The Steel Guitar Forum

Don

this thread in not intended to be a music lesson
that will just add to a rookies confusion

it is intended for tid bits of information
to help the new guys get past
the mental blocks we all have had

The problem is that the older players even though they are some really good players out there really have forgot what it was like when they picked up the steel for the first time having no clue. I'm sure that there were not really many guys that picked the steel up or any other instrument for that matter and 1, 2, 3, new what to do!

This thread is a good thread. The problem is most of the over 3 year players out there are talking to over 3 year players and not to the beginners!

Obviously, the beginner is expected to know, but the fact is they don't know and have no clue! Like some of the answers I've got in another thread players will say: "I don't know what chord or note I play, I just play it!" A real good answer for a beginner, isn't it?

Like most of the responses in this thread, to a beginner most of what has been said mean totally nothing! Its like no one read the main issue of the thread.

"all the older (3 years or more) players:

what was the hardest thing for you to get in your head and how did you get thru it?"

Now go back and read the responses! It was at least a 2 part question:

1 what was your hardest thing for you; and,
2. how did you get it?

Now go back and read the responses again!

Then people wonder why beginners don't get it!

The players don't get it and they in most cases are not talking to a beginner who knows nothing but yet they are expected to know something, but what is the question?

I can remember years ago, Johnny Cash was asked if he ever studied music, music theory, if he could read music and his reply was: "...NO not most of my life anyway over the years I learned here or there or something to that effect! as far as theory goes again his reply was NO! Some of the old big recording artists where show some chords and whatever and 1, 2, 3, they caught on and wound up to be some of the great artists.

well thats enough to get an argument going in here I guess. However, it would help to know some of the early problems you guys have had that deals with beginning out learning the steel and how you over come them. Be nice if you were also more specific as well.

However, sooner or later the beginners, me included will figure it out one thing at a time.


Dean from NY

Well Pardon me Sir Calvin.. I'll not post anything over your head from now on.

to all the new guys

one of the hardest things i had to learn
was to stop worrying about all the tech. stuff
and just play the dang thing

when i was just about to give up
i got Jeffs sound tracks ( honky tonk heros )
found a few 3 chord songs, turned on the tracks
and just fought thru them
that first week it sounded like hell
but it (I) improved fast so..
(1) find a 3 chord song
(2) learn where all the places you can play them
(3) play them using all 3 picks till you can play them in time ..meaning 10,8 6 or 654 or 543
(4) play it only using 1 or 2 strings

one other thing:

its not how many chords you know ..
its how well you can play just a few

because you can make some really beautiful
music with just 3 chords

The problem is that the older players even though they are some really good players out there really have forgot what it was like when they picked up the steel for the first time having no clue.

Very true. Most of the time when you have an obstacle in learning, you find out what you need to know and then, as it is implanted into your memory, you forget what the obstacle was in the first place and move on. You're asking all of us "over 3 year" players to tell you all the problems you will most likely encounter and give you the answers ahead of time. It doesn't really work that way. What is going to happen is, you will come across a problem in your learning process, and at that time you need to inquire as to how people got through that specific problem. I've been playing 37 years, and I'll be danged if I can remember my early days of learning. I wish I could remember all stuff I forgot over the years.

One problem, as the newbies have pointed out, is that explainations can get very technical and will go over many heads. Sometimes questions are asked of the experienced players that are indeed a very technical question. We will try to explain it as simple as possible, but sometimes there is no simple answer. This occurs a lot when questions are asked that involve music theory. If you get an answer that is over your head, it should be your responsibility to seek out reading materials and learn. That's what most of us have done. Not that we won't try to help, but learning to play the steel guitar (or any instrument) involves more than just asking questions and hope that you get your entire music theory education that way. I only used theory as an example. It could just as well be the topic of how to wear your picks, blocking, pedal technique, etc...

to many times we (i) get to caught up in all the
technical stuff
a newbie just wants to play something...anything
just to get going
at this point he is not trying to be technicaly
perfect... that will come later
but in order to keep them from quiting
we need to help them get over the hump so to speak
sometime's it may be as simple as telling them
that to find a 7th ...just pick the 7 or 9 string

the block they might have may be that simple

If you are meaning what would be most valuable and helpful to a "raw" beginner who is just sitting down to his new steel guitar: forget all the crap about diminished, augumented and all the other theoretical jargon.

Get him a notationchart that shows him where a single string chord can be found and at which fret. Next, give him an older country song book that has the chord notations for each song. Have him hum the song IE; Your Cheating Heart, and find the string and fret placement for that particular chord; using a single string to get the feeling and ear for the chord that goes with the notes of the melody.

After the new player does this for about a month,he will be finding, on his own, the second and third string that goes along with that single string chord and start playing full chords for that song.

