The Steel Guitar Forum

Posted: **19 Aug 2005 8:28 pm**

Sorry Rick - that wasn't meant to be a slight. I just couldn't find the starting point. I'll look at what you linked.

OK - see, this is where the beginner in theory gets lost (and I had my son - a beginner in EVERYTHING - look at it too and he got that "thousand yard stare:

The Chords and a couple of their inversions.

ABC BCA CAB

I 135 351 513
IIm 246 462 624
IIIm 357 573 735
IV 461 614 14
V 572 725 257
VIm 613 136 361
VIIdim 724 247 472

-What are "ABC", "BCA" etc? notes? some part of the scale? pedals? How the heck do those numbers relate to anything else? Where did you hide the key to the lock?

Then there's another similar section below with the same kind of stuff with no explanation. And what's a small"o"? Or a "P"? Again - partial acronyms with no explanation. This is NOT beginning theory - if it is then please explain to me why I'm flat stupid.

Sorry - but I'm lost. And the "here's some modes" doesn't MEAN anything whn I'm sitting here trying to make a chord on an unfamiliar instrument, can't read music, and don't know theory from squat.

Sorry - it's probably very simple, but I just DO NOT grasp it. I'm just frustrated after decades of being able to play - and now I can't...and the lesson materials I find don't point me mentally to " if you want to play T-Bone Shuffle, here's a "blues box" to work with." or something practical. I don't want the tab to "Bud's Bounce" or some other moldy tune, I want to be able to adapt stuff to anything as I've done for years on guitar.

I just CAN'T find the sources. Lots of folks that want to teach me E9 Nashville style. Swell. I had good conversations going with some of those folks until I said I was going with a Fender 8 string in A6 - they all refuse to answer my emails now.

Maybe it's that there are too many darned tunings, but I'm really having problems. I can play a major scale. But that's not a song, and it's certainly not something I can jam with.

And Denny's stuff, while probably good, starts out with an immediate death knell to me : Math. That just kills my whole ability to read the stuff, something I mentioned previously. Vapor lock of the brain. I just read his entire "theory beginner" page again,and it's totally confusing...things like: Major = Maj7

Huh?

I thought a Maj7 was a "jazz chord" that we were told to avoid like the plague because of the ugly flatted root note, and that "Major = Major.. 1,3,5 (I think). So how can "C", "CMaj" and CMaj7" alll mean the same thing? where did the regular old "C" chord go if all those have the 7th note (that we don't want to play unless we're doing jazz)????

And something about "double flats"? Isn't that just A DIFFERENT NOTE? If there's a reason, explain it!

And if 6 is also called 13 (and 2 is 9 and 4 is 11) - why don't we jut call it one or the other and cut all the crap? The explanation given doesn't explain why...just that it IS.

Sorry, but this stuff isn't written for the unschooled. It may be a refresher - but does ANYONE know of a net source for the basics without all the math junk and with logical explanations? This stuff is truly rocket science material, and I got a D in algebra 37 years ago (and still think it's mostly useless). FWIW I'm in corporate management for whatever that's worth, so please don't think I'm just some dolt off the corner who never got past 5th grade. I'm just stumped and need some basic guidance.

Realize again (I've repeated this several times) that I've been an ear player for 40+ years and pretty damned successful at it - so it's completely frustrating not having the physical skills to instantaneously change to an unfamiliar instrument and THEN run into brick walls due to the innumerable tunings and sysytems out there, all of which require (in my mind) a deep knowledge of theory to even try to approach.

Simply, I'm no longer a musician. That sucks beyond all comprehension. There are days now when I feel like selling everything, throwing away decades of enjoyment and saying screw it...obviously, I'm not having a good week with this stuff.[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 19 August 2005 at 11:11 PM.][This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 19 August 2005 at 11:24 PM.][This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 19 August 2005 at 11:28 PM.]

