The Steel Guitar Forum

Hi Bob, I do not know the correct terminology but I can say that i tune my guitar so that the chords are "beatless"

Which tune by the Beatless?

I tune based on a trick that Reece Anderson taught me: I tune the roots and 5ths to 442 and the 3rds to 440. Always sounds good and sounds in tune when i play with others.

Years ago when our Bass player pulled the “fretless” out of his case I would feel my sphincter tighten slightly, because I just knew we were in for a rough ride tonight, and that there would be something ever so slightly rotten in the band’s sound… but man, that dude loved his fretless P-bass and you could see his eyes glaze over with pride whenever he spoke about it… NO ONE in the band had the heart to tell him he had no sense of pitch.
I’ve just sat here this afternoon in my little studio playing along with a piece I am struggling to learn, and I have only succeeded in making a series of wheezing, howling, and generally unmusical noises!
To be fair to myself I am still fairly new to the PSG, but I can’t help but think it is Karma for all the unkind thoughts I had about our Bassist with that fretless P-Bass all those years ago.
So feeling slightly depressed I put the horn aside and came here to maybe read something that would inspire me.
And… I stumble across this thread… man, I tune straight up… my problem isn’t my tuner. I need to be able to place the bar correctly, and hit the darn strings my fingers are aiming at, whilst trying to read the chart.
You folks must be VERY advanced to even be talking about this stuff… I get quietly emotional when I play something that sounds remotely within the semi-tone I am aiming at…. trust me no one is ever gonna fault me on my tuning with their fingers stuck in their ears! You need a room emptied? I’m yer man… weddings, Bah-Mitzvahs, and evictions? call 1800-tonedeaf.

E at 440. 3rds a little flat. Tune the A to 440. I play a universal so I am constantly tweaking with it. My chromatics up on top 1 and 2 I tune them to the B string . Tuning the universal is tougher than playing one.

ET unless there's an acoustic piano being used - then everyone is screwed!



With zero cabinet drop guitars and my "abnormal" B6 copedents, ET seems to work best for me, especially with a band.

On the Whitney's I tune straight-up 440 on everything as the cabinets don't drop. On the others, I check the 4th string for drop when I push the splits and tune all the raises accordingly. That's usually 438 or so. I leave the lowers at 440 as they relieve tension on the cabinet and can bump the E up to 441. Most human hearing doesn't detect 1-1/2 or 2 cents anyhow.
PRR

Jeff, tuning the beats out is called Just Intonation (JI). Everything else is a "tempering" of JI. There is Equal Temper (ET), Mean Temper, Well Temper, and some others. The Newman tuning was probably beatless on the guitar it was developed on; although Jeff may have used some compromises that weren't beatless. But on any other instrument, beats may be introduced by the different amount of cabinet drop, etc.

To answer Ben's question about whether players of other instruments debate tuning, this was debated centuries ago concering the classical music instruments (fretless strings, horns, keyboards). They developed certain work arounds. Violins and Violas are tuned in 5ths. The 5th interval is essentially the same for JI and ET. Basses are tuned in 4ths, and again there is no conflict between JI and ET. I'm not sure about cellos, but either way the problem is eliminated on the open strings. The big conflict between JI and ET comes with 3rds, 6ths and 7ths. The orchestral strings simply don't have any of those intervals on their open strings. That is no accident. Being fretless, the orchestral strings are free to play 3rds, 6ths and 7ths to JI or ET or anywhere in between. If an open string happens to be the 3rd, 6th or 7th of a chord, they are free to play that on another string where it can be fretted with any intonation they want. That also allows them to use vibrato. Advanced string players do discuss when to use an open string and when not to.

With the exception of double reeds (oboes, English horns, bassons), horns use their lips to intonate any way they want on every note - they have no equivalent of fixed pitch open strings. They simply play each note by ear. The keys and valves are centered on ET. The double reeds have less control over the pitch, and I believe it ends up being closer to ET.

Long ago, keyboards were tuned to certain keys. As harmony got more complicated, and multiple keys came into use, the various tempered tunings were developed. Also, early keyboards had little volume and sustain, so the beats caused by clashing overtones were less pronounced. The volume and sustain of the pianoforte pretty well made it mandatory to use ET, and ET became synonomous with piano tone. In early orchestras, keyboards were used as a sort of rhythm instrument, comping along similar to the way acoustic guitars did in early jazz bands. Early keyboards had so little sustain, that their overtones were not a problem. The volume and sustain of the piano changed that. Keyboards were dropped as a regular instrument of the orchestra. Now they are only used for special pieces, such as piano concertos. Somehow everyone makes these pieces work. But the problem is well recognized by conductors and composers.

