The Steel Guitar Forum

Well let's see. It is definitely inspired by the old Jordan Bosstone, but it's taken a number of twists and turns to get where it is now. Sonically it really doesn't resemble the Bosstone so much anymore, but the general topology and appoach to getting distortion harmonics is similar. It is NOT from the traditional "overdrive" family that has been pretty much defined by the tubescreamer approach with clipping diodes in the opamp's feedback path. What that basically means is that the Dirt Box is very much NOT compressed. That's why I gave it a second name or description of "dynamic overdrive". The thing is very expressive and responsive to picking dynamics.

The thing covers a lot of range. Barely driven but with the volume cranked, it's quite clean, but has a definite snap and punch to it, a lot like an amp just barely starting to clip. Then in the middle range of drive it really becomes more of what I'd consider an "overdrive" sound. Pretty musical, kind of sort of like a smallish amp driving pretty good. Then if you really drive it hard, it definitely gets into something resembling the fuzzy character of a Bosstone or a Fuzzface, but still very unique. It doesn't have that definitive rasp of a real Bosstone, which I happen to also like in the right place. That little toggle on the front goes from thin (original Bosstone low end) to fat, which is very full bodied and beefy.

It's definitely not in the family of Fulldrives, Tubescreamers, and Zendrives. Those pedals are very natural, very smooth, very compressed, and "pretty" sounding. This pedal is a bit more nasty, a bit more "stanky" to use a technical term. Peter Mayer, Jimmy Buffett's guitarist, has a prototype, and he said it replaced his Fulltone Fulldrive II as his main drive pedal. He said the way that it's so dynamic is what really does it for him. Pick light and it's clean. Pick hard and it breaks and bites. He said it feels like driving an old Deluxe. To me it's not really the same sound, but I see what he means as far as dynamic response and how the picking has huge control over the amount of dirt. Another friend in town Jim Peters Jr. (hi Jim Sr.) said that it was an instant Eric Johnson tone. I guess that would be the fuzzface aspect to it.

This is not a "booster" pedal that is meant to slam a tube amp's front end to drive it into amp overdrive. Although you can crank the volume of this pedal and do some pretty good damage if you want it to.

Honestly, I developed it with 6-string in mind, mainly because I rarely use dirt on pedal steel. But it really does work for steel. If you liked the Bosstone on steel, this will do similar things harmonically and dynamiically, but it's going to have a silkier, less gritty and raspy top end, and (in the fat position) a fuller, beefier low end. Also, where the old Bosstone tends to dump the highs of the steel's pickup and then re-create highs thru its distortion process, the Dirt Box instead actually preserves the highs and clarity of the steel pickup all the way thru, so less dirt is needed to put some "hair" on the sound.

I hope to have these things going by mid/late july. I don't have a price on them yet either as we are still doing a cost analysis. But I'll be sure to let y'all know as soon as I do.

Brad

Also, another thumbs up to the Xotic BB preamp. Although I personally prefer their AC Booster pedal instead. It doesn't quite get as dirty as the BB Preamp, but it has a very useful range of drive. Both the AC and BB are fantastic pedals. A bit overpriced, but they seriously do a lot of good stuff. Here are links to both.

http://www.prosoundcommunications.com/e ... c_booster/

http://www.prosoundcommunications.com/e ... bb_preamp/


Brad

Absolutelly no midrange "hump" (which Jim talks about) and very low noise as you crank up the gain. The seperate bass & treble controls allow for alterations if switching guitars (and steels) or to another amp.
Some dealers do discount them from the website price.
Of course...if Brad's putting out anything including his new Dirt Box, it's gotta be top notch as well!
Maybe he'll stick some audio samples on his site one of these days

We still don't have an example of what you are going after in terms of tone. Can you refer to a recording by someone?

However, one suggestion if you haven't tried it would be to use the POD you have either in front of the amp or in the effects loop. There should be enough amp models in there that you could find something you like.

Brad builds quality electronics. Brad is honest and I like him. I am coming out with my own distortion unit, designed especially for steel guitar first. It plugs directly into the end of the steel guitar like the old Boss Tone. This puts the controls at your finger tips instead of on the floor.
The electronics will do all aspects of distortion. Clipping diodes in the output, or in the feedback loop, plus a new distortion trick not found in any circuit I have seen. I did not design the electronics to overdrive an amplifier, so you can control distortion even at low volumes.

I'm intrigued by both Brad's and Keith's projects, as they both fill the "missing link" of low-volume distortion instead of "overdrive" as it's usually known (which Brad describes pretty much as I do).

I've often discussed the "too much amp" syndrome, where it's difficult (if not impossible) to get a good, warm tone out of an amp turned up to "2" (as a typical description), and distortion tones end up thin, ragged, and cheesy (not in a good way...). If these two devices can be used to either 1) warm up an "overkill" amp, or 2) get a decent low-volume distortion tone out of an "overkill" amp, that would be a real plus. As I mentioned before, the Dyna Red gets close, but still thins out.

At some point I'd love to run both through a variety of amps/guitars - including normally "bad idea" setups - and see what develops.

Jim, the Seymour Duncan Twin Tube box does just what you are asking for. I guess it can be cranked up to overdrive an amp, but that is not how I use it. It gets its distortion by overdriving its own internal tubes. It has its own gain and volume controls. I use its volume control simply to match the normal output of my steel (the box is before my volume pedal), so that the volume doesn't change when I hit the stomp button. So in use I set the box gain to give the type of real tube crunch or distortion/overdrive sound I want, I set the box volume so that the volume is the same whether the stomp is in or out, and I use the volume pedal and amp volume to set the overall volume (with no effect on the distortion sound). I use it with clean-to-the-top Fender silverface amps. I haven't tried it, but I think it would sound almost as good with a clean solid-state amp. The way I use it, I don't count on any overdrive or distortion from the amp. So this gives a constant distortion/overdrive sound that is sensitive to my picking, and that can be set with the volume pedal and amp to any volume level, very low to as high as the amp will go. At low amp volumes I am not getting the power tube bloom or overdrive from the amp, but the box has its own bloom and overdrive. Although it is a type of tube preamp, it does not sound like an amp preamp being overdriven alone without the power tubes being pushed (the typical gain up/master volume down sound), but somehow manages to sound like a preamp and power amp being pushed, but at any volume level you choose.

The difference between this and other boxes (including Brad's and Keith's I think?) is that it uses real tubes being pushed, not merely a solid-state circuit that attempts to immitate real tubes being pushed. There are also a few other boxes out there that use real tubes. They are all a bit expensive (for a stomp box), and I've only tried this one; but I expect they all put the solid-state boxes to shame.

David - I'm familiar with that, the Real Tube, Blues Tube and other tube-based overdrives.

Some like them for the preamp gain sound. Others (myself included) are looking for the power-tube drive of a cranked up amp. Two distinct and very different sounds. To me the preamp-driven units have kind of a Mesa vibe, with a cascading-gain effect, some noise reduction, and very mild compression.

The "target" sound that hasn't been hit in a pedal designed to be used with larger amps at lower volume is the sound of a cranked-up power section, with emulated transformer saturation - but a LOW gain sound (think a '55 wide-panel Deluxe - the 5D3 with 12AY7 preamp tube - turned up to 8 with the unused channel at 6 or so, the controls being interactive). The key thing is the "push" has to come (or seem to come) from the power amplifier, with the preamp providing a relatively clean signal to the power amp, which then would either be feeding a cranked, saturated cathode-biased power section, or a cranked, saturated hot-biased "fixed bias" power section.

Oversimplified, but generally speaking this has been the "holy grail" of pedals on the Tele and Fender Forums. Also would be a dream for steel - even "clean" steel could be warmed up at low volumes playing through high-powered amps; tube or solid-state.

The front end gain-type has been solved in a variety of ways; tube preamps (like David mentioned), the ubiquitous TS-types, the clean-boosts with the Klon still king of the hill (all slight takes on the TS, but more controllable at the cleaner end) and various two-stage blends of various types.

Unfortunately I'm no wiz at solid-state design or I'd mess with it myself!