Posted: **19 Aug 2005 8:40 pm**

denny,

you are doing us all great....just downloaded some pages off your website and correspondence. will be in touch again...

much aloha

------------------
kay

Posted: **19 Aug 2005 10:03 pm**

Jim, Since you can play major scale, you're half way there to understanding this great stuff clled music theory. Write out the notes of the C major scale...example cdefgabc. now number those notes 12345678. c=1(and

, d=2, e=3. etc. a major chord is spelled 135 or ceg. Use the same number/scale note relationship to identify chord positions in a song. For instance in the key of C the I major chord is Cmaj (ceg)(135 of the c scale), count up the C scale 4 notes and you will arrive at the IV major chord (fac)(135 of the F major scale), count up one more and you will arrive at the V major chord (gbd)(135 of the G major scale. This is the number system and the famous I-IV-V chord progression you've heard of and which hundreds of thousands of songs are based upon. It's really kind of fun and interesting stuff once you start learning it. I hope this helps to get you started.

Posted: **19 Aug 2005 10:39 pm**

Terry, thanks - but that statement (in the key of C the I major chord is Cmaj (ceg)(135 of the c scale), doesn't jive with the "Cmaj meaning Cmaj7" stuff in Denny' "lessons". I'm looking at Denny's stuff right now, and I quote"

THE WORD "MAJOR" WITHOUT ANY OTHER NOTATION TO THE CONTRARY, SIGNIFIES THAT ALL THE NOTES IN THE MAJOR SCALE ARE NATURAL (not having sharp or flat scale NUMBERS). THE TERM MAJOR 7 ALSO MEANS THE SAME THING A SCALE OR CHORD IS UNDERSTOOD TO BE MAJOR UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTATED. So if you see the notation "C Scale", Cmaj, or Cmaj 7, they all mean the same thing."

That's where the confusion sets in. Too many experts and too much conflicting information. I haven't a clue what's right at this point.

So Terry - he's saying your "Cmaj" is Cmaj7". Is he right?

I always thought those were different chords, but that's only 40 years talking.

Something is really mixed up here.

Posted: **19 Aug 2005 10:49 pm**

Actually, I just went back and re-read one of Denny's posts. Theory (he says) can't be grasped by those with non-mathematical minds, so maybe I'm just in the wrong "room" altogether, should ignore his and Rick's stuff and just try to find ever-so-elusive tab in the tuning I use. I'd LIKE to finally know what I'm doing - but I guess I've ben told I'm incompetent, so I'll forget about it.

I guess I don't have another choice - because if Denny's theory on learning is correct, I have ZERO chance of learning any theory.

My original background was in teaching - and that's the LAST thing I would ever expect a professional teacher to say.

But I guess that's the attitude. Seems oddly typical, just as those who dumped me when I diidn't conform to their E9-only whims.[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 19 August 2005 at 11:51 PM.]

Posted: **20 Aug 2005 12:25 am**

I think that part of the trick here is that the subject is fairly easy to grasp but sort of difficult to explain. (And even once the part about the movable two-fret boxes is understood it's still not entirely clear how to apply it.)

If I tried to explain how to open a door in pecise detail it might get kind of bogged down (starting with your arms relaxed and at your sides, swing the appropriate arm upward (see appendix A to determine which arm is appropriate depending on which way the door swings), hand forward with the fingers relaxed and slightly spread until the first, second and third fingers and thumb come into contact with the doorknob (fig. 1), thumb on top... etc.).

For me, the key to the material Denny is presenting is in his chart which shows the different two-fret boxes and which mode they represent relative to the key of the song. Reading it I discovered that in C6 tuning, frets three and five contain all the notes of the C Dorian mode, which is a useful place to look if attempting to play, for example, the blues. It's only a starting point, and says nothing about actually playing music--it's just a helpful quick mental reference when trying to figure out what notes to play, or what harmonies might work.

Music theory is not something difficult to understand, it's just a little bit difficult to teach. Try a bunch of different sources and you're sure to discover some way of learning that works for you.

-Travis

Posted: **20 Aug 2005 1:24 am**

Simply, I'm no longer a musician.

Jim, that's not true. Being an ear player like you, I can sympathize. You can be a musician without this knowlege; for many, it is an enrichment, an alternate view of their current knowlege.

A major scale in C, as you noted, is indeed the naturals, played with C as the root. Those same notes, when started on A, form a minor scale; each other mode is the same set of notes, started at a different root.

Jazz musicians like Charlie Parker 'rediscovered' these 'church modes,' as they called them, as ways of playing different lines over the changes, revitalizing jazz.

I didn't learn the various modes in piano theory; the first time I heard young guitarists refer to the phyrigian scale, it phyreaked me out that my musical knowlege could be so lacking.

Denny's modal substitutions showed me that I had been making these substitutions for a long time, without thinking in a modal context. To understand requires some immersion in it, and that may not be for everybody.

So don't worry, be happy, and keep on pickin'. After all your guitar doesn't care if CMaj7 is an Em with a C added to the bottom.

I personally wouldn't know what to do without a Maj7; nobody ever told me any better, or that it was ugly because it had a potentially dissonant interval. I just play it, and you have your chord preferences.

Just my humble view.

Posted: **20 Aug 2005 3:06 am**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The Chords and a couple of their inversions.

ABC BCA CAB

I 135 351 513
IIm 246 462 624
IIIm 357 573 735
IV 461 614 14
V 572 725 257
VIm 613 136 361
VIIdim 724 247 472

-What are "ABC", "BCA" etc? notes? some part of the scale? pedals? How the heck do those numbers relate to anything else? Where did you hide the key to the lock?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Example I

A "C major chord" = C E G = 1 3 5

This is the ABC form of the chord

It's "First Inversion" is = E G C = 3 5 1

This is the BCA form of that chord

It's "Second Inversion" is = G C E = 5 1 3

This is the CAB form of that chord.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Then there's another similar section below with the same kind of stuff with no explanation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My initial page is just an assembly of various charts I wrote up ... on the "Number System" ... since that is what I use.

And what's a small "o"?

It is the symbol for a "diminished chord" (1 3b 5b 6)

Or a "P"? Again - partial acronyms with no explanation.

Well, in this case there was :

M3 = Major Third
m3 = Minor Third
P4 = Perfect Fourth

P = Perfect

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
This is NOT beginning theory <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never said it was ... "Basic Theory" is the title of that page ... as opposed to "Advanced Theory" ...

It was/is not my intent to "teach" music theory on my site.

I just assembled various writtings and charts that I had done in the past ... in my own search for an understanding of music and the steel guitar.

And the "here's some modes" doesn't MEAN anything

Modes = Church Modes = Ionian, Dorian, etc

They are just scales ... that are useful in improvisation and melody writting.

I'm sitting here trying to make a chord on an unfamiliar instrument, can't read music, and don't know theory from squat.

If you want to learn "beginning music theory" ... a local community college or perhaps a piano teacher ...

And Denny's stuff, while probably good, starts out with an immediate death knell to me : Math

Well, its using numbers to represent notes so that the melody, harmony, etc can be transposed into a different key ...

But there is very little "math" involved in the basics.

And if 6 is also called 13 (and 2 is 9 and 4 is 11) - why don't we jut call it one or the other and cut all the crap? The explanation given doesn't explain why...just that it IS.

A C6 chord is C E G A ... 1 3 5 6

A C13 chord is C E G A Bb ... 1 3 5 6 7b

Similar but not the exact same thing.

Sorry, but this stuff isn't written for the unschooled.

No one said it was.

It may be a refresher - but does ANYONE know of a net source for the basics without all the math junk and with logical explanations?

This may be your "way" of speaking/writting ... and you said ...

Sorry Rick - that wasn't meant to be a slight.

But it sure sounds that way to me.

I'm sorry you didn't gain any "insight from my site" ...

------------------

Aiello's House of Gauss


My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 20 August 2005 at 09:01 AM.]

Posted: **20 Aug 2005 4:04 am**

Jim, hang in there buddy. To answer your question.....So Terry - he's saying your "Cmaj" is Cmaj7". Is he right?.....In a way, yes and in a way, no. I stopped with the "triad" (three notes, the 1st, 3rd and 5th steps of the scale. A Cmaj7 has those three steps but it also has the 7th degree of the C scale or "b". So it would read 1357 (cegb) or any other "inversions" of those scale degrees or order you want to put the notes in. Jim. I'm an ear player too. I still can't sight-read music, but I have to tell ya, when I started studying music theory I found it fascinating. I even did what Rick suggested and went back to school to study it. If you would like to email me personally I will be more than happy to try and help you through any of this stuff I can. Any knowledge I have on this matter is yours! bluesky@spinn.net Peace.

[This message was edited by Terry Farmer on 20 August 2005 at 05:06 AM.]