Harps, glockenspiels, etc. are tuned ET of course. But they have so little sustain that the overtones are not around long enough to cause a serious problem when played in orchestras.

I don't know the ancient history, but supposedly the Greeks, ancient Chinese and other ancient cultures knew something about different tuning systems.

There is plenty of guitar literature discussing the need to tune ET. That's what all those handheld electronic tuning meters are made for. Nevertheless, whether they know what they are doing or not, plenty of guitar players will sweeten up the tonic chord, and will tweak between songs in different keys in order to do so. I think there is a lot of confusion about that. While some players know about ET and JI, I think others just think when they tuned to the meter they didn't get it exactly right, and when they play a chord they can hear it and "correct" it. This can sort of work on songs with a few simple chords. I'm not advocating this - just saying it happens.

The steel guitar is unique. Our tunings are based on full chords, not just 4ths and 5ths. Almost all steel tunings have 3rds, and many have 6ths and 7ths. But unlike keyboards, if we tune a full chord JI, we can use the bar to move that to any fret and so keep the intervals JI. Also, the pedal and lever stops allow the same string to be tuned for different intervals. Thus, a pedal steel can tune a whole bunch of chords JI with no conflicts. But if your tuning and copedant get complicated enough, you can run into problems that only ET will fix. Even with complicated copedants, a lot of steelers apparently like to keep their commonly used pure chords close to JI. The more complicated chords that cause the problems tend to be dissonant chords anyway, so the conflicts may not be so noticeable, and may not be much worse than what you get with ET.

So the answer to Ben's question is that, yes, other insturments have faced the tuning problem and developed their own solutions. But steel guitar, has a unique set of problems and solutions. A lot of steelers are self-taught, and don't have a lot of formal knowledge of the history and theory of tuning. It is a relatively new instrument, and we are still working out the kinks. For most other instruments it was all worked out long ago, so it's not so much an issue. Old school steelers didn't have chromatic tuners, and so worked out their tuning methods by ear. The standard E9 pedal steel copedant is remarkably free from tuning conflicts. That is not exactly an accident. It evolved so it could be tuned acceptably by ear.

When I was in high school band in the early '60s, our director got an electronic chromatic tuner. It cost a fortune, and was the size and weight of an amp head. It was on a wheeled stand. He would have us play solo into it, and watch the spinning wheels to learn to control our intonation. I'm thinking not many honky-tonk steelers were ever confronted with such a thing. I guess in the '80s and '90s, inexpensive handheld electronic chromatic tuners became available, and the whole JI/ET problem reared its head. It is an age-old problem, but it affects our instrument in unique ways. Even the top pros do not agree yet on the best way to deal with the problem. That's why we have this on-going debate. It's not exactly rocket science. But it is not exactly simple either. I know some people get irritated by these long discussions. But I think they are inevitable, and man have I learned a lot. I still tune slide guitar and steel by ear, the same way I taught myself in the '60s. But If I can't hear, I know how to take a meter, and sometimes go with what it says, and sometimes choose something a little different. And I now have a much better understanding of what I am doing and why.

Dave, it has never been put forth better!! Great explanation!! I first learned of the 'conflict' from a hammered dulcimer player, Rick Fogel, while on vacation in St.Augustine FL in 1982. At the time he had published a small book that may still be available regarding this subject and the math involved. . .more specifically, the Pythagorean Theorem. The square of the tonic added to the square of the fifth equals the square of the third in the next higher octave. As you say, when the note or chord is struck and decays rapidly, beats aren't much of an issue. But when you add a super-sustaining instrument like the steel with a volume pedal that is capable of dragging out notes or chords for an extended period of time, intonation can cause the neighbor's dog to get dizzy. Add into the mix the ever-present 'cabinet drop' issue, and you could have a real mess on your hands. That's why I tune each of my guitars differently. My old BMI D-11 is about as sweet sounding a guitar as I've ever heard, but it does have drop issues. I have found that Jeff's tuning came very close to eliminating the dissonance save for his radical 'low' setting for the E to F raise. If I used that same set of criteria on my Whitney's, the band members would be waiting for me with Louisville Sluggers in the parking lot after the gig!! I try to teach others to watch what happens to their 4th E string when they use their 'splits'. Adjust your raises and lowers accordingly. That's at the very least a good starting point. Every guitar is different, has a different amount of drop, and therefore should be tuned individually. There is NOT a one-size-fits-all tuning for the pedal steel and, face it, folks, there never will be. There are simply way too many variables involved. Again, thanks, Dave, for a great explanation.
You aced it!!
PRR

I use a reference and tune by ear.

Anyone noticed that ET can also mean
"even tempered"
Lately, some of the more senior members are beginning to just exhibit that trait and be much more amicable.
TBG
Baz

I think Earnest Bovine's guitar is mean tempered, but I haven't played it. There may be a comma missing in my statement....