Jim, I agree. I've never been able to achieve that honest "pushed" amp sound with any pedal. That's why I've grown to using lower and lower powered tube amps, so I actually can push the amp to get a tone. Lately it's been a 5 watt mid-70's Fender Champ with a 10" speaker in it. If that's not quite loud enough then the 12 watt Princeton Reverb will usually do it. If it's just a plain old loud gig, then I've gotta resort to the '68 Deluxe Reverb. The Blues Jr. also does well in this area.

But I always liked what pedals did going into an amp that's also being driven kind of hard, or at least at the edge of clean. I've got 3 places on my pedalboard just for dirty pedals. Lots of pedals rotate thru there, but generally there's gonna be something in the tubescreamer family, something in the fuzz family, and then something other for variety's sake. Sometimes a lot of transistory overtones from a pedal seem to really light up a tube amp and give it some added sparkle and presence.

David, I messed with that Duncan twin tube pedal at the store, and it seriously sounded great. In fact, I think from what I heard that it's probably in a class above the more commonly known tube pedals like the Blue Tube or Chandler. So thumbs up on that one for sure.

How many of you are familiar with the Zendrive pedal? I recently put my name on the 18 month waiting list for one. Now of all the pedals out there, this one sure seems to be the most "holy grail" of the bunch. Lots of demand, lots of serious players swear by it. I've heard some audio bites of one, and it really sounded great. Very natural and expressive, really just kind of perfect. He apparently covers his circuit board in black epoxy goop to hide the mojo.

Keith, I look forward to your new device. Sounds very cool from your descripton. I really like that it's steel friendly in how it hooks up. Maybe we could swap??? Did you come up with a name for it yet? I know you were brainstorming a while back.

Brad

Absolutely love my Zen Drive . I also really like the Keeley modded Sparkle Drive a lot, too...

That's why I've grown to using lower and lower powered tube amps, so I actually can push the amp to get a tone.

That was my 6-string method for years. Champs, Princetons, Deluxes, VIbroverb, Pro Reverb - some tweeds, some BF, some SF...but always the lowest-powered one I could get away with to enable the amp to "breathe". My personal "bad tone" prototype is a Strat through a Twin Reverb turned up to "2" in a tiny club.

The Marshall Bluesbreaker pedal is great , especially for the price. Overdrive and clean boost modes.About70 bucks.

No mention here of the Nobels ODR-1? OK, I'll mention it. I discovered this pedal in Nashville. It seems to be one of the most regarded secret-weapon overdrive pedals in that town. It's an interesting pedal. It doesn't sound like a Tubescreamer, but it's in that family. The tone or "spectrum" knob on it is a very cool single-knob EQ control. When you go below 12:00 with that knob, it's like a normal treble cut tone control. But when you pass 12:00 it starts to boost the mid-bass and the treble giving a big, amp-ish sound. Very good pedal for dirt cheap (by today's standards). Nobels is a German company who makes their stuff in Korea. Inside they've got the good opamp, and pretty much all good film cap's. It's one of my favorite mild-overdrive pedals.

http://www.adirondackguitar.com/effects/nobel/odr_1.htm

Brad

Brad Sarno wrote: I hope to have these things going by mid/late july. I don't have a price on them yet either as we are still doing a cost analysis. But I'll be sure to let y'all know as soon as I do.

Brad

May I respectfully request the power connector at the top of the pedal like a Boss instead of on the side? It makes routing a tightly-packed pedal board just a little easier. That said, I'm really looking forward to this pedal. I never gig without my SGBB. I have a pedal that doesn't work exactly as it should (old MXR envelope filter) when placed after the SGBB, but it sounds good. If I place it before, the knobs do what they are supposed to do but it sounds thinner and raspier. Guess which side it stays on?

Al

Al,

I considered different placements of the power jack. After taking lots of things into consideration, we decided to go with the left side. That seems to be a very popular spot on many newer boutique pedals. I think is sensible since there's already a guitar jack coming out of that side, that space is going to get used anyway. Also, the space that they take up on the side is just about the right amount of space that you need between small pedals so they aren't too crowded.