Posted: **20 Aug 2005 6:06 am**

I have been struggling to absorb stuff like this for ages, and I've found a few things that can help the visualisation of some of it... hope this helps....

1. Modes
They hold Greek names reflecting the cities that preferred a given mode in times past. The Greeks felt that playing music in a particular mode would incline one towards specific behavior associated with that mode. Hence the names!

Major Modes (i.e. with a major 3rd)
Lydian
Ionian
Mixolydian

Minor Modes (i.e. with a flattened 3rd)
Dorian
Aolian
Phrygian
Locrian

Why does it help to remember the names? Because other musicians use them as shorthand.

2. Complicated, right?
Not really. Try this: Play a G major scale, the one you already know. Start on G and work up one octave to G again. Easy huh? You just played a G Ionian scale. OK, so that's one mode/scale learned.

Now play an F major scale. Easy huh? Now let's make it REALLY HARD (not). Play the F major scale, but skip the first F note and start on the G instead. Sing the F note in your head if you need to. So, "lah", G, A, etc. up to the octave F. Now play the G above that last F just to play 8 notes.

Congrats! You just played a G Dorian scale.

3. Hang on, explain that again
Ok. If you play guitar or piano, you may be able to see this more easily....

* A G major scale that starts on G and goes to G is G Ionian.

* An F major scale that starts on G and goes to G is G Dorian

and so on.

4. Go on, lay it all out!

Now you can memorise which scale degree to start at for each mode.

Lydian: IV
Ionian: I
Mixolydian: V
Dorian: II
Aolian: VI
Phrygian: III
Locrian: VII

The patterns of tones (T) and semitones (S) are as follows:

TTTsTTs Lydian
TTsTTTs Ionian (modern major)
TTsTTsT Myxolydian
TsTTTsT Dorian
TsTTsTT Aolian (modern minor)
sTTTsTT Phrygian
sTTsTTT Locrian

Hope this helps someone.

Ian

Posted: **20 Aug 2005 6:11 am**

Mike Perlowin wrote a good book titled Music Theory in the Real World. This might be helpful in grasping some of the concepts Denny and Rick are describing.

------------------
Brad's Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars

Posted: **20 Aug 2005 6:27 am**

I'm grateful to all who have taken the time and interest to provide this information.

When Denny's Modal Theory site was discovered, I understood nothing. Hence the photo (my attempt at a suspended chord). I have since taken a couple of night classes on music theory and it was a very good thing to do. I'm repeating the intermediate class this fall.

It's about the journey and the journey may be a long one. I have made progress and at least understand the terminology and how to figure something out if I sit down to it.

The beauty of what Denny and Rick have done is that it can be printed out or referred to when need be. I may not understand something today, but it may come to me in two weeks and then I'll jump back to the information to recap and continue. It's a process. A process in progress.

Sometimes I'll listen to a melody, or a phrase and not be able to play it then & there. All of a sudden, it comes to me at a later point because I have thought about it and have it familiar in my head & ears.

That's how I view this anyhow.

This would be a good workshop for the HSGC in Joliet. Of course it would have to be approved by the CEO (chief embezzlement officer) of Uketone......

Posted: **20 Aug 2005 7:17 am**

"Realize again (I've repeated this several times) that I've been an ear player for 40+ years and pretty damned successful at it..."

"Simply, I'm no longer a musician."

Yo Jim -- check out this definition of musician at:
http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Musician

My favorite line is "Human beings did not begin producing music by banging away on a keyboard..." Before theory existed, could we call them musicians?

You said that you've been an ear player for 40+ years. I say then GO WITH THAT! I started on steel 5 years ago. Never had even touched one until then. I read a few things about tunings. All I knew was I wanted that Hawaiian and western-swing sound I loved so much. I found out that C6 was about the best place to start, so I went from there. I tuned up my little Fender Champion 6-stringer to the recommened C6 (C-E-G-A-C-E, l-h), and started playing -- by ear. It became obvious to me pretty quickly that I could find my way around, as long as I knew what key I was in, and where my ROOT notes where in that key.

I'd just put on CD's, and jam with them... A LOT. Ask my wife -- I drove her crazy! If you're an ear player, it should take you .02 seconds to figure out what key and where that root is when you "drop the needle" (to use an extremely archaic term).

