The Elements Of Tone!

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

Eric.....did you have to say the "T" word??? Now we'll never get back on topic!!!

Joe Miraglia · From: Jamestown N.Y.

Yes the hands- But the brain is what runs the whole show.Some poeple learn faster, I learn slower. And don't forget the feet and knees they play a roll when playing the pedal steel.Joe

Marc Mercer · From: Colorado, USA

What's being discussed here brings to my mind two different instrument analogies:

1) A Player Piano - although there are hammers striking strings, the resultant sound is robotic, which, of course, it is; even to untrained ears, what's distinctly lacking is the human element.

2) A Violin - In the hands of someone new to the instrument, the squeaks, squawks, scrapes and squeals can be painful to hear, but someone with knowledge, experience and a delicate touch can evoke beautiful, thought-provoking music from the very same instrument.

Many things produce sounds, but music requires emotion.

Reece Anderson · From: Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.

Beginning with number 1 on my left hand list. (amount of downward pressure)

First of all, wouldn't it be interesting were there to be a way to determine the exact weight of the downward pressure on the strings (including bar weight) while in the hands of a master!

When teaching I sometimes have the student slide the bar out of my hand so they can feel the weight resistance. This at least provides them some kind of downward pressure perspective.

This teaching technique is of course a variable because the bar weight can vary, however I have found the demonstration to be very helpful in their gaining a perspective.

Some may believe "just enough" downward pressure to eliminate bar rattle and make a clear tone is sufficient. That's certainly a good place to start experimenting and making determinations and possible adjustments just to see if it make a difference in the sound/tone.

I have done my best to analyze the weight of the downward pressure I use while playing,(un-scientifically of course) and I have come to the conclusion that I exceed the "just enough" downward pressure by possibly as much as a 1/4 of the total exerted pressure of "just enough".

The only explanation I have for the percentage I have determined is based strictly on my inate feelings, so others mileage may vary.

There are times when I prefer a heavier bar, and when doing so I have developed mental triggering which continually tells me I can use less downward force.

At times I prefer a heavier bar although I can feel the weight drag when moving quickly. When I use a lighter bar, although I inately add downward pressure, at times I somehow feel less encumbered.

In summation I believe I exert the same amount of downward pressure on the strings when using different bar weights, and the downward pressure exceeds the point of "just enough".

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

this has been a blast to read
there are beginers arguing with folks that have been playing longer than i have been alive...i think they just like attention
hahahaha

------------------
Mullen SD-10 3&5 / nashville 400

[This message was edited by Calvin Walley on 22 November 2006 at 08:54 PM.]

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

John I stand corrected as to the date. Thank you.
Late 70's then.

I did know the early studio was there,
but basically under-maned,
and no real organized program. Till a bit later.
Though clearly courses were taught. Then the studio was expanded.

It was installed as an adjunct to the Performance Center.
At least this was what I was lead to believe back then.
We ARE talking 25-30 years ago now... seems like 50... or a million; DRAT!

Reece interesting about the downward preasure.

How about having the student slip his fingers under the strings BEHIND the bar
towards the rollers, touching lightly.

And as you move the bar back over their fingers a few times,
they can get a sense of how far down
the strings are pushed.

If the strings don't rattle, then it is just enough.
Works for me.

More than that will cause differing pitch bends on the strings.
Not to mention keeping an even preasure
across all strings while the bar moves...
If all strings changed pitch when stretched, evenly,
then tuners wouldn't neeed to be adjusted for each string.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 22 November 2006 at 09:51 PM.]

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Donny, those tests have been done for years, and if you don't manipulate the data, my point is correct.

However, if you move the point of attc=ack you can limit the waveform...whcih is NOT what wwe're talking about.

Pick with celluloid, metal, a brick...if you do it at the same spot with relatively the same force, the tone will be the same after the point of attack, i.e. when the vibration reaches equilibrium. This is pure and simple college physics, and also basic acoustic theory. In this case, sitting behind a guitar is no substitue for education, sorry.

Reeece - that Chet story has been told for years on guitar forums, and generally considered to be a legend, since it's not acoustically correct nor proven. Sorry.

Darrell Owens · From: California, USA

This is an interesting thread, and I have read the variety of opinions with interest.

Perhaps Jay Dee will add his insight here, but in the meantime I will respond to someone who said in regards to him,

"Take away his amps and effects rack and then tell me his sound only changes by 20%. His tone would almost take on a complete 360 degree turn. Wait a minute, does he not have the same hands?"

I recently had the opportunity to hear Jay Dee in a recording session where he recorded direct with no amp, no effects, no EQ, no reverb, playing his Emmons PP, and he sounded exactly like Jay Dee. The tone was there right out of the guