acoustic pedal steel guitar from BMI?

Alan Brookes · From: Brummy living in Southern California

I would have thought that you could build the mechanism at the pedal end of a cable set-up, and then run cables into the back of a regular Dobro, which would have to be held in a frame, but to the public it would look like a regular Dobro on a stand.

Maybe the best way would be to abandon the modern mechanism and go back to a Multi-Kord type mechanism which could be bolted to the end of a regular Dobro and controlled by cables.

Max W. Thompson · From: Texas, USA

To take Mr. Doggett's idea a little further, let's face the resonator to the front, like this:

with the same kind of 45 degree piece transfering the vibrations to twin resonators on the front. One could come from the changer knife edge and the other from the bridge end. (changer and bridge being on opposite ends...I didn't clarify that)

You could build the whole thing out of metal, like a metal dobro. I bet that sucker would be loud, and who wouldn't want to have twin resonators on the front?

Mr. Brooks: I put a raised nut on an old Ovation 6 string last Saturday, and it sounded pretty good. (The neck was so bent it wouldn't work for anything else.) Now if I can figure out what to tune it in, I have another slide instrument that I can barely play.

Max

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

I think you should build a pedal banjo! Bwaaa! Acoustic instruments of even the same type can have very diferent volumes. I had the pleasure of playing a B&D Silver Bell 5-string once. You wanna talk about loud? If you showed up at a Bluegrass gig with that banjo, they'de make you stand a block away, and, the mandolin player just might pull a gun on ya! I've heard several banjo players say that the reason the Gibson banjo became so popular is that it was the least loud banjo they could find!

Paul Redmond · From: Illinois, USA

Sounds like creative minds are at work!!! Great!!! I, too, have gotten the old rejection around here from the purists. That's why we don't allow their '3 chords-and-a capo' crap at our Country jams. Two can play at that game. The grassers want a Dobro. . .NOT something that was invented to sound like a Dobro, yet played like a pedal steel. Pedals are a worse offense in some circles than the dastardly pickup/electric thing. It's just a form of snobbery.
There are two words that strike fear and terror in a grasser's heart. "Osborne Brothers". Those guys broke all the rules years ago using pedal steel, drums (AGHH), and electric bass (which sounds a whole lot mellower on bluegrass music anyway IMO). During an interview I heard on PBS radio while living in NC some years ago, Bobby was asked how the group developed its unique harmony and chord patterns. Bobby replied that they almost exclusively use pedal steel passing/transitional chord patterns and inversions to establish their music. I was working on a ladder at the time and about fell off the thing!!! From then on, I payed much closer attention to what the group was singing and how they were going from one chord to another, and could actually 'hear' the pedal steel passages in their vocal harmony. Bobby Osborne said it. . .I didn't make this up!!!
Why is it that most BG bass players use these phony-looking bass fiddle necks sticking out of some kind of a small box sitting on the floor WITH a pickup mounted on it going to an (AGHH) amplifier? The BG community needs to get realistic about the very music they play and what instruments will enhance it rather than perpetuate this class-oriented snobbery they seem to delight in so much. I've jammed with some of them before and switched my George L's p/u to position #5, cut off my reverb and/or delay, and they thought I WAS playing a Dobro. If they still want to beat out bass on a 1-string washtub bass, play every song at the speed of light to see how fast they can finish it, and go thru 20 songs that all sound alike and have the same structure and format, then I guess I don't really want to work with those kinds of groups very badly anyhow. I'll just stick to my Ray Price, Webb Pierce, Carl Smith, George Jones, Ernest Tubb, Faron Young, Hank Williams, Johnny Bush 'electric' music and be content with it. Sorry for being so caustic on the subject, but to me it's all about the music, not political statements and 'attitudes' from people who wouldn't even know how to construct a diminished chord if their life depended on it. To each his/her own. . .but leave the attitudes out of it and take some time to enjoy the music.
Dan, check out the old cabinet-mounted Victrola's that used a cornucopia-shaped 'megaphone' to amplify the sound generated by the mica sound reproducer. The front doors, sometimes designed in the form of louvers, served as 'volume controls' on these units. But the amplification was incredible with very little sacrifice in tone. Sure, those old Victrola's played records that admittedly didn't have much tone to begin with, but the principle is still the same, fast-forward a century. Those 'megaphones were usually made of cast iron. . .at least the one I have (a model VV-VI)is equipped with a round-to rectangle cornucopia megaphone with a gradual 90-degree transitional curve incorporated into the design. The casting wall-section averages 1/4" or slightly less throughout. Hope this helps. Sounds like a neat project and I wish all of you well on it.
PRR

Paul Redmond · From: Illinois, USA

Another little hint which may save a lot of unnecessary labor in construction of the new instrument. Put the changer at the left end of the cabinet. That would keep most of the linkage, rods, shafts, etc. away from the sound box area of the cabinet. The pedal linkages would also be to the left end of it and would allow for very short pullrods to the changer. Just an idea I had eons ago when Paul Sr. first built the Pedabro.
PRR

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Nic du Toit · From: Milnerton, Cape, South Africa

Here are some ideas for acoustic amplification.
Maybe use a couple of horns in one box to spread the sound.

Nic du Toit · From: Milnerton, Cape, South Africa

Here is a Hawaiian guitar with a Horn.
http://www.notecannons.com/stroh.html
If you can't get there, scroll down to Strohviols.

And if you want to see the details, here are some patent drawings:
http://tinyurl.com/369ar7

Dan Burnham · From: Greenfield, Tennessee

Thanks you guys for the great ideas and they all will be put on the list "to try." I do appreciate all the input.

I have logged all the ideas and suggestions and you can believe they will be tested. Why are we doing this? Well you know the obvious reason but the other is in recognition of Mr. Zane Beck. He was noted for ideas that other builders didn't think of or try.

Now to a very important issue, what will be an acceptable tone to you guys? I'll leave the floor open for all of your responce.

Suggestions Please Rolling Eyes

_________________
BMI S12 Zane Beck's Tuning
www.danburnham.com

HowardR · From: N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville

Ya'll are nuts thinkin' you can jes build crazy stuff.......ya' ain't can't do it......

don't even know why I bother to hang around here....blasphemy!!!!!!!!!!!!

Paul Redmond · From: Illinois, USA

Yes, Mike, I do believe in the parallel string concept. And, yes, if you saw the Whitney in 1984, you did see the parallel string arrangement. I have not yet found anyone (and I've questioned literally hundreds of players to date) who has been able to explain why the strings should NOT be parallel. Winnie and I discussed this at great length one time and the only reason for the 'tapered' concept that either one of us could come up with was that many people in the beginning, raised the nut on a regular 6-string guitar so it could be played as a steel. That's it!!! "It's always been done that way, so why not follow all the rest of the sheep to slaughter?" Mechanically speaking and physically speaking, tapered string spacing is not correct. I really shouldn't have to elaborate on this. If you're pulling a string part sideways, it's not pulling in-line. If that's the case, certain components of the entire system are being forced to bind on their respective housings rather than 'run free'. That's really kind of stupid!!! I don't even have to explain this. The great advantage of having the parallel arrangement is that the entire neck of the guitar is played the same way no matter where you are on it. I've heard players say over the years that "I could never get used to that!!" Well, yes you can!!! The primary reason most manufacturers still cling to the long-outdated tapered concept is that they wouldn't be able to force all those cutesy-shiny Mickey Mouse ear tuning heads onto the top of the guitar any other way without making the guitar body somewhat wider and adding to the weight of the instrument not to mention its additional unnecessary bulk. The industry standard seems to have settled in at 11/32" or .344" over the years. I used .330" as the o.c. dimension on the Whitney's. If you measure out the taper at where you pick your strings it comes out pretty close to that number. Then I just translated out the entire length of the neck. Those who have played my guitars over the years have all told me that it took some 'getting used to', but not a one of them has ever bad-mouthed it. More simply put, if you tapped the brake pedal on your car each and every time you made a RH or LH turn upon acceleration, you'd wear something out!!! No difference here!!!Pull 'em all in-line and keep them parallel...everything moving in-line...no side-binding and no stresses where they don't belong. It's all a matter of un-learning bad habits and a bit of re-thinking. I switch off from so-called tapered guitars (BMI)and parallel guitars (Whitney) interchangeably. I still find the parallel arrangement more user-friendly after all these years.
It's a matter of choice and preference and casting aside the old 'well, that's the way it's always been done' mentality. I now defer to Ed Packard on this subject. Nuff said!!!
PRR

Paul Redmond · From: Illinois, USA

Howard - That guitar/Dobro/???? just begs to be keyless. But IMO he's headed on the right track with the changer at the left end of the instrument. On a so-called acoustic instrument, the changer noises would be isolated and confined to the area behind the bar and the player's left hand. That'd be valuable on a so-called acoustic instrument where every little 'click' would shine thru otherwise. (Where did you ever find this thing anyhow??)
PRR

Dan Burnham · From: Greenfield, Tennessee

Howard, I love it, absolutely love it. Whoa!