Use your bottom and second strings (your C strings) as your starting point, and find your key from there, just using relative pitch. If they're in the key of G, you know that you'll have to put your bar across the seventh fret, as this is your home base. OK, now they went to a IV chord (in the key of G). Just slide that bar up five frets. Voila!

This the UBER-SIMPLE way of doing it, and you will quickly realize that it's not gonna really get it, if you want to make interesting music. From there, use your ears to find combinations of notes that fit in whatever is being played on the CD you're jamming with. If you have a really good pair of ears, you'll find your way around quickly, and from there, you should start to understand more of theoretical side of things described in the previous posts and websites.

I did not begin producing music by banging away on a keyboard, either. I started singing (ears) along with records when I was a little kid, and when I was 10, got a cheap guitar and a chord book. I learned three chords, and then used my ears to figure out other stuff. For the record, I have a degree in music from Indiana University (aka "the factory"). I know the theory, and use it when I need it, but I've always relied on my ears first as a way to make music, and use theory as a tool for working things out.

Anyway, just my .02 cents. Works for me! Good luck and keep at it.

------------------
Todd James Weger/RD/RTD
1956 Fender Stringmaster T-8 (C6, A6, B11); 1960 Fender Stringmaster D-8 (C6, B11/A6); Chandler RH-4 Koa semi-hollow lapsteel (open G); Regal resonator (open D or G)

Posted: **20 Aug 2005 9:23 am**

A couple notes"

1. The "no longer a musician" comment comes from my recent vout with a physical disability with my left hand. I can't play any of the instruments I *know*, so that's why the statement.

2. The "bang it out with records" is a good idea and the only thing I HAVE been able to try. It's just a long road when due to the lack of standardization in tunings and pedals (I know this is the no peddlers board, but the problems are the same) it's tough to find real-world shortcuts - i. I can play rolls like crazy, but don't know where to put the darned bar.

3. Just ordered Mike's book - hopefully that will help.

4. Being math-deficient, I still have my doubts and preconceived notions. Those are hard to lose.

But the Maj = Maj7 and such that I asked about above still hasn't been answered and still makes no sense to me.

Posted: **20 Aug 2005 9:48 am**

Interesting and enjoyable thread. I've noticed over the years that some folks grasp and use music theory, and some folks "don't get it"- but the truth is, if you play "by ear", you're still using theory whether you know it or not.

The study and active application of theory just speeds up the process, and there are many "ah-ha" moments of quick progress that make any mental effort well worth it.

I agree with Jim's comments that many threads/sites assume more knowledge than some readers have, and that omissions/shorthand can make it more confusing.- Terry really nails it with the door analogy. Although many of the concepts are simple, explanation of the whole process takes more ink and study time than will fit in any internet thread.

I'm currently writing a book about understanding and relating music theory and particularly the number system to the E9 tuning. There will be some very advanced information, but I'm starting from ground zero to explain the very questions this thread brings up, to have all the information in one place. It's a daunting task, because there is so much to cover, and trying to keep it understandable and lucid may make some of it unpalatable to more advanced players- while any attempt to overly simplify breeds the confusion seen in some of these threads.

In the end, it will have to be a fairly huge book- but since I'm aiming it at the people who really want to understand their music and their playing better, I hope it will fill a gap. There really doesn't seem to be anything like this available.

So far I've answered all of Jim's questions (in the book) so I hope I'm on the right track... Unfortunately I understand the references to theory being "too much like math". That's what kept me away from theory study at first, until I realized that theory was the very secret weapon I kept wishing I "just knew". It is a true shortcut to greatly expanding what you can do, and how you sound.

Just one small example, since there's been mention of the modes and what they're good for:
An "ear player" may know through time and experience that G major scales and licks work very well over E minor chords- like just soloing in G over the whole "Rocky Top" progression. He may not know that he is in fact already using the Aeolian minor mode every time he does that- and may not realize that every G scale and position will work over Eminor...
It is less likely that an "ear only" player will have made the connection (noted in an above thread) that any major scale played from it's second to ninth note (an octave scale starting on the second note), is also a minor mode (Dorian)... although he may have tripped over the fact that D major licks sound ok over E minor- but with just a little study, we learn that to play Dorian, we can just drop two frets back from any minor chord root, and we have an entirely new set of sounds for minors, which are often a stumbling block for players with plenty of major licks.