Calvin knowing theory is the same as learning another language. Not learning the tech stuff is the same as moving to france without learning the language first. You will stumble around until you eventually find what you are looking for.That struggle is WAY harder than learning the BASIC language first. Learn the language, then you can ask directions. It clicked for me when all the boring tech stuff I learned turns into application on my instruments. Try playing another instrument like the 6 string guitar or piano. All the theory is the same, (music theory is music theory) but the application is physically different since the tuning, method of fretting or getting sound etc. is different. It may make the theory click.

Theory is the knowledge of how something works. If you know why something works and how something works you can fix it. Get a beginners guide to music theory, do all the boring interval stuff, be confused as hell, buy another theory book and do it again until you understand what music theory really is.

I haven't been playing long but the best thing thats happened to me is getting some great advice and purchasing Jeff Newman's course "The Right Hand Alpha"
go to http://www.jeffran.com/aboutUs.php to buy the course.
If you don't live in USA and can't make the call, email Wanda at coopersmusic@hotmail.com
I gave her my credit card details and received the dvd and cd in 10 days.
Fantastic

In many cases the stumbling block has nothing to do with the Instrument, as what Steve is stating.

If someone buys a Piano and has no idea where Middle C is or even worse, what it MEANS, then the issue is not the Piano. No different than the Steel.

A minimum understanding of the language of MUSIC will get many folks well past the initial stumbling block very rapidly. For this instrument the initial stumbling block should be "Where is the dang chord " not "What is the dang chord"

We have all discussed this start up issue many many times and quite frankly a new student to MUSIC may have an overwhelming battle as opposed to a Musician who moves from another Instrument to the Steel. Two totally different and unrelated scenario's. Two different worlds.

So to the so called Newbie, if you are NEW to Music, make an attempt to learn some minimal knowledge of theory as this Instrument hits a home rune with the execution of the most basic I,IV and V chord progressions.Learn it once and you can apply it in any key.

If you have some previous experience or understanding of Music and are transferring it from Guitar or Piano then the path is to seek the layout of the Instrument so that you can apply what you already know. A person like this can be playing some basic music( probably very screatchy and pitchy ) very soon. It's the execution that will be the stumbling block.

Giving advise to new players is an awesome idea but not all new players are NEW musicians and they will not have the same obstacles.

Steve

with all due respect,
one of the Best steel players
on this planet does not know anything about music
when i asked him about it he said ( Quote)
just make it sound pretty (unquote)
the music theroy can help ( no argument here ) but its not required

WHEW !! Good thing I satarted back in "69" instead of today !! To much tech stuff for this old man--would never make it !! I stand by my post for a beginner.

Calvin, lets clarify something. . Every player that is participating in a musical structure such as a band knows exactly whats going on, they are not guessing. They are on the same TRAIL.

They may not be thinking or speaking in MUSICAL terminology but they are applying it.

Think of it this way, a band that is playing a song and giving solo's to the players , how is even remotely possible for a player who knows nothing about music to participate ?

they need to know what KEY, they need to know the song, the chord chart , if only in there heads and they need to know where the chords are on the fretboard. these are all elements of knowing some basic music and applying it to your Instrument regardless of what you play.

How would they do that if they knew nothing about Music ?

What happens if the singer goes to the bridge by mistake or forgets to sing the chorus ? This happens all the time and band players just "do it" because they are all listening and connected and totally understand the confines of the music they are playing at that moment. there is no guess work.

I can pretty much guarantee that whatever player you are referring to knows quite a bit about Music but doesn't live by "theoretical definitions" as they are playing out of an auto pilot zone without thinking about it.

You do not have to be a theoretical wiz to play GREAT music but you have to understand the basic elements or you will not be able to communicate in the language of playing music even at the most basic level.

Minimal basic theory does not "help" a player along the way, it's a requirement if you have set a path to playing music with other players. If you have no plans to ever play with other players than don't worry about the Music.

here is a perfect example, real world..

Band leader says , my throat is killing me , I'm gonna sing XXX in Ab rather than A and don't modulate after the bridge.

Ok Steel Man, kick it off in Ab...

How would you do that without some minimal knowledge?

To the beginners who might be reading this - using whatever reliable method you have, (book,dvd, teacher, observation of others) make sure that you have good right and left hand technique. Don't obsess over it, mostly make sure that you are not doing something really detrimental to making music. Choose 1 or 2 simple melodies, and Get Them Right. Don't sluff through the parts that challenge you, and don't worry about the theory. "If it sounds good, it is good." You have to create some music before you can effectively analyze it. Understanding musical theory is a worthy goal, but let your discoveries of new tunes and positions guide you.

my 2 cents

Oh yeah, and time spent playing the steel will advance your playing more than time spent staring at a computer monitor...

I have some advice even though I am still a newbie.But I am playing, so I guess I can offer something that might help. One of the first troublesome things for me was getting to a comfort zone with the bar (and picks). I would guess everybody went through this. This will one day be "second nature" to you and will only arrive after as Calvin says "playing it". My approach was to jump right in and start on a simple song that I already knew and liked. Maybe something that is played on mostly the same 3 strings This will give you a sense of accomplishment and gets you familiar with the same movements over and over, which is a fundamental of the instrument. I am fortunate in that I have been a guitar player for about 40 years so an understanding of theory sort of came built in but you can always go back and pick that up. Start playing and make some music first. Believe me...if you just play enough, you will start seeing theory show itself to you anyway.And you'll have"wow" moments that will reveal themselves to you : like when you accidentally discover or connect for the first time that the C pedal makes the 4th string unison to the 1st, and how that works with the chord you are playing. ONE MORE THING. Just a suggestion, but I started out practicing with no reverb and the volume pedal on the floor but bypassed by the steel. I did this so as not to cover up in any way my pitch with the bar placement. Reverb, especially can disguise pitch problems.

hi guys,

OK here goes,

50 year old "newbie-on-steel" here.

I've loved this sound all my life and finally got the nerve to try it this last year!
Since I have years of music background on many instruments, I still believe I need to memorize the whole neck just like piano, guitar, mandolin/violin & ukelele. Then memorize how the neck morphs with pedal & levers. Very cool process for sure.

OH, did I forget PRACTICE !!!

thanks to all for the insights & help !

i realize that its hard for us
to put ourselves back to a raw newbies level
but in order to help them we have to make an effort to do so.

we have to help them understand that all this
talk about music boils down to
(1) finding the chord (string)
(2)playing in time

after 5 years, i'm just now starting to realize how simple the steel really is..
for years i was trying to make it more complacated than it has to be

Calvin, If a person wants to stay in touch with what its like to be a raw beginner, just get a student to teach entry level.

People also have to stop being scared of theory. We only need a bare minimum to improvise (make up your own stuff). Knowing what it means to be in a certain key tells you where to start. It also lets you know what basic chords are available to you so you dont have to hunt for good sounding ones. It lets you know what single notes are available to you so you can go right to them versus blindly playing till it sounds right.

If you know no theory playing a new song goes like this: sliding up and down the neck till something sounds good. pumping pedals till some combo works. Plucking random strings till they sound right. This to me is an overwhelming and musically painful method to learn a part. You start with all the notes available and take away till it works. It sounds like someone honking a car horn while the band plays.

If you know SOME VERY BASIC theory, you find the key, which gives you ALL the notes available, and you choose the best combo of the available notes. You have a musically pleasing base to go on. Then you can add different positions to make the sound more complex. This process allows you to add better notes versus taking away bad notes.

Basic theory is like being able to read a map. you can go to any new city and find your way around A LOT EASIER than just driving around blindly (In St Louis this can get you killed!) till you figure out where you are going.

One year spent learning very basic theory is worth 5 stumbling around in the dark.


At least learn what it means to be in a key. If you play with other musicians this is CRUCIAL. You dont need to be able to analyze Chopin or Bach.

Havnt you noticed that there is a pattern that is familiar for 90% of the songs you play? (example: open postition, ab down over the same position,slide up 2 ab down) the only difference between a lot of songs is the order the pattern is played in. Having a basic knowledge of theory is knowing ahead of time where the pattern is.
For those other 10% of songs you may have to do it the hard way, but thats better than doing it the hard way 100% of the time.

Eventually if you pay attention to this pattern and try, you can start calling those postions 1, and 4 and 5. Your dont yet know why but you do it knowing that it will eventually make sense.

1= no pedals
4= ab down over the same fret as 1
5= ab down 2 frets up from 1

later you figure out the 1 chord is on the key center,

key of c, 1 = 8th fret
key of g, 1 = 3rd fret
key of e, 1 = open string
key of a, 1 = 5th fret
key of d, 1 = 10th fret

This is all you need to get started on MOST country, rock and blues songs.


But that gets boring over time so you learn 1 4 &5 in different positions to be more dynamic,,uh oh be careful your theory is starting to show!

most songs will be made up of the 1 4 5

What about the rest? 2,3,6 &7? they are very important, they are usually minor chords, and since they are less common you can figure those out later.

if you learn just this stuff you have a good solid base and can free your brain up for more complex playing.

and they lived happily ever after

amen

Calvin, I sincerely believe that the length of time a person has played, has little or nothing at all to do with exactly where they are at in the level of music playing period.

