circle of 5ths

[Ben Jones]

I made myself some flash cards. Key on one side, I, IV, V and relative minor on the other. Havent used em yet tho...

[John Fabian]

Hey b0b,

Now you know why we keep asking for a spell checker.

Try forwArds and backwArds. Or for'd 'n' backerd.

[b0b]

It's an uneducated man who only knows one way to spell a word.

[Bryan Daste]

Here's an interesting-looking "chord wheel" (Circle of Fifths) book - I have not used it...
Click here

[Jeff Lampert]

Any one who has stayed on the same fret while improvising through a I,IV,V progreesion can appreciate the importance of the circle of 5ths. Basically it shows that the scales on either side of a selected note/scale are very closely related. So much so in fact that even if you don't change frets, a lot of what you would play will sound good over any of those thre chords. For example, play a song in the key of C with a C,F,G7,C progression. Stay on the 8th fret. You don't even have to pedal. Notice how it sounds decent even as the song changes, no matter which notes you play. If the song were to suddenly go to an Eb chord, it wouldn't be so good. That's because the Eb chord is considerably more removed from the C chord in the 5th's chart.

[Calvin Walley]

FIRST AND FORMOST , I WANT TO THANK EACH AND EVERYONE OF YOU.
this is what makes the forum so great i read every post and everyone had great input and has helped make it a little clearer
Mike, i 'm gonna see to it that you get your 87 cents
its not the first time i have tackled this but maybe with all of your help i can get this in my head this time .
each of you had a little to add that is helping me make sense of it

again many thanks

calvin

[Dave Mudgett]

I really like the www.musictheory.net site - thanks Bryan D. The "Lessons" flash videos are very well done, and also have audio musical examples embedded - very nice. His "Circle Progressions" flash video is very clear, and gives both major and minor scale examples, complete with audio.

But what really sells me are the "Trainers" flash videos. They're basically a random flash-card system, and range from reading trainers (individual notes, key signatures, intervals, and triads) to ear trainers (intervals, scales, and chords) to note identification for specific instruments (piano, guitar, and brass). Keeps track of how you're doing - I think this is great for someone working on their own.

An awful lot of guitar players can't just look at the neck and name each note. I'll bet it's the same for steel - I know I can't do this yet on steel, and I can still use to sharpen that skill on guitar. But I can't think of any remotely serious keyboard player who can't do that on their instrument. Of course, doing this on guitar and steel is more complex. But I think I need to redouble my efforts along this line - I consider it a real limitation to not be able to just look at the neck and name each non-pedaled note.

[Rick Schmidt]

Here's another way to look at it that was big for me in my jazz guitar days. http://www.lydianchromaticconcept.com/faq.html
From the surface it looks like rocket science, but if you just read the theoretical foundation (a page and a half in the middle of the book), it's actually it's more like zen. All based on the cycle of fifths. Very enlightening for me at the time. Eureka! Tonal gravity!

BTW....over the years, I've know alot of brilliant country pickers who didn't really know alot of conventional music theory, but they all understood the cycle of 5ths. Some of them even more than the jazz guys.

"...Medium shuffle boys....Way to Survive....fifty five eleven intro....(holding two fingers up=key of D=2 sharps) Play a diminished and you're finished.....Hit it....1, 2, 1-2-etc-etc."

[Charlie McDonald]

Calvin, it seems to me that the circle of 5ths is a picture, like a color wheel or the depiction of 'five-phase' theory of Chinese medicine (I flunked that), showing that you end up where you started.
The only practical application I know of it is in piano tuning (C fork method) where you entone the chords: F, C, G, D, A, E, B, F#, C#, G#, D#(Eb), A#(Bb), F--up a 5th, down a 4th, up a 5th, etc, within a single octave. It makes a boring song.

B0b demonstrates it well, but note that to make it interesting, he has to change from I to VIM in order to begin the circle again.
If you take the circle as a picture of how it fits together, it may make some abstract sense.
We all use it, but I think it's somewhat unconscious, adapted to fit the music, rather than vice versa.

[David L. Donald]

I don't disagree with visualation methods,
but for me the best way to understand it,
is to play it untill you can do it
with out thinking about it.

While you play it visualize it on your instrument,
and in your head. Then it will make the most 'musical sense'.

[Ray Minich]

Wow, I went back and reread Tom Bradshaw's book last night (it was the 1977 edition), and even understood more of it this time, thanks to the discussion here.

I always thought the circle of fifths was all those two rows of bottles lined up against the backbar mirror at the local tavern...

Actually, figuring out that a fifth interval could occur between two notes and that a fifth interval could also occur between two chords and that these were two different occurences of the same thing would have come a lot sooner if I'd studied sooner...

[b0b]

B0b demonstrates it well, but note that to make it interesting, he has to change from I to VIM in order to begin the circle again.

Assuming you're referring to the "Round the Horn" clip ( http://soundhost.net/b0b/Horn.wav ) the progression doesn't go from I to VI anywhere. It's like this:
[tab] ... II V (end of previous verse)

I IV II V
III VI II V

I IV ... (beginning of next verse) [/tab]
The IV to II change and the V to III change are the ones that step out of the circle. The six chords starting at the III march through the circle backwards (sometimes called the circle of fourths).

[Charlie McDonald]

Ach. I see now. Thanks, b0b.

[Bill McCloskey]

The thing that has always made sense to me is to think of it not as a circle of 5ths (going up) but as a circle of fourths (going down).

I forget where I read it but what cleared it up for me was a passage I read that stated that a musical chord always wants to resolve down a 4th. A G chord wants to resolve to a C, a C chord wants to resolve to an F, etc. Which is why you see progressions moving the way they move.

Within this larger circle of 4ths, there is a smaller circle of 4ths also going on: within the key that you are in. So while a Major G wants to resolve down to a Major C, the diatonic chords in the key of C also want to resolve down a 4th. For instance, in the key of C, a D minor chord wants to resolve to a G7th chord. A G7th chord wants to resolve to a C Major chord. A C Major chord wants to resolve to an F chord, an F wants to resolve to a B diminished chord (there is no Bb in C major), etc. That is why a ii-V-I progression is so common in Jazz. It is just following the diatonic circle of 4ths.

Using this cycle, when composing or transcribing a chord progression is invaluable as you have a roadmap already of the way chords want to move and this helps you figure out where the possible chords will be going for a piece you don't know.

If the the piece has a A minor chord in the key of C, there is a good chance that the next chord might be a Dm or D. And if you are composing a tune with an A minor, you will know that a D minor will sound good as the next chord in the progression.

Better yet when you are improvising and the progression goes from the one chord to the 5 chord, you can swap in a ii chord along the way because it fits in the cycle. The same would hold true with any progession from one chord to another - knowing the cycle of 4ths provides fodder for chord substitutions in an solo.

[Darryl Hattenhauer]

A thousand thanks to all of you advanced players who give of your time to help us greenhorns.

[Bryan Daste]

Rick, the Lydian Chromatic Concept looks interesting, but totally unique as compared to conventional music theory. From reading the site it looks like they can work side-by-side. Why did you choose it? What did it do for you specifically?
Thanks,
Bryan

[Darryl Hattenhauer]

I don't play loud leads any more.

I Ionian,
D Dorian,
P Phrygian,
L Lydian,
L Locrian
A Aeolian
M Mixolydian,

[Rick Schmidt]

Darryl....are you sure about that?

I Don't Play Lydian Modes After Lyposuction

Ionian
Dorian
Phrygian
Lydian
Mixolydian
Aolian
Locrian

[Rick Schmidt]

Bryan....it's been many years and thousands of 1-4-5 country shuffles since I was a student of the Lydian Chromatic Concept, but it was the symetrical overview, and how it actually simplified the way I visualized harmony, that got my imagination going. Here's another link that explains alot about it. (scroll down half way)

http://davidvaldez.blogspot.com/2005/08 ... matic.html

Here's a forum (that looks very familiar BTW) for "The Concept"

http://www.lydianchromaticconcept.com/phpBB2/

I read somewhere that Paul Franklin was studying Mr. Russell's book about the same time I was in the 70's. I think he must've gotten more out of it than I did.

[David L. Donald]

Lydian oh Lydian
that encyclopidian
oh Lydian the tattoed lady.

[Darryl Hattenhauer]

Groucho was always phrygian around

[Bobby Lee]

I forget where I read it but what cleared it up for me was a passage I read that stated that a musical chord always wants to resolve down a 4th. A G chord wants to resolve to a C, a C chord wants to resolve to an F, etc. Which is why you see progressions moving the way they move.

Wouldn't that be up a 4th? F is a 4th above (or a 5th below) C.

[Bill McCloskey]

Hmm. I guess that is right. I think of it as a 4th since it is from the C to the F, because it is easier for me to think of it like that when going down.

So, let me rephrase: music wants to drop a 5th, not a 4th.

[Calvin Walley]

its taken some hard studying and a lot of good help here but the fog is lifting , i think that i am begining to understand this.
it does help make sense of the way music works

again many thanks to one and all and to Bob for creating the forum, he made getting help a lot easier

calvin

[Rick Schmidt]

Cool Calvin....as I tell my students, if musicians can figure it out, anybody can!