The Steel Guitar Forum

Edward Meisse wrote:Actually, I think that Bob Wills, Hank Sr., and the other country artists you refer to are being refered to as Americana these days. Am I wrong? That's the section I seem to remember finding them under at Elderly instruments anyway.

Not being contrary, Edward, but I went to the Elderly site - and didn't find either Bob Wills or Hank (there are a number of us here that find it unnecessary to type "Sr." after Hank - after all, Waylon didn't sing "Are you sure that Hank Sr. done it this way?") in the Americana category, and I haven't run across that anywhere else, for that matter.


As far the radio station thing goes, you left out an obvious choice here in Sonoma County: The Krush (KRSH 95.9), they play tons of Americana.

Now how about this question (for everyone): If there is "traditional country," Hank, Ernest Tubb, etc., is there such a thing as "traditional rock and roll?"

I think it's all labeling for marketing purposes. They're trying to borrow the image of what a particular style name conjures up to try to put it across. I don't think it has much to do with music.

Although the alt-country and Americana styles owe a lot to early "traditional" country, I don't usually hear Hank, Lefty, and other earlier country artists referred to as anything but country. During the folk boom, marketeers would try to label anything as folk to try to capitalize on that, but I still think most people thought about it as country music.

If there is "traditional country," Hank, Ernest Tubb, etc., is there such a thing as "traditional rock and roll?"

Sort of. Some people call it old-style rock and roll, real rock and roll, or something like that. To a certain extent, I think it's redundant. Starting in the psychedelic era, a distinction was made between rock and roll - the earlier variant - and rock or hard rock - the more modern variants.

I dunno, but perhaps the reason it's not called "traditional" rock and roll is that its place in history is that it upset tradition.

Human beings do seem to love to cubbyhole everything - it's like "OK, now we really understand its essence, put it in its place, and sell it."

Mark Eaton wrote: Now how about this question (for everyone): If there is "traditional country," Hank, Ernest Tubb, etc., is there such a thing as "traditional rock and roll?"

Absolutely. When George Thorogood's first record came out (1978?) it was on Rounder, who typically did "traditional" music, and I recall thinking how appropriate it was that his brand of r'n'r should come out on a "traditional" label, and what that said about rock.

That said, I doubt I could put a description on it. But I think I know what it is.

Gene Vincent - yes
Beatles - yes
Byrds - yes
Black Sabbath - no
Eagles - certainly some of their earlier stuff
Blasters - yes
Police - no

And so on...

-eric

Jerry Overstreet wrote:Well, the topic is about country music Leslie, so I don't get your point, I guess. I'm happy for you though, that you know what you like and don't.

I like to listen to some country music, but I don't play country. What I like to listen to and what I like to play can be two very different things.

In my opinion, the only country music worth listening to is anything up until the end of the 1960s. There wasn't much happening afterward that really turns my crank. So that rules out Bon Jovi and 'new country'.

And as far as steel guitar goes, I try to avoid anything with slow high-pitched whiney-sounding E9th stuff happening. The whining really grates on my nerves.

Try this:

http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/index.php/ ... y-chesney/

Rock *IS* country....

-eric

I apologize, Mr. Eaton. I should have made it clear that I get the printed catalogue. The latest issue I have offers Bob Wills and Hank Williams boxed sets as well as a Hank Williams DVD. They are under, American Roots Music." I think they come out about once a year. I'm going to order the DVD this very weekend as it gets great reviews. Also, I want to be sure to stay on the Elderly mailing list.

Point taken, Leslie. Your reply is reinforcement to my contention that steel guitar is an instrument and not a musical style in the same way that piano, guitar, etc. is compatible owing to the person behind it.

I support and applaud your direction and share some of your same ideas. My point here, however, is not about the instrument, but rather what is considered mainstream country music and the overwhelming gamut of styles that appear to be acceptable fare for the producers and marketers of said music.

I maintain that what is called country music today, has become a welcome haven for 80's rockers, southern rockers, and a mishmash of other styles not popular with the 17 yr. olds.

No disrespect intended for above mentioned....shoot, many of these people are the reason I play music today.. it's just..... how about more respect for the tradition? That's all I'm saying...and with that, I'm willing to let the thread die.

