The Steel Guitar Forum

I have to share a story with you guys about my gig last night, which was a jazz gig with a trombone player.
My horn playing friend is from the older school of jazz guys; he claims that he never thinks about the chord progressions. And while he's a very melodic player, his improvisations can sound dated and simplistic sometimes. In our past conversations about modes, etc, he told me he's looked over theoretical information about modes before, but he thinks it's a bunch of irrelevent crap.
So last night I conducted an experiment. On the set list was a tune I know alot of steelers play - "Out of Nowhere". Trombone guy had mentioned to me in the past that he had trouble finding ways to improvise over the changes of this tune. Before he called off the tempo I asked him if he was willing to try something... he reluctantly agreed.
The chords for the first 8 bars of "Out of Nowhere" (In G) go like this:
<font face="monospace" size="3"><pre>
|G | |Bb-7 |Eb7 |
|G | |B-7 |E7 |
</pre></font>
So I asked him to think of a two measure phrase in the key of G which ended on the major 7th note (F#). Fine... he did that.
Then I asked him to play that phrase for the first 2 bars of his solo, and then play the same phrase again for the next two bars, only to move the whole phrase up a half tone, to the key of Ab. He shot me a withering skeptical look, and agreed.
So, he called off the tune... he played the head as it's written, then he took his solo. He played his predetermined 2 bar phrase over G, ending on the major 7th note, then cranked the whole thing up a half tone and played it again in Ab over the next two bars, over the Bb-7 Eb7 change. It was gorgeous.
You should have seen the look on the guy's face. I swear I actually saw a little light bulb magically appear in the air over his head. It sounded so good, and shocked him so much he frigged up the next several bars of his solo.
During the bass solo, he leans over to me and whispers "Well, I have to admit, that sounded pretty hip."
So I decided during my solo I'd take it one step further while he was listening.
I did the same thing, played a 2 measure phrase in G that ended in the major seventh note (F#), then repeated the phrase up a half tone in Ab... then I dropped it back down for the two measure G chord, then moved it up a whole tone and played it again, over the B-7 E7.
He stood over the piano staring at me, and when the tune was over he said "What the heck happened there? How did that work?"
I explained to him that the Bb-7 to Eb7 change were both elements of the Ab major scale (II-V), so it stood to reason that his chosen phrase would fit in beautifully no matter what it was... and therefore, would fit beautifully over the B-7 E7 change if you moved it up a whole tone next time into the A major scale instead.
He was still scratching his head when he walked out of the gig, saying "I'm going to think about that"
Try it. You'll like it.
-John
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by John Steele on 23 January 2003 at 03:24 PM.]</p></FONT>

I just tried it. I liked it. Thank you. Just one question: why did you have him end the phrase on the 7th scale degree? I realize the chord is GMaj7 but that, of course, doesn't necessarily imply one must end a line with the major 7th. So why this particular stipulation, John?

Jim, that's true, you wouldn't need to necessarily land on the Maj7.
If you look at the Bb-7 to Eb7 change as a II-V in the key of Ab, then I wanted to avoid having him land on the Ab note - which would ruin the V chord effect. I could have said "land on anything but the tonic note" as well.
What he was actually doing for the Eb7 was Eb mixolydian, which comes from the Ab scale. For dominant chords, leaning on the 4th degree will give it an unresolved feel, like a sus chord.
I'm glad you liked it, Jim.
-John
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by John Steele on 23 January 2003 at 09:01 PM.]</p></FONT>

Jim, it's a half step up to the major 7 of Ab, which would be the G note. A half step movement produces smooth voice leading between two chords. It just sounds nice. In a ii - V chord progression, it's common to use the flat 7 of the minor 7, to change to the major 3rd of the Dom 7. This is because it's a half step movement between the two chords, smooth voice leading. You can do the same between the V - I, leave the old chord on it's b7 and arrive at the new chord at it's major 3rd. It's just a half step apart and produces smooth voice leading. Charlie Parker was a master at smooth voice leading and had a bunch of pet voice leading tricks he used over and over. Smooth voice leading really seperates the men from the boys and shows how hard a player has worked on his instrument. I think it's one of the hardest things to do well, so that it's second nature.