When the dc power jacks come out the top like a Boss, you actually lose quite a bit of space above the pedal. In a pedalboard, that can make or break the pedal's ability to fit on the board and let the lid or any pedals above it clear it. Also, now with these daisy chain mulit dc power jack cords, you can get them with real short right-angle dc plugs so they don't stick out too far at all. I think One-Spot is the brand. Placing that dc jack on the pedal was actually one of the more difficult decisions to make. But either way, it's too late now. The boards and chassis are already off for fabrication. I do appreciate the input.

Thanks,
Brad

Brad may I suggest that you change the name ..

From the picture it looks like is says..

DIRT BOY

I was disappointed when I found out it said Dirt Box

DIRT BOY really speaks volumes....at least to me..

uhmm..I wonder why ?



tp

Not an overdrive pedal as such, but I've known people to use an attenuator such as a THD Hotplate in between amp and speaker if they like the sound of their overdriven amp but don't necessarily want the associated volume.

Hi Everyone,
Many thanks for all the information which has helped me choose a pedal.
I finally decided on the one which I gave the link to in an earlier post,Namely the DVA VT 1.
It arrived a couple of hours ago and I gave it a try on the Strat to the Fender Blues junior and then to the Nashville 112.
There is an obvious diffetence between the valve amp and the tranny but this pedal sounds really good,it is possible even for my limitations to get that tone where break up is just beginning and with a bit of pick attack and pinched harmonics the unit starts to speak.
I have still to give it a blast at gig levels but I am confident I will be happy with what I have got.
Thanks again to everyone.
Best regards
Billy

I have noticed that many of the Boss Tone circuit diagrams have parts with different values, and different components. The biggest differences are in the capacitors, and transistors on the different circuit diagrams. I have an original Boss Tone and the capacitors and transistors are totally different than any of the circuit diagrams I have seen on the web or anywhere else. Maybe this is why some people dislike the sound of the Boss Tone and some people like the sound of the Boss Tone. It could be they played through different versions of the Boss Tone.

Brad--

Wow, Dave Shapiro and I each bought one of the Nobels after your post--what a great pedal! It has a certain "bigness" to it that I don't find in many others--thanks for the tip ...

ooops...

I forgot to mention the ODR-1 as well. I don't think it's a low-volume "dirt box" that may are looking for, but it's a much better sound than the typical TS clones with a driven amp.

I know this is a long shot, but has anyone tried the Sub-Decay Liquid Sunshine Overdrive? How about the Austone Millenium Overdrive? These both appear to have original, non-cloned designs.

I'm also looking forward to hearing Brad's new Dirt Box later this summer.

I've got a bunch of various overdrive pedals. The Radial ToneBone Classic is very friendly.
Then, in my pedal board I have:

The COB is from Prescription Electronics, and is my favorite. The DriveOmatic was made by Stamps
and the box on the bottom right is a Glitch Computer, which is something you probably aren't going to want.

Yeah John, that Nobels ODR-1 is a very big and fat sounding box. I think that may be why so many Tele pickers like it. It makes a single coil bridge pickup very full and big sounding. Great pedal and very cheap to buy.

I have to add my latest addition to the list. I just got my long-awaited AnalogMan King Of Tone 4 pedal. This thing is an amazing light-overdrive pedal. Actually it's two pedals in one. It won't get real dirty or hairy, but it will create a very clear and absurdly natural sounding overdrive sound. (well, actually you can switch a DIP switch inside to get a more dirty mode, but it's not what he recommends) The sound is very tight and clear. Jim Weider helped Analog Mike develop this pedal. The wait on this baby is about 2 years. Here's a link:

http://www.analogman.com/kingtone.htm



It seems that the King of Tone 4 and the Hermida ZenDrive pedals are perhaps the most desired drive pedals out there, at least the long wait time would indicate that. I'm on the waiting list for a Zendrive. I can't decide if I want the Zendrive 2 with the tube in it, or just the normal Zendrive. I know they're very similar. Randy Beavers said he should be getting his Zendrive 2 very soon. Hopefully he can chime in. The wait on the Zendrive is also very long. Hopefully before we elect our next president, I'll have my hands on one. John, you wanna bring your Zendrive to St. Louis for me to play around with????

Brad