What I'm getting at is this: it takes some work and study to learn and understand why and how the modes work- but in actual bandstand useage, as simple as playing D or G major over E minor for two different minor sounds. (These are not the only choices for minors by far!)

I'm really interested in making this information more accessible and understandable as I can, and would greatly appreciate email contact from anybody with ideas to share on how to communicate this to as many readers as possible.

Threads like this have been a big help.

------------------
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com

Posted: **20 Aug 2005 10:06 am**

But the Maj = Maj7 and such that I asked about above still hasn't been answered and still makes no sense to me.

From Denny's site:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

THE WORD "MAJOR" WITHOUT ANY OTHER NOTATION TO THE CONTRARY, SIGNIFIES THAT ALL THE NOTES IN THE SCALE ARE NATURAL (not having sharp or flat scale NUMBERS).

THE TERM MAJOR 7 ALSO MEANS THE SAME THING.

A SCALE OR CHORD IS UNDERSTOOD TO BE MAJOR UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTATED.

So if you see the notation "C scale", CMaj or C Maj 7, they all mean the same thing.

Major = For scales it means Maj7. (For chords, simple Major triad.)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The C Major Scale = C D E F G A B = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

The C Major Chord (Major triad) = C E G = 1 3 5

The C Maj7 Chord = C E G B = 1 3 5 7

The C7 (dominant seventh) Chord = C E G Bb = 1 3 5 7b

Denny was saying that the term "Major" ... implys that the seventh scale degree (B in this case) ... is not flattened as it is in the C dominant 7 chord ... in either the scale or the chord.

He wasn't saying the C Major Chord is the same chord as the C Maj7 Chord ...

Just that the term "Major" ... tells the musician to use a natural 7 not a flattened 7.

His point was ... that if you are playing a scale over a C Major Chord and/or a C Maj7 chord ... you would use the "C" Ionian mode (Major Scale) to build your improvisation ...

C D E F G A B = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

If you were to play over a C7 (dominant seventh) ... you would use the "C" Mixolydian mode ...

C D E F G A Bb = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7b ...

What Denny and I "tried" to show ... in slightly different ways ... is that the C6 tuning sets up these "Modes" in neat little 2 fret boxes.

The ones that you really will find useful are :

The Ionian Mode ... 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ... to play over a Major Chord or Maj7 Chord.

The Dorian Mode ... 1 2 3b 4 5 6 7b ... to play over a Minor Chord.

The Mixolydian Mode ... 1 2 3 4 5 6 7b ... to play over a Dominant Seventh Chord.

Example: Key of C

Chord Progression: C / Dm / G7 / CMaj7

First Measure = The "C" Ionian Mode will sound good over the C chord (a major chord).

Second Measure: The "D" Dorian Mode will sound good over that Dm chord.

Third Measure: The "G" Mixolydian Mode will sound good over that G7 (dominant seventh) chord.

Fourth Measure: The "C" Ionian Mode will sound good over the C Maj7 chord ... as it did in the first measure C Major Chord.

Thats basically whats goin' on here ... trying to describe scales that fit over a chord ... so solos, improvs, melodies ... will sound good.

The C6 Tuning makes these modes easily accessable ... in neat, tidy 2 fret boxes.

C Ionian Mode Box ... Frets 5 & 7

D Dorian Mode Box ... Frets 5 & 7

G Mixolydian Mode Box ... Frets 5 & 7

Hmmm ... looky there ... One box has all the "modes" ... for any particular Key.

Please note ... it is not the "Homebase" position of C (i.e. the open/12th fret).

------------------

Aiello's House of Gauss


My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 20 August 2005 at 12:40 PM.]

Posted: **20 Aug 2005 10:17 am**

Jim I just posted without having seen your latest, and I'll try to answer just that Maj/Maj7 question. As in the "door analagoy" there are some fundamentals we need to know, like that any major scale is constructed of Whole (2 fret) and Half (1 fret)step intervals in this pattern:
W-W-1/2-W-W-W- 1/2
from the chromatic scale of all possible notes (same as on any guitar string). We need to know that when counting, the notes all have a sharp (or flat) note between them except for B and C and E and F.

