The Steel Guitar Forum

<SMALL>Sorry Brad..those are NOT steel guitar players on your web site..</SMALL>

Then,- what would you call Sol Hoopi'i?
I always thought the original definition of "steel guitar" was sliding a steel object along steel strings; Steel on steel to create melodies,- "steel guitar".
Listen to Bhatt or Debashish and you'll hear musicianship on a level the rest of us can only dream of,- and it's all performed on acoustic steel guitar.

Or do you mean it has to be pedal steel and country music to be called "steel guitar"?

Steinar



------------------
www.gregertsen.com

Bob..i will answer your question..then consider this foolishness over..sir, if you think all there is to being a steel guitar player, is a guitar with a raised nut, or steel strings, and a slide..i have some lake front property in Arizona, that i just know is right for you!..according to your definition, my Grandmother was a steel guitar player... it has to do with feeling, style,approach,technique,love,dedication
now i'm not saying those india indians don't have the same qualities...perhaps they do. However....i can teach a parrot to talk to. There are no india steel guitar instrumentals that i am aware of..that would come close to the things that Jerry recorded, or Emmons, or any steel guitar player..it is such a combination of things that make a steel guitar player..just because they seem to want to copy yet ANOTHER American culture..does not make them steel guitarist..sorry..i don't buy it..i could make Curry..but i'm not a chef that can cook india food...sorry...in fact..i kinda find this whole subject repulsive, and an insult...b0b...you can close this mess anytime..it would be ok with me....

<SMALL>Isn't it possible for the same instrument or anything for that matter to have more than one origin? </SMALL>

yes!

- ever read about the 100 monkeys experiments? Basically new behaviors in one island population of monkeys, simultaneuosly start to be exhibited by a completely separate population on a completely different island without contact.
(or something to that effect)

- why was calculus invented by more than one person, at about the same time, and at a particular point in time??

- what is intuition and insight - what critical mass of information needs to exist before like minds see identical solutions?

I'm sure steel-guitar-like playing (sliding things on strings) simultaneously arose in many cultures - not a doubt in my mind. How many ways can you make pleasing noises with plants, wood, skin, gut, rocks and sticks? You create drums, flutes, bows, hammers, gourdes, whistles, ....and eventually guitars, volins, ukes,...?

Hip Hop artists making a turntable into an instrument (lateral thinking), is the same as some old guy taking a bow (for arrows) and sliding something on it to make noise. It's repurposing, enhancing.

My stand is, I believe tracing the origin and history for steel to Joeseph K. and Hawaii is most correct - because that to me is clearly the most influential example of repurposing an instrument for this type of playing style. Influential in the fact that it spawned widespread immitation in the early 1900's in the US, and other forms of the same instrument.

I don't hear much vichitra veena in Tin Pan Alley, or early country music - but it could have been if India musicians had been as hip as the Hawaiians

------------------
Chris Kennison
Ft. Collins, Colorado
"Listen Sooner" www.book-em-danno.com www.seldomfed.com


<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by seldomfed on 02 June 2005 at 12:43 PM.]</p></FONT>

<SMALL>..just because they seem to want to copy yet ANOTHER American culture..does not make them steel guitarist..</SMALL>

I see,- you've never really listened to any of these guys, have you?
Nothing "American" about them, this is Indian classical music that goes back a long long time.

------------------
www.gregertsen.com

George,
Indian musicians have adapted the steel guitar to their (considerably more ancient) musical culture, much like other Western instruments such as the mandolin, harmonium, etc.
I believe the musical abilities of Indian steel guitarists such as Debashish Bhattacharya are equal to those of Jerry Douglas, Buddy Emmons, etc. but in a different musical genre. I refuse to get into a discussion of who is better, because I don't play that game.
You might ask Jerry Douglas what he thinks of his collaboration with Indian steel guitarist V.M. Bhatt on their CD Bourbon & Rosewater.
I'd be happy to send you some examples of Indian steel guitar instrumentals. Please contact me off list.