David, that was indeed the best treatise I've read here on tunings.
I imagine Greeks used JI, as it's based on the Phytagorean tuning.

How do I tune? I use those 20 little thingys that stick up on the left end of my guitar..........Actually I get and E reference from a 6 string guitar tuner and the rest by ear. Have yet to be accused of being out of tune.

Jeff Bradshaw wrote:Hi Bob, I do not know the correct terminology but I can say that i tune my guitar so that the chords are "beatless"...what terminology should I use to describe "beatless"? Best regards. ..jeff

Edited to add:
Also..Newman's Just Intonation Chart is not "beatless" to my ear...

Just intonation is the technical term for "beatless" tuning. Jeff's chart was intended to be beatless, but the physical differences from one guitar to the next make it an approximation. It's the same with the Peterson tuner. These methods are close to JI, but not quite there for all guitars.

I heard Jeff had Llyod Green tune his guitar one day by ear.He then put a strobe on Llyod's guitar and thus his degrees of tuning became a popular thing.I think it is the same tuning programed in the Peterson tuner.I checked the 4th string,
E9th and it read 442.5.Llyod always tunes be his ear I understand.Maybe someone could ask Llyod, I bet he would share how he tunes with us.Jeff said Llyod had te best ear for tuning..
Ray

Thanks Dave & Bob, I guess that I will now call my tuning method "Just Intonation"..Best regards. ..jeff

I tune the open strings to an instrument that is not tunable, such as a glockenspiel or xylophone.

Newman chart with Peterson VS-1 at 440. I tune the E's to 0 with A, and B depressed, but actual cabinet drop is only about a cent, and a half.

John

Yes, Ray, you have the story about right; and it is good to get this story in this thread, which seems destined to be a classic. There was a thread about this a few months back. According to several sources, including Lloyd in personal emails to myself and others, Jeff Newman asked Lloyd to tune a 10-string E9 (not sure if it was Lloyd's or Jeff's guitar). Lloyd took an E from a pitch pipe and tuned the guitar by ear, as is his custom. When Lloyd was satisfied it was satisfactorily in tune, Jeff checked it with a chromatic meter and recorded the results. Jeff said he had done the same thing himself and gotten similar results. It was not clear to me if Jeff's chart was exactly what Lloyd got, or was some combination of that and Jeff's own tuning.

The intervals in the Newman tuning chart are very close to pure JI, with some compromises here and there. There are two versions of the Newman chart. One pegs the Es at a 440 reference, the other at 441. The cabinet drop of the guitar is factored into the chart. It seems to be fairly typical, but different guitars will vary in that aspect.

Also, before taking that chart as gospel to the tenth of a Herz, it is well to consider what happens if the same person repeatedly tunes the same guitar. Most of us will not get exactly the same pitches on every string and stop every time we tune. A lifelong pro like Lloyd will come much closer each time than a hacker like myself. But I suspect even Lloyd (or anyone else) will vary by a cent or two each time here and there (in the story, Lloyd was anticipating dinner). Ideally, one would have him tune the guitar several times, and take the average. So I would take those 0.1 Hz listings in the chart with a grain of salt, and would not be afraid to round them to something easier to remember. There is a general rule of thumb that differences of less than 5 cents (1.25 Hz) are not noticeable in playing music. So I would think rounding to within 1 Hz of the chart would be acceptable.

Ken Williams wrote:On E9th, I tune the Es to about 441, pedal up. On the 3rd harmonies like the G# open and 5th and 10th string pulls, I don't tune the beats out. I tune somewhere between "beats out" and straight up, probably closer to straight up. ...
This method works ok for me and you can easily tune by ear in the middle of bar fight. When I tune, I'm not listening to the pitch of the notes, only the beats and beat rates.

I'm not sure which catagory in the poll I would fit in.

Ken

The first option - get a reference note and tune by ear.

Thanks bOb. I've cast my vote for the catagory you mentioned.

Ken

By ear, with an E (456?) fork, when I can hear, like in a studio. Otherwise, JI using a Korg DTR1.

I start with a tempered chart but more and more I fine tune it by ear. I'm Kind of in a transition and trying to find what I like best.

The problem is the better my ear gets at hearing "in tune" steel the more discouraged I get as I feel i'm never in tune.
Some times I want to unlearn, untrain my ears.

Now I try to just tune up good, then play without thinking about playing in tune. I have more fun playing and I actually play more in tune and with a better feel that way.

equal temper @441 , but then some ear tweaking.. I suppose I could start with a 441 E on the 8th string but it's hard to check tuning during a set by ear....

I tune to the singer

Ola B0b
Peterson V-Sam is
Muey Bueno por me