometimes use picks for slow tunes, but for fast tunes, they just get in the way.

Carroll Hale · Post by **Carroll Hale** » 21 Feb 2008 5:38 am

can someone explain why the pages on this thread will not fit on my monitor screen...I have to scroll to the right to see the rest of each one....
is it me...or just this thread...