A major scale has what is called an avoid note, the 4th. Like John pointed out, it messes with the major 3d of the major scale. You can still play it, just dont hang on it. Of course it depends what chord is being played, the two chord is Dorian and it has no avoid note. You have to watch out for a major triads 3rd and 4th with each other and not hang on the 4th so it makes the chord sound suspended. Jim, I thought it sounded nice as well. Thanks...<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 23 January 2003 at 09:10 PM.]</p></FONT>

Right on, Jesse. You sound like you'd be alot of fun to jam with
Bud Powell is another guy that was a master of the voice-leading thing.
Jim, you can apply what Jesse said to any
II-V minor7-to-9th change, (dropping the seventh tone of the II chord a half tone, making it become the third of the V chord). You can also do this with minor II-V changes, where the 7th of the half-diminished chord drops down and makes the chord resolve beautifully to 7b9.
-John

John, the b5 of a min 7b5 chord (half dim)is also the b9 of the altered dom7 chord. Parker would use this device to change at the ii - V. He often times would hit the b9 and jump up to the 13 of the dom, he loved doing this alot.

Are we done then?

Heck no! I'm just on Lesson #3.

With regard to our conversation about altered chords, and the corresponding scale,
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>
To play the Locrian mode for altered chords, use the melodic minor a half step up from the root
</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I thought perhaps you guys might find this interesting... http://www.buddyemmons.com/Farm.htm
Look at the second measure of the A chord in BE's solo. He uses Bb melodic minor over the A chord for that jagged altered feeling. More pudding for the proof.
-John <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by John Steele on 31 January 2003 at 09:50 AM.]</p></FONT>

That's pretty neat John. The more I hear Buddy Emmons, the more I'm starting to like pedal steel and what it can do.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 31 January 2003 at 11:48 AM.]</p></FONT>

Is it just me or are Denny's new "click here" links broken? Nothing happens when I click on them.

Having recently "signed up" here, I wanted to say Thank You to the several people who have emailed me about this message chain, and those that offered suggestions and some typo corrections to my modal navigation and chord/scale "substitution" mapping project, and to those that sparked discussions here about the subject. My humble Thanks are overdue, but with a very full plate it took me some time to become a member here of what could be a black hole of enjoyable times. It warms me to see that the work has helped a few people as much as it helped me to seek, find and publish the concepts and mapping. It was certainly a barn door to the music cosmos for me, to tie much of what most of us already knew in fragments and different ideas, into a rather simple congruent picture of what is happening with Modes and "Substitution" concepts. Thank You again to the many fine folks here that are so kindly offering their ideas to the project.

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Aloha,
Denny T~ www.dennysguitars.homestead.com/home1.html <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 07 May 2003 at 05:55 AM.]</p></FONT>

Aloha Denny, great to see you on the SGF. I've been working on 4 different tunings, C6/A7, E6 (Don Helms), E13(Leon McAuliffe) and F#9/C#m7(Dick McIntire/Sol Hoppii). I wanted to tell you that the song Jimmie Vaughn did on 8 string steel (Hillbillies from outerspace) used a standard C13th Hawaiian tuning and had a speeded up chorus like effect on the steel to sound kinda like a Hammond B3 organ. Nice sounding effect for a blues shuffel.

E
C
A
G
E
C
Bb
C

Bravo Denny, great site, and I'm glad you joined the forum too.

I have been wanting to re-examine my use of modes, and add the ones I have forgotten the specifics of over the last 25 years since my Berklee days. Merci!
I had completely forgotten Locrian... even if I did still use it... It is in an arab flavord mandolin solo on one of my salsa / bebop tunes.

My late modal teacher John Neves used to play bass for Dizzy G when he came to Boston without a band, so he was pretty thorough. But it was a long time ago. Nice to have a refresher course especialy when learning a new instrument, in this case PSG. But I will also apply this to mandolin.