So on your 4th string E9, you have a chromatic scale:
E F F# G G# A A# B C C# D D# E F F# etc.

Applying the scale formula above to the notes available from the chromatic scale, starting from C, we get:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
C D E F G A B C D E F G A

The scale just repeats from C again, but the higher numbers are used because:

Chords are made from stacks of third intervals, (notes three notes apart inclusive, such as C & E, F & A, and so on)

so we just skip every other note in the scale to come up with:
CEG = Cmajor
CEGB= Cmajor7
CEGBD= Cmajor9
CEGBDF= Cmajor11
CEGBDFA= Cmajor 13

You can see how if you just keep skipping every other note, by the time we get to Cmajor13 we've used every note in the scale.
These are all variations on C major chords, and are used for different flavor, melody or harmony depending on personal taste or song requirements. (As you've mentioned, the Cmajor7 has that "Misty" schmaltzy smooth jazz flavor, depending on where it's used- but you can use it basically anywhere you'd use a three-note C major chord. Hence Denny's Cmajor= Cmajor7. The other chords are also all substitutions for a basic C major.

If you changed the scale above by flatting the third and seventh degrees, ie:

1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 8 9 b3 11 5 13
C D Eb F G A Bb C D Eb F G A

you can then go through the process to get all of the C minor chords.

I wrote the minor pattern out with the Lower" numbers in the second octave, so you can see how we've already used the Root, 3, 5 and 7 notes by the time we get to the 9, 11, and 13. Perhaps it's more obvious now how chords are named.
Even in answering this one question, you can see it takes some explanation, and that I've glossed over such things as why A# and Bb are the "same" note- that's why it's gonna take a big book.
Hope this helped some.

Posted: **20 Aug 2005 10:20 am**

PS: The other modes in the Key of C ...

The E Phrygian, F Lydian, A Aeolian and B Locrian ...

Yep ... Same Box ... Frets 5 & 7

The reason its nice to know this ... rather than just say ... "use the major scale" for everything ...

Is because most songs don't stay within the strict "harmony" based chords in a key ...

Ex ... Key of C = C Dm Em F G7 Am Bo(dim) ...

So if a D7 is used in a song that is in the Key of C ...

The best sounding scale to build a solo on ... over that D7 chord ... would be the "D" Mixolydian ... not the "D" Dorian.

Thats why its nice to know where all your "boxes" are ...

Denny and I just have different ways of dealing with that ...

Same boxes ... different ways to memorize.

Now ... back to makin' steel guitars I go ...

------------------

Aiello's House of Gauss


My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 20 August 2005 at 12:42 PM.]

Posted: **20 Aug 2005 4:10 pm**

I have not meant to belittle anyones' learning "abilities" ...and have gone to some extent to say that difficulty in learning certain things is QUITE NORMAL ...and NOT an "affliction". It is axiom that the vast majority of people find some things that are particularly difficult for them to learn. IT IS A NORMAL HUMAN TRAIT. It is also a normal trait for the vast majority of us to express our frustrations when we are finding certain things challenging. So let's all hang in here together ...and consider that it's not unlikely that each of us will have our own times of being frustrated at learning or teaching something, and have this great SG Forum's good people to turn to.

In each case of difficulty learning certain things, the "trick" for "teaching" and learning (usually each person doing a bit of both) is to find the learning mechanics / angles / perspectives that suits the person having difficulty learning OR teaching!

I must say that this SGF IS INDEED one of the very best teaching / learning resources for Steel Guitar AND Music Theory (and social skills!

). And it is equally valuable to every level of Player learning, as well as teachers of the moment. Where else could a person find so many reasonably knowledgeable people with such desire to try to cover subject matter from so many angles and perspectives ....with such personalized care!

I would suggest that no-one gets overly discouraged; Although discouragement is normal and inherent for most people motivated to learn and/or play music and/or a particular instrument. Having patience and reading and asking questions, particularly on this SG Forum, is a gold mine for those that desire and have the neccessary motivation to learn. Even in subject matter particularly difficult for a person, someone is likely to present angles / perspectives that provide keys to the particular brain-mechanics that person learns better by.

-------

I am preparing answers to questions here as fast as I am able in a very busy schedule.

Aloha,
DT~
[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 21 August 2005 at 12:08 AM.]

Posted: **20 Aug 2005 5:27 pm**

Jim,

The book that helped me the most was Mark Levine's Jazz Theory book. I know it says Jazz theory, but I found it to be very clear in its explainations and its a great resource.

Posted: **21 Aug 2005 2:16 am**

I want to say thanks to Denny and Rick et al, for taking the time to break some of this theory down. I don't think you guys realize how important your knowledge is to us new guys. This forum has got to be THE MOST important learning tool that exists for steel guitar.

Rick

Posted: **21 Aug 2005 7:23 am**

Bill - thanks. I'll look for a copy of that...yikes, $40....a "used" copy, that is.

Denny & Rick - I apologize if you felt insulted by any of my posts...I was feeling the frustration of essentially being "dead in the water". When you're used to playing at least a couple times a week for a few decades and then go to zero because you can't play the instruments you used to, it's tough. I hope you understand. It's tough trying to play "catch-up" when so much unfamiliar material (theory) is required to do it at least semi-competently.

I'll keep hunting for theory sources that get me going from scratch and also materials that can "shortcut" some things on the A6 tuning. I thought I might have hit a good source when someone sent me a couple Ernie Ball books on A6 - a 7 book series with only the last one introducing the pedals. But it's all notation. Oh, well.

Posted: **21 Aug 2005 7:41 am**

From my experience I would strongly suggest a live classroom situation if you are interested in learning theory.

There is quite a difference between a book and a live instructor. You'll get much more from an instructor.

If there is an adult learning center, college, or educational institute in your local area that offers a night class, a couple of hours a week, it will be well worth it. The peices of the puzzle come together easier and quicker.

Posted: **21 Aug 2005 7:49 am**

I hope you understand. It's tough trying to play "catch-up" when so much unfamiliar material (theory) is required to do it at least semi-competently.

I certainly understand frustration.

How 'bout a different approach ...

Try tuning your steel to E Major ...

lo to hi

E B E G# B E ...

This will put a more familiar "guitar" face on your steel ... one that you will "hear" more familiar sounds (cause you played guitar for so long).

The Fretboard will lay out as follows:

<pre>
Open = E Chord
Fret 1 = F Chord
Fret 3 = G Chord
Fret 5 = A chord
Fret 7 = B Chord
Fret 8 = C Chord
Fret 10= D Chord
Fret 12= E chord
Fret 13= F chord
Fret 15= G Chord
.
.
.
</pre>

Some seriously good music was/is played on this tuning ... and because of your familiarity with the Guitar ... most of the things you already know will be right there under your bar ... within a fret or two anyway.

It'll get you back playin' ...

Good luck

------------------

Aiello's House of Gauss


My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 21 August 2005 at 08:53 AM.]

Posted: **21 Aug 2005 3:45 pm**

Jim,

I am not offended at all; Honesty ...even "brutal" honesty... is right down my alley. And I too got shot out of my lucrative / enjoyable career saddle 10 years ago due to an injury ...compounding difficulties I have, not unlike those you desribed. I think I can see the pages you're on better and better as this discussion chain progresses.

You should see me when I get frustrated; I make Taz seem like Mickey Mouse!

BUT, the nature of my (and other forms) of autism (Am I see, Kay he why, am oh you as he) is that we tend to be quite frank and seem bit goofy about things, because we are a bit deficient in understanding finesse; Finesse is quite fuzzy around subject matters for us

...although I've sorta learned to use recital of finesse by rote, to fit in with society's pension for protocol

. More than a few of my Friends call me Brutally Honest; And honest to God, brutality is not my intent ...most of the time.

So our partnership in finding new/different/better learning/instructing processes here is sorta like fishing for birds with a kite (It CAN be done)!

If you're not aware, there was a very successful and popular Hawaiian Steeler about 60 years ago who played with hand prosthetics! He played quite well with special leather cup devices on each wrist stump. Sorry I don't remember his name right-off, but I'll bet someone else will chime right in here with the name pretty soon.

Aloha,
DT~

ps: I'm putting the last touches on a number of questions that have come up in this discussion chain. Hopefully I can get those finished soon.
[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 26 August 2005 at 07:56 AM.]

The Steel Guitar Forum

Recap: Why learn 6th tuning & simple mode theory