_________________
BMI S12 Zane Beck's Tuning
www.danburnham.com

Michael Douchette · From: Gallatin, TN (deceased)

Aren't the strings on all pedal steels parallel? I've never really looked at mine that analytically. I'll take a gander next time...
_________________
Mikey D... H.S.P.
Music hath the charm to soothe a savage beast, but I'd try a 10mm first.

http://www.steelharp.com
http://www.thesessionplayers.com/douchette.html

(other things you can ask about here)
http://s117.photobucket.com/albums/o54/Steelharp/

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

Who built that one Premod ?

Bernard Beck · From: Paris France

Well that sounds great. The idea of the independant acoustic box is certainly the best.
I teach math at junior college level. Last year I helped a student through a project of study of sustain on solid body guitars, and, just to give it a try, some acoustics too.
He had found a model explaining that the body-neck joint was a flex point where lots of energy was lost. We than measured the sustain on about 10 instruments. Here are the results, best to worst :
1) Way ahead, a Georgeboard, one piece of wood lapsteel (no neck-body join, no moving parts)
2) A real LesPaul
3) A very good Japanese strat
4) and 5) a couple of good corean made copies, 300-400 bucks guitars
Than, a big laugh with cheapo 80 bucks strats
And at the end, the acoustic instruments.
No surprise in there, but it makes so much sense : the loss of sustain comes from everything that can freely vibrate in the instrument. And on acoustic instruments, the energy of the vibrating strings is dissipated to have the table vibrate, which produces the acoustic sound. So indeed, as someone pointed out on the forum, there is a kind of a war between sustain and volume in acoustic instruments.
So before discussing which wood to use, I am certain that the transmission of the vibration of the strings to the acoustic box is of utmost importance. Since you will be keeping the BMI mechanical part which you know works so well, the success of your instrument will reside in that system, and that due to 2 points of view from your future customers.
1) Steel players want a natural sustain to the instrument. That is really one of the trade mark of the steel sound
2) Acoustic players will want enough volume and projection.

Now, for the type of sound, it is hard to say, lots of personal taste into that.
Now here is a quote from Bob Brozman in Andy Volk’s “lap steel guitar” book, on page 217 :
“There are two kinds of woods used in the vintage weissenborns…………..With the open grain wood, when you strike the note, it’s actually louder than the curly ones-maybe 10%, even 15% louder. But, with less dense straight wood, the energy of the note dissipate more quickly……………..With the curlier Weissenborn, because I play on stage with a microphone, I’m willing to give up 10% of the initial volume in order to have 80% more sustain……….”
I really like Bob Brozman’s quote. I find it makes lots of sense to a steel player.
I wish BMI lots of success on that project
Bernard

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Bernard, does " the open grain wood" mean straight grained wood? I almost bought a L-5 a few years ago. The seller said his late Father had ordered it from Gibson with only staight grained wood. His Dad, a big band/jazz guy told his son that the guitar was louder, and cut through the big orchestra better than the curly grained guitars.

Bernard Beck · From: Paris France

We would have to get Bob Brozman to give us more info on what he calls " the open grain wood" personnaly, I am not competent to precise that thing.
Bernard

HowardR · From: N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville

The Pedal Dobro was built by Brad Higgins......Brad is a very talented luthier, musician, machinest, mechanic......he does it all....but mostly, he's a violin builder......he and his wife Pat (who plays bass) are very wonderful people......

Brad built this one of a kind Pedal Dobro for himself years ago......I met him at The PSGA show, I think 02' or 03'.........he recently decided to sell it......so that's the story....it's in B6 tuning....3 pedals, 1 knee......10 strings.....

here are more photos....I've tried to show where the body "floats" on the frame......

and some under carriage......

Paul Redmond · From: Illinois, USA

In all the violin-family instruments, a sound post is used to transmit vibrations to the back of the instrument. I'm wondering if that sound post could also be used in this application to amplify everything. Just a thought.
PRR

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