------------------
Brad's Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars

<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Brad Bechtel on 02 June 2005 at 01:29 PM.]</p></FONT><font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Brad Bechtel on 02 June 2005 at 01:30 PM.]</p></FONT>

..just because they seem to want to copy yet ANOTHER American culture..does not make them steel guitarist..

I might be mistaken, but I don't think Hawaiians would consider Hawaiian steel guitar to be an ANOTHER American culture. After all, it was invented before Hawaii was stolen, I mean became a US territory.

George, you list your interests as: Home Recording, Steel Guitar, Jammin' with Close Friends, Old Steel Guitar Instrumentals.

I'm tempted to add "uninformed put downs of other cultures" but I'll join the other voices and point out that Indian musical tradition is 2000 + years old. Hawaiian musical culture is NOT American. It is a Pacific Rim culture. The steel guitar came to America FROM Hawaii after the US rather rudely appropriated their real estate.
Not only are there many Indian steel guitarists, but a few have taken technique far beyond anything Jerry ever imagined. It's pointless to compare as each culture's tradition is valid but I'd advise you to do some much needed reading before you spout off uninformed opinion as fact in a public forum.

I am not saying that ANYTHING i stated as being 100% authority sir..as i'm sure you aren't either..and my good friend, i know more about the 5000 year old nation of india, it's people, customs and culture sir, then you could begin to know..but it's pointless to even go into that..i DID not "Spout" anything as being fact, simply my view, sorry if it does not agree with yours...And my Forum Brother..i will correct you... india's musical culture is 5000 years old, and misinformed?....i Quote."Hawaiian musical culture is NOT American"...nowhere in ANY of my replys, did i mention the word "Hawaiian"....I respectfully stand by my views!<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by George Redmon on 02 June 2005 at 06:12 PM.]</p></FONT>

Well, I suppose I reacted to the subtext vs what you actually said. Sorry. My response was crankier than necessary. You certainly have a right to your opinion ... however wrong. <font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Andy Volk on 03 June 2005 at 02:52 AM.]</p></FONT>

I'm for parallel convergent evolution.

I know for a certainty that I invented the steel guitar.
I was walking by the trash behind a music store in Tulsa, and discovered a Fender Kingman in two pieces; took it home and put a nut riser on it, and a baby humbucker; got my Craftsman plug socket, just like Lowell George, and began to play.

Course, I wondered how some guy could have anticipated my need for the nut riser contraption....
There must have been a hundred other monkeys out there....

There is the North Indian vichittra veena but there is also the South Indian gottuvadhyam which is one of the richest sounds I have ever heard in my life when it comes to the overtones it produces. You really owe it to yourselves to listen to this stuff, some of it is amazing.

As far as Indian steel guitar goes anyone who hasn't heard Vishwa Mohan Bhatt has no clue.

------------------
If you can't hear the others you're too loud, if you can't hear yourself you've gone deaf

ah yes and

A Meeting by the River ~ Ry Cooder & V.M. Bhatt

very cool - I play hindustani slide albums on my radio show quite often - it's wonderful.



------------------
Chris Kennison
Ft. Collins, Colorado
"Listen Sooner"
www.book-em-danno.com
www.seldomfed.com

Meeting By The River was nice but it's not "the one". Never, ever has Ry sounded so shallow or so pale as he does next to this Indian monster. He has said it himself in interviews, that it was like being dragged around by a very fast horse and that Bhatt very clearly stepped down to Ry's level.

Now, before I say anything more disrespectful about Ry here I should perhaps add that if it was me on the recording it would all sound so bad that it would never have been released, but that's another thing.

There is a depth in Bhatt's tone that no American, or European for that matter, nobody from a first world country, possibly nobody outisde of India, will ever come close to. And if you go to Rajasthan, where Bhatt is from, you'll start to understand why.

------------------
If you can't hear the others you're too loud, if you can't hear yourself you've gone deaf

Hey Bruce, don't you think you're overreacting a bit? I didn't fully read either post - I just saw the picture of an instrument that didn't have pedals. A discussion of that instrument clearly doesn't belong in the "Pedal Steel" section of the Forum.