And if you'll bring up your own posts from just a short while back, you'll see where all of your own stumbling blocks were located. So if anyone should be able to give the definitive answers that you're asking others for, it should be you who could best point them out.

Or, is your post really for you to find out how to get past a hang up. We first have to know exactly what the hangup/s seem to be, or nobody will be able to help, regardless of how much they'd like to.

The number one thing that will destroy a person's interest in trying to play, is an out of tune instrument period. Simply because it will never sound good to them regardless of what they try to play.

So then, it would be to get not just familiar with their pedal steel, but get to know it, get to know exactly how to tune their pedals and knees, along with the guitars open tuning.

Ear training would be another, as if one can't hear whether or not their instrument is out of tune, or their pedals are pulling too sharp or flat, again would soon lose interest.

Then they need something to work with that isn't above their heads in attempting to play it. Even if it's "Mary Had a Little Lamb" But they should take something such as "Red River Valley" a song that's been around for decades, that everyone is familiar with. Then they should not just learn to play it, but learn to play it FLAWLESS, and perfectly in tune, along with perfect TIMING, that needs to be perfected. Before moving on. By the time they learn the one song, they'll have accomplished tons and tons of knowledge.

The problem with most people in learning, is that they don't take the needed time to learn any one song well enough to move on to another song, yet they move on anyway. That is the start of a downhill slide that will gather no moss. Then, since they've played, but never really played anything right, or complete, they get to feeling it's worthless, as they can't learn, and find themselves discouraged and soon give it up.

That's my advice. And as far as there coming a time when practice is over with? In Pedal Steel Guitar, it's never over. Regardless of the years of playing. I can guarantee you that every pedal steel player whether playing for 50 years or not, whether professional, semi professional or whatever else are still practicing as time permits. Practicing is a never ending thing that goes along with the territory.

Don

Don said

Or, is your post really for you to find out how to get past a hang up.

nope... i just remember all those mental blocks
and thought we should try to help others

Steve
what you said is correct . but its very easy for a newbie to get bogged down in to much theroy
what you said about learning what key to play in
is very true...but this is where i think a newbie
should stop and start experamenting ..watching for the patterns as they play and stop worrying about
things like ...if i flatten this string it will make it a whatever.. who cares!!! if it sounds good play it
you can learn what it is later

Don
too many times we get hung up on nit picking the way we tune .
some like straight 440 i like the tempered tuning ...who cares !!!
that's why we have chromatic tuners
find a tuning you like and forget the rest

junk like this, is what drive's a newbie nuts

Calvin you said:

after 5 years, i'm just now starting to realize how simple the steel really is..

That above only serves to show how little you really know. Pedal steel, is a very, complex instrument. And if you'd only listen to folks trying to help you, you'd come to learn more than the mere basics, and then you'd know exactly how complex they really are, when played as they were intended to be played.

But to say how simple they really are, is the understatement of the year.

However, you are correct in one since of the word. They are, no more complex, than the amount of ability to play that one has. A person can choose to leave out all of the complexities, and play one as simply being a none pedal steel if desired. But again, to really play and play well as intended, it is by all definition of the word complex, one of the most complex musical devices there are.

Don

some guys need to stop trying to impress others
with how smart they want people to think they are, and start trying to really help the newbies
instead of just confusing them
to make themselves look smarter
than ther really are

Gosh Calvin, you definitely do make a good point there. But Calvin, of the newbies, you seem to be the only one who gets confused, by folks trying to help.

Now I'm beginning to see why it is that many here don't attempt to help because in one sense of the word, it can boil down to being a total waste of time.

Much like it was with me letting my steel go this past summer in taking tons and tons of my time in sending you things I made up especially for you, including the entire E9th neck in all phases, with the material that should have had you up and running big time.

Then to learn it was all wasted time that I should have been putting into getting my own steel back together, which just happens to be still completely apart.

The thanks one gets for taking an interest for whatever reason it was. I think it was from hearing you say that you'd been trying to learn to play for Five years and wasted your time.

I can tell you this.. I won't ever make that mistake again. However, it's not wasted material. I'll simply remove your name off of the saved material, and send it on to those who really do want to learn how to play.

Calvin, your intent to help so called newbies is to be commended but the problem I see is that you are lumping them all into the same category, which is a mistake.

A NEW Player that has a background playing perhaps Guitar or Piano and understands some basic principles of music will advance quickly, they approach a new Instrument with a totally different outlook, they look to apply what they already know to the new Instrument.

A New player with zero experience or zero exposure to other instruments is not in that category.

nobody is trying to show off what they know, they are explaining what they believe to be a good method for advancement.

The E9th Pedal Steel Guitar traditional tuning allows for "in family" chord changes with a few simple physical moves and without moving the bar or changing the string grip.

That is NOT a mistake.