But even now it still gives brain cramps!

John S. the link to BE's Farm Boy was cool too. Buddy seems to have had some really good theory gurus around him over the years.

I just stuck a Bb7alt in m6 of the Out Of Nowhere changes and tried the BE lick with your trombone test changes... interesting.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 08 May 2003 at 03:34 AM.]</p></FONT>

Bumpin' up
David Donald here:
Lookin' through this site is probably the best way to come up with one of the "Breakthroughs" bein' discussed over in "Steel Players"
applying even one or two parts of what Denny's showing us here can give you a far greater understanding of how PSG or Lap Steel tunings Really Work.

Today while jamming w: CrowBear and a Jazz Bass Player, i repeatedly used several of the ideas John Steele was discussing above and i only looked at them last week ! :ee:
(including BE's altered scale/lick)

This Stuff Works and not just as a sales tool for Tylenol.......et voila !
Bonne nuit les petits

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Steel what?

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by CrowBear Schmitt on 12 May 2003 at 05:40 PM.]</p></FONT>

Well, Johnny Come Lately here; I just wanted to answer Byron Walcher's message of 1-21-03 in this chain as that seems a good way to also present the "modal boxes" a bit more:

<SMALL>..."summertime", G.Gershwin. If the head starts in Cminor, third fret, wouldn't the substitution be the BdMaj7 mode at the 5th fret?</SMALL>

You're correct Byron, ...BbMaj7 DOES substitute for Cm7 ... and is probably the most commonly used scalular substitution for Cm7; But obviously Eb6 (CHORD) subs for the Cm7 chord since that's where we're playing Cm7 CHORD at. It's not because Eb6 scale subs for Cm7 because it doesn't; It's the BOX created by Eb6 and F6 together that give us the FDominant7 scale in the box that subs for Cm7. That's also the box for BbMaj7! Same identical notes; BbMaj7 scale = Cm7 scale = F7 scale, because they all have the identical same notes in their scales. BUT, the Major chords in the box ALWAYS sit on the upscale end fret of the box, while the minor chords ALWAYS sit on the downscale end fret of the box.

-----------------------

Here's 5 minutes' reading (and about an hour studying) looking at it from a few different angles and with a few more details ... with some repetition ... for those that might need it massaged a little bit:

In each minor scale / mode box, the minor signature chords will ALWAYS be on the down-scale end of the box ... while the Major signature chords in their boxes will ALWAYS be on the up-scale end of the box, ... and the remaining notes not voiced in the signature chord will be in the other end of each mode's 1 whole step box. That's why Cm7 CHORD sits at the down-scale end of the box at Eb6 ... and BbMaj7 sits at the up-scale end of the box, ... with both's scales subbing for each other.

There are 4 other substitutions for Cm7 (a total of 6 subs for any chord / scale / mode) ... and they are simply the remaining modes for Bb! BbMaj7 scale = Cm7 scale = Dm7b9 scale = E#4 scale = F7 scale = Gm7b6 scale = Ahalf.dim. scale. They all play over each other because they all have the same identical notes of their Mammy BbMaj7 parent scale. It's the context we think about the notes via different roots, chords, scales, modes, etc that creates the different flavors of movements we put into those notes. But not to worry about 6 different substitutions, ...I've mapped it out where 6th chord positions alone will substitute for any scale / mode and their signature chords.

I think and use 6th chords as the substitution (rather than the Maj7) because the vast majority of us already think, navigate and play relative to the 6th chord positioning; So it's a piece of cake once we know where to place that 6th chord in substitution to get each mode's signature chord we desire, ...and get the remaining notes for the full scale that are ALWAYS just 2 frets away and straight bar to boot. For a Cm7 substitution, most of us already think "Move the C6th chord up 3 frets" to make it a minor7. Add it's remaining sale notes 2 more frets up at F6 and we get the full scale box. And every other mode is just that simple; We just gotta know where to put the box.

First is to recognize that every single mode / scale and a signature chord for every single mode / scale can be found straight-bar with all the notes of the scale and the signature chord in a single 2 fret box. All the modes are right there in the box whether we move it along the neck or not. In effect, we move the box along the neck so the mode we desire therein matches the root note we desire on the string and fret that makes that mode in the box. But it's just a heck'uv'a lot easier to think of it terms of where the box needs to be located relative to the 6th chord position. For instance, to make a I6 chord a IMaj7 chord, I know that V6 = IMaj7 so I simply play V6. If I want to make I6 an Aolean minor I just play bVI6.

Let's examine the chord E6 at the 4th fret ... and a concept we're familiar with: We move the steel bar to where the note E occurs on the 2nd string ... and the box thereby affords us the E Dominant7 box. All of the notes of E6 scale that are not on that fret are ALL 2 frets down at the 2nd fret. Remember that the 6th chord IS NOT sitting in a Maj7 box; It's sitting in a Dom7 box. When we play western swing lines off of a 6th chord and it's remaining scale notes 2 frets down from the chord, we are using a Dom7 scale. That's why we get that Dominant 9th chord located 2 frets below a 6th chord. That 9th chord voicing bottom>up is b7,9,4,5,b7,9; Which are the notes of the 6th (Dom7) scale that weren't voiced in the 6th chord's 1,3,5,6,1,3.

One of the perimeter frets in a box will be the signature chord fret, most of which we're all already familiar with and use, while the other perimeter fret will have the remaining notes of it's scale. In the case of Major chords, the remaining notes are ALWAYS 2 frets DOWN from the chord. In the case of minor chords, the remaining notes are ALWAYS 2 frets UP from the chord.

Of course Steelers know that with a non-pedal steel we only get the voicing available on the fret that's afforded by the tuning (slants out of the picture for this discussion); So in many cases we only get a signature chord that has common elements of the chord we call it. For instance, the Maj7(9) position most of us are familiar with ... G6 for CMaj7/9 for example ... gives us a voicing of 5,7,9,3,5,7 without even the root note being there, ...but the remaining notes are 2 frets down in that Maj7 box (4,6,1,9,4,6). (That makes it obvious why we can't get a decent 6th chord out of the Maj7 box but use the Dom7 box where the full 6th chord exists). Similarly, the voicing of Cm7 at the 3rd fret (Eb6) is bottom>up b3,5,b7,1,b3,5 ...AND ....ALL the remaining notes of the Cm7 scale are also straight bar 2 frets UP at F6 (4,6,1,2,4,6). The entire Cm7 scale is right there in a 2 fret box. And so are every other mode depending upon which string and fret in the box is considered root.

Boy, now THAT'S about enough nose-pickin' fer one sittin' !

ALOHA (means I don't know if I'm comin' or goin')
Denny T~
cr2003wdt
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 23 May 2003 at 06:44 PM.]</p></FONT>

Denny have you considered expanding you 6 string version chart to the common C6 10-string PSG version?
I am sure others besides my self would love to see that. Yep a lot of work and I won't be surprised if you demure.

Thanks again Denny for your great insights on C6th non pedal and how it lays out on the neck. Knowing the intervals of the individual Chord/scale box's and their basic triads and larger arpeggios, seems to make all of this information easy to make great sounding music with.

Without question, being able to play the simply three note arpeggios (triads) found in the box's (extensions) is a great place to build a foundation to make all the different positions/substitutions relate to the changes found in a given song. If you don't learn what the intervals are in the different chord/scale box's, your just shooting in the dark and making it much harder on yourself. This approach works on other tunings as well and also makes it easy to help understand other well known steel players, as far as their approaches to a given chord progression. Being able to view a tuning as a tuning with different tuning names that all relate to each other, seems to make it easier for me to see the overall layout of a tuning. Thanks again Denny, your one of the great non pedal steel teachers out there and I will always owe you a debt of gratitude for hipping me to this information about steel.

P.S. David, I don't think Denny plays pedals?

Jesse I did guess that Denny is a 6 stringer, but he is The Theory Meister. But I thought he would more quickly see the patterns in the larger frame work than many of us. Myself very much included.
It also would allow him to show more compound chords and such piano oriented theory.
Nothing ventured nothing gained.

David,

Thank You for the kind words. But let's get off on the right track here: I ain't doin nothin extra-ordinary at all; I was just in the right place at the right time when the modal "map" jumped off the fret board at the same place and time I had paper and a pencil in my teeth searching for it. I guess it was lookin for some grey-matter to give it legs.

I do play 6 strangs mostly anymore; A little blue MOTS Magnatone, using it's little matching amp as a monitor close by my shoulder and the Fender Vibrosonic Reverb sittin on top of a K-140 loaded Boyer hidden in the back; Mostly because squeezing trick out of a "little plastic board and tiny little plastic amp" is lotsa fun! But I also play a '55 Rick Console 518 with 10 strings close, 8 in the middle and the far neck empty to hold my ashtray, "sody-pop" and lamp.

Regarding expanding the modal map to more than 6 strings; I don't think it's needed: It doesn't matter how many strings you would have as long as the notes therein are 1,3,5,6. It's that grouping that keeps the major step sequence in the box on a 6th tuning by the 5th note being replicated 1 fret down from the 6th note in the box, and thereby putting the half-steps in order while the box is a whole step wide. That STEPS arrangement affords and locks in the mode steps sequence.

As long as pedals are only modulating 1,3,5,6 (for instance, I, IV and/or V and vs/vs) then the boxes would remain the same for any notes 1,3,5,6. A6 modulated to D6 by pedals would still provide D6 = AMa7, or D6 = Bmin7 etc. Obviously, if there was a Maj7 note in the tuning or pedal modulation you wouldn't have a Dominant 7 box, ...and in the case of the common C13, the dominant 7 carried down to the low perimeter fret of the box would become a b6 which would also not fit the modal sequencing in the box ALTHOUGH ANY OTHER REMAINING 1,3,5,6 WOULD. I'm sure Tom Morrel and Jr. Brown don't have much problem with that extra b7 note in their 13th tuning! Similarly a 9th that might be voiced in the box's signature chord as is trick for a 1st string on a 6th tuning for instance (or via a steel with more levers and gears than an old Road Ranger or Maxidine) would move down to a 1 in a Major box but would not fit upward into the minor boxes because it would be Maj3rd and by inference would disturb the modes derived therefrom.

Mo mumbo-jumbo:

It stands to reason that a pedal&gear-jammin Roth Rat could mentally keep up with his 1,3,5,6 voicings on a fret separate from it's exotics, and use the modal boxes OR also substitute his in-mode chords and scales similarly / easily; But when one arm is wrapped around the stir'n wheel while the other two are trying to shift gears and keep the pyrometer from meltin the glass, then it's pretty much every man for himself in figurin' out where he's at. However, Maurice Anderson has some excellent larnin material on chord/scale subsitution for an 18 wheeler steel; As a number of other teachers / authors do.

Besides the simplicity of navigating modes and substitution by my 6th chord method; The Maj7 SCALE on ANY instrument can ALWAYS be used to play ANY of the "church" modes in substitution SINCE THE MAJ7 IS INDEED THE MAMMY JAMMER OF EACH AND EVERY "CHURCH" MODE (I have spanish guitar scale substitution lessons for that). Example: If the band is playing Jazz in Dorian (minor7 root key), all you gotta do is drop down 1 whole step from the dorian root note and play Maj7 notes (Dmin7 = CMaj7) NEVER HAVING TO CHANGE SCALE NOTES A SINGLE TIME through a I-IV-V chord structured song ... or ANY song that remains in it's mode; And if a song modulates to another church mode then you can simply go to it's mammy Maj7 scale. This also works wonders for Bass Geetar / Fiddle. If the song is just loose minor, then the Maj7 can be subbed for the dorian and aeolean (pure minor mode) and even moved into Phrygian if'n yer tongue gets to hangin way out there. There are also more than a few pickers who don't realize that the Maj7 scale or parts thereof will perfectly make up their diminished passages by the Locrian half diminished mode which is MUCH more melodic to mode than a full diminished passage.

I have also found it extremely beneficial to practice playing Major scale notes and even other favorite scale structures in substitution for other scales / chords / modes BECAUSE IT BREAKS THE CHAINS of our thinking of those scale resources relative only to their commonly thought-of root note. ALSO, once a picker realizes that a Maj7 scale or any other church mode scale ALL have the Maj7 step sequence just like a slide rule, then placing that Maj7 scale (or any of the others if they prefer) at the right fret in substitution gives them the ability / arsenal to play the notes of any of the other church modes' scales OR chords simply by correct planting up / down the fretboard.

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Well, there I go pickin my nose again!

ALOHA,
Denny T~
Geetar Bedlam
cr2003wdt
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 23 May 2003 at 02:06 AM.]</p></FONT>

Jesse,

Thanks for the kind words and stuffs you so appropriately supplement the ideas on the forum with.

I hope thangs are still going smoooooothe as a Mai Tai under a palm there in Sandy Eggo.

If'n yer gonna do one of them "high-war-yun" cruises; Might I suggest slippin a kiss of distant echo/reverb in yer rig. It seems to remarkably add depth and scope to folks' dreams. If'n yer playin a console, be sure it's got sticky rubber feet! Buy some of those "silicone" rubber shower / counter anti-skid pads for under every piece of yer rig. Carry at least a small CD player for yer breaks to keep the ambiance going; And Dancin hula to it with the OLDER ladies will do wonders for the kitty ... and the mana of thangs.

ALOHA,
Denny T~
Geetar Bedlam<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 14 May 2003 at 08:06 PM.]</p></FONT>

Hey Jess, I just figured out what the public edit notices are for; They're an IQ meter!

DT~

Denny, hardly ever am I able to post without having ta use that edit function, wish I could do that when playing certain tunes, ha ha! Man, I was really curious how you came up with your box positions as far as where they are found on the neck? I'm really used to seeing modes on a guitar neck go up in a certain order that we don't find on the steel as far as the positions of the box's. I wrote out the box's with their individual intervals so I could remember them easier and have a master root note index for the different modes as far as how they lay out on the neck. This only took two pages that I have facing each other in my C6 notebook and is very handy to have sitting on my music stand. I noticed that I was able to find the root note of a mode anywhere on the neck and write out intervals in a three fret box like you did, but at different locations. I was wondering if you have inversions of box's mapped out on your neck in addition to the one's you have already shared with us. This is why I am so curious as to how you arrived at the box's that you have shown us (which work great). It seems like alot to choose from, what method did you use to arrive at your choices? Thanks...

P.S. If and when I make that slow boat to Hawaii, we will have ta try and party some! I have some questions about "Grandular trichomes resin glands, hehe". Hey, you going to Makakilo Brah? Aloha...<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 21 May 2003 at 11:52 AM.]</p></FONT>

Hey guys, I just wanted to share something with those of you that haven't yet made themselves modal interval box charts yet. All the modes found in a given key are all within the same three fret box.

What I did was make myself all the "three fret modal box's" found in the key of C, and only wrote out the intervals found in those modes, without naming any notes. I then highlighted the root notes of each modal box and used a "C6 master note chart" of the whole neck of the steel to find the locations to any mode in any key, works great! I guess this is why Denny picked the box's that he did, duh...

I think this way of using Denny's approach is much easier to use right off the bat if you already understand the how's and why's of the modes. Maybe Denny really is some kind of genius for showing us how simply it is to apply modes to the steel. I haven't found any other web sites or books on steel that talks about modes on the steel in such a way. I find that Denny's approach to steel makes it easier to see chords (big and small) and the partial chords, because you have all the intervals at your command. Combine this with the major and minor blues scale and 6th interval etc. and you got it going on if you can swing your notes and phrase over a given chord progression. Makes improvisation much easier. . What a trip...<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 16 May 2003 at 09:23 AM.]</p></FONT>