There are those who will no doubt disagree, but everything changes.

Does anyone here still have same hairstyle they wore in 1963? (Heck, does anyone still have all the hair they had back then...)

how about more respect for the tradition?

I'm not knocking tradition, but what was relevant or desirable 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago may no longer be so. That's just the way of things. As much as many would like it to be so, society is not static. If it were, we would still be sitting around bonfires in caves.

Music changes because times changes. It's a reflection of culture at the moment.

Rock *IS* country....

I could'nt agree more. They've grown apart and back together numerous times since the 50's.

Classical music hasn't changed to the point where it no longer has violins. Jazz hasn't changed where it no longer has a saxaphone. Rock hasn't changed to the point where it no longer has guitars. You tell me why it is ACCEPTABLE that some marketing manager in N.Y. City makes a decision to ELIMINATE steel guitars and fiddles from country music! Thats not change. Thats corruption of an art form and purposeful. Somebody needs to confront Ed Benson of the CMA and get his answer on camera, because there are ALOT of angry country fans out there over whats been going on.

Rascal Flatts has a fiddler. I saw Carolyn Dawn Johnson live on TV and she had a pedal steeler in her band. The new country artists are using fiddle and/or steel, but not in the same way as the old artists did.

This begs the question as to whether a) 'it ain't country without fiddle or steel' or b) 'it ain't country without fiddle or steel the way I remember hearing them played.'

Les,

I may be going out on a limb here, but I'm thinkin' it's b)

Kevin,

There are classical pieces that don't feature the violin. Does that mean it's not classical?

There are jazz tunes (eg Swinging Shepherd Blues) that have no sax whatsoever... does that mean it's not jazz??

Ben Folds Five (a "rock" act) is a three piece that is made up of drums/bass/keyboard. Is that a travesty?

I can't buy the "country genocide by elimination of steel and fiddle" argument. Yeah, the marketing guys don't seem to hear those instruments, but I think the issue is age.. Fiddle and steel are played by mostly older individuals (remember the "average age" poll??) and the marketing drones are aiming at the under 30 crowd because they're the ones spending the big bucks on tickets and CD's.

There are some people who say, Christopher Columbus didn't discover America. New Counrty,Old Country, so what,and nerver the twain will meet. Joe

Gene Vincent - yes
Beatles - yes
Byrds - yes
Black Sabbath - no
Eagles - certainly some of their earlier stuff
Blasters - yes
Police - no

"Traditional rock?"

Well - the Byrds were not considered a traditional "rock" band at all in the 60's; they were the ones who started the "folk rock" genre. It was a new thing. Black Sabbath is more of a traditional rock band than the Byrds were - but your categorization seems to place, by reference, "metal" outside traditional rock....but folk or country rock in?

The Eagles - especially their earlier stuff - were more of a country band than today's country bands, and were the (In many player's opinions) a kind of watered-down result of blending Gram Parson's vision with commercial music. And what makes the Blasters - a rockabilly band - more "tradional rock" than the Police, a...well, "rock" band?

Where do you put Led Zeppelin? Yes? Cream? The Surfaris? Was Cream traditional rock...or blues rock...or jazz rock...

Frank Zappa?

...or what the heck does it matter?

I use labels as well out of convenience - because generally it helps people understand what you mean.

That list I do not understand at all.

Heck, as long as you have a gig, who cares what people call it? If you don't, either you're hanging around the wrong musicians or hanging onto stuff YOU want to hear - but the public doesn't.

Complaining about traditions and not being able to hold onto them isn't applicable to commercial music. The commercial world could give a damn about anyone's traditions - they care about what sells, and if calling Rascal Flatts a "country" band somehow translates into ticket sales - then they ARE a country band.

Marketing only does so much. Eventually the music AND entertainment (because the stage part of it IS just as critical when it comes to sales) stand up or they don't.

Johnny Cash used very little,or didn't use steel or fiddle at all. Johnny Cash wasn't country? Joe

Johnny Cash was the only one in his catagory, but at the same time he was in everyone else's. He was country, folk, rock-a-billy. He was also a very good actor, writer, etc. He wasn't just an American; He was a citizen of the earth.
In summary, he was one of a kind.