I never claimed to be consistant. In fact, all of my decisions are quite arbitrary. If I recall correctly, though, the other post was discussing the similarity between a harp (which has pedals) and a pedal steel, which may be why it didn't trigger the arbitrary move switch.

------------------
<img align=left src="http://b0b.com/b0bxicon.gif" border="0"><small> Bobby Lee</small>
-b0b- <small> quasar@b0b.com </small>
System Administrator <span style="text-align: right; font-size: 0.75em; font-variant: small-caps">
My Blog</span>

This just in... Martians discover name "Jeff Au Hoy" and laugh histerically... not considered a real name in their culture but rather an insult meaning "Ear of Feces".

Double rimshot for Jeff!!

Whadda yah tryin' to do, put Howard out of work?

And here I thought "Jeff, Ahoy" was what HowardR yelled from his ship when discovered the lovely Hawaiian Islands, prior to his founding of the first Steel Guitar Tree Plantation on the island of Waikiki.
(Rhythm of the Islands...whether it's Manhattan, Waikiki, or Staten...).<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Patrick Newbery on 03 June 2005 at 02:08 PM.]</p></FONT>

Bob, no ways. Howard is a real wit. I'm only half way there.

Don't know why we have to be so compartmentalized. Steel Guitar is steel guitar. I have both pedals and non pedal steels. Pedals allow you to make a pitch higher or lower and forward or reverse bar slants do the same thing. Certainly, the pedals and levers theoretically allow much more latitude here, but it's still basically the same thing.

If you see Buddy Emmons or Herb Remington use slants on their pedal guitars (which both do), are they playing pedal or non-pedal?

I guess if we wanted to post sound clips, we would have to put the part with slants on "No Pedalers" and the rest on "pedal steel"

Who cares where there's overlap?? It's all steel guitar!!!

I play an overlap myself....

Bill B. - I won't try to speak for b0b, but there is a very good technical reason for keeping threads properly categorized. That is to make the forum Search function works properly.

Previous technical threads reveal that it's not possible to search the entire forum, it needs to be done by category. If you do a search of the 'Feedback' area for "forum search", you'll find out why.

So, if a thread on lap steel history is in the pedal steel section, when someone logically searches "No Peddlers", it will not come up. This forum is not only an active discussion, but the finest archive on steel guitar in existence, by far. They're just trying to keep this archive navigable, as has been explained many times elsewhere. Information is useless if nobody can find it.

As to the reasons for splitting pedal steel vs. non-pedal steel, I think this also makes perfect sense. Although there are obvious similarities - they are all steel guitars - these two musical cultures, traditions, and associated technical issues are really quite different, IMO. Both pedal and non-pedal have distinct subcultures of their own, to be sure, but further splitting of topics would lead to an unreasonable number of distinct topics, IMO. It's a technical website design issue. As usual, b0b has navigated the narrow precipice with precision.

I also ditto previous comments about civility, the sine qua non of any public forum. Real freedom of expression relies on the recognition of others' freedom to do the same. The more controversial the topic, the more the need for restraint.

My own opinion is that this type of 'origin of an instrument' or 'origin of a particular type of music' is often more political than musical. History is a very difficult subject. IMO, the people who have the information to shed real light are often either dead or politically motivated. The 'facts' are very hard to ascertain on a cold trail. Did Joseph Kekuku get his ideas from messing around with a Portugese guitar and a bolt by accident, or did he witness someone from further east? Who ya' gonna' call for the answer to that? Parallel development? Maybe. Unless something remarkable happens, we'll probably never know any of this definitively.

On the 'guitar vs. harp' issue, who cares? It's just a name. Call it a harp if you like, but I'm gonna call it a guitar. One thing for sure - those Indian guys playing that thing with steel strings on their lap with steel bars - if they aren't 'steel players', I dunno who is. They're smokin', even if they don't play any country shuffles.

Just MHO, go ahead, flame away.

wait...what?

Jeff, who says you're only halfway there? Another rimshot (pretty good setup, though, don't you think?)

I had always imagined you as much younger, Jeff.

I think we've exhausted this topic, so I'm closing it. Feel free to start up a new thread if you have anything to contribute.

------------------
Brad's Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars