The Steel Guitar Forum

Donny, What you say may be true but when you factor in inflation over the years since they were built...have they really increased that much in value?

Brad Malone wrote:Donny, What you say may be true but when you factor in inflation over the years since they were built...have they really increased that much in value?

They decreased in value. Except maybe for some Mavericks a couple of years back (remember those crazy times on ebay?).
You need to compare the "new" price of a PSG 20 or 30 years back to the price of a car, milk, bread, housing and salaries and do the same math with today's figures. You likely will find that even most new PSG's are less costly today, when compared to these figures.
Unless you can play the heck out of it, a PSG is not really a value minded "investment".

Still and coming somewhat back to the subject, none of the pro-PSG offered today are really "cheap" starting in the upper 2 thousands for a D10. A figure which should warrant a quality instrument (and has proven to). Actually, I think that if a builder can't make a quality D10 for close to 3 thousand, he will likely neither be able to for 7 or more thousand.

Look at ZumSteel and you will find that they are not the most expensive brand and still have established themselves as a quality instrument.

Price, at these levels has much to do with the design and the builder's capability to capture intelligently the manufacturing technologies readily available at time of the design and it's evolution(s). This is why PSG's (value wise) have come less expensive.
Years back there was a lot of milling involved. Casts where a cost effective shortcut to produce custom shape parts in relatively small quantities, but still needed milling and lot's of corrective work. Today CNC machining has become available to most and so did custom extrusion. It may be difficult to take advantage of these changes of accessibility of technologies, incorporating them into an existing design unless the builder choses to fundamentally address the whole design. Other builders chose to use new technologies and materials which indeed raise the cost or to give extreme attention to cosmetic details. So some differences in price may be up to a certain degree related to all these factors instead as to short cuts or improvements in quality of the final product... a musical instrument.

... J-D.

<b>THIS Inflation Calculator</b> is a good reality check.

In 1979 I bought a new Emmons D-10 for $1400. In "today's money" that is 4179.79.

Doug Beaumier wrote:<b>THIS Inflation Calculator</b> is a good reality check.

In 1979 I bought a new Emmons D-10 for $1400. In "today's money" that is 4179.79.

And a new Emmons D10 (8&5) goes for about 3800.oo now (factory picker price).

... J-D.

Which goes to show that pedal steel guitars are on the average CHEAPER today than they were in the 70's in relative dollars.

Hey Kevin, they (THe Steels) are cheaper and in most cases of better quality than in 1970..that also goes for the Amps.

I'll agree with that Brad. I think that the steels play much better and are more accurate on the whole, and as I said I think they are a bargain for the work and material,and I don't see them as being expensive for what they are. A good acoustic is $2500.00.

Hey Gary Preston, From what I understand, Bruce spends a lot of time tweaking his finished product before shipping. That is one reason the Zum has such a good reputation because he spends a lot of time making darn sure everything is just "perfect as can be" by tweaking and playing the Steel a few days or so before putting it into the shipping box...never heard anything negative about a Zum....what some of these builders probably need is an older guy on SS that is a perfectionist who could do the quality control work (final tweaking) after the instrument has been built to make sure that it goes out the door in perfect condition. They could give him under-the-table money..that would solve the bookeeping.

In 1979 I bought a new Emmons D-10 for $1400. In "today's money" that is 4179.79.

And just think: all because everyone involved, however directly or otherwise, to whatever degree, wanted a raise. Simple cause and effect.

There are only two business plan: make a living, and make money. One must prevail, and you know which one it seldom is.

Brad Malone wrote:Hey Gary Preston, From what I understand, Bruce spends a lot of time tweaking his finished product before shipping. That is one reason the Zum has such a good reputation because he spends a lot of time making darn sure everything is just "perfect as can be" by tweaking and playing the Steel a few days or so before putting it into the shipping box...never heard anything negative about a Zum....what some of these builders probably need is an older guy on SS that is a perfectionist who could do the quality control work (final tweaking) after the instrument has been built to make sure that it goes out the door in perfect condition. They could give him under-the-table money..that would solve the bookeeping.

Tweaky Steely?
Naw, I don't think so. I have seen many Zum's they are well designed and built guitars. Yes, I can say that, even thou I prefer other brands. IF tweaking was needed... they could as well un-tweak in the owner's hands.
From the ZumSteel website (serial numbers) I understand that "they" or he build(s) about 40 guitars average a year in the last 10 years. Taking vacations, conventions and holidays into consideration that's about 3.7 guitars a month, or almost 1 a week. For a one man operation that does not leave much time for guess work.
But maybe you meant "tweaking" more in the sense of "adjusting"... I would like to think that all builders ship their guitars adjusted properly.

... J-D.

Hey Brad, that's a good point, but I have to respectfully disagree with you regarding amps. Most of todays offerings are built with very cheap/low quality parts, and I've found the reliabilty of a lot of these amps to have a lot to be desired! Good warrenties, yes, but then again, you'll probably need it! It's one of the reasons that Ken Fox's component modifications have become almost necessary, or least to those with decerning ears for tone quality. The prices are good, but quality????

Now first off don't take this as being anything other than conversation, I happen to think that the Steels mentioned in this thread are nothing short of exceptional.

Ok, the other side...

An 18 month wait does not mean it is a better quality, it means it takes 18 months to build THAT order for many many reasons.

Gary's manufacturing conversation is accurate and can be applied. A one man operation is not a bad thing, it's a SLOWER thing. It does not guarantee that it is a BETTER thing.

maybe it takes 16 months TO START YOUR Steel which is scheduled for 18 months delivery ?

I am thinking it does not take 18 months for anyone to assemble a Steel.

theres a reputable company in Texas that builds Steels in less than 18 months, ALL steels are built by TWO people. It's not about the assembly time, I suspect it's about the available parts in inventory .

If all of the parts of the guitar are outsourced and you merely assemble those parts, it would be quite easy to cut your delivery time. And, just for conversation, outsourcing isn't necessarily a bad thing, just not the route some builders choose to go.

Guys it seems to me that when you have been in business for a good while you will stock up on the parts that you know that you will need to build a guitar . This is what you do when you know that the demand is coming ! Afterall most of the parts are no doubt made up with ease . I know that you do have some machine work also and that goes with it . Someone said that if you had all the parts in front of you you can build the guitar real fast and i'm sure thats true and thats the point that i'm trying to make . Also if you build a guitar you should make all the adjustments afterward and spend some playing time on it .If everyone had to rework the guitar when they got it that sure would discourage me from buying that brand of guitar wouldn't it you ? Yes i'm aware you will need to make adjustments to the knee levers to fit you but thats a given in my book .
A question has just popped in my mind !!! Is it just steel players that seem to have all the answers to the issues that you see here on the steel guitar forum ? What if we ( steel players )would run for lets say ''President '' of the U.S.A. All the world problems would be solved . See how easy that was ?
Did i get off the original post ? Sorry . G.P.

hey doug b. ...how does your inflation calculator compare my $50 gig from 1970 to my $50 gig this weekend??

But maybe you meant "tweaking" more in the sense of "adjusting"... I would like to think that all builders ship their guitars adjusted properly.

Yeah JD, Tweaking was a bad choice of words: properly adjusted is much better. The adjusting would usually come after everything has been assembled. It takes a bit of time to do the final quality control work so everything is properly adjusted and aligned..I realize that some guys are faster than others but on a $4000 instrument you would think a guy could spend a day or two making sure everything is just perfect before putting it into the shipping box...this would of course include putting a couple of hours of playing time on it.

Hey Danny, The best amp I found for the Steel so far is the Nashville 112 but I only have it for about 8 months so I better shut up because it could blow up tomorrow. I also have the Peavey 1000 which is also a great amp.

Gary brings the issue home. The issue is most likely related to how much PARTS inventory a builder is willing to have sitting idle, which even in the largest manufacturing situations is critical for cash flow.

Too many parts.. Cash issues.

too few parts.. delivery issues.

If a Steel guitar is assembled the exact same way with the same exact HI Quality parts I doubt it needs much attention after the final screws are tightened.

Tuning and spot checks may be all that is required.

If more than that is required there is an inherent quality design problem. IF a builder has to sit with a New Steel for a day or two to test it ( each one )and tweak it in, that's a problem. IF the parts are correct and the assembly is correct, then the final product is correct.

yes me too, manufacturing and line work for decades.

the more time you spend designing and "proofing" parts before the build, the less time it takes to actually BUILD and test. The brain work is done before the assembly begins.

You can't add quality to a finished product, the quality is designed into the product from the very start, before the first part is screwed down. IF you have to tweak quality after the fact, that probably means you are re-engineering the final product each time, I doubt that is happening.

here's a thought, my wife runs her own business, she is the main blood..I assist but not in the main business.I do all sorts of prep for her. She is a one WOMAN show. As she is preparing orders for clients the phone rings, it's another client. She can A: talk on the phone with new clients to discuss custom products or with past clients who want to re-order but with a slight change, or B: Work on the order in hand that someone is waiting for.

There are many pro's and cons to a one man(woman) show, as buyers we get direct access to the top dawg, call them and speak with them direct, but when we do, the downside is they may no longer be working on a pending order for someone else. Time management for a one man( woman) show is a primary consideration.

Tony I know what you mean buy a one woman show!

Tony You da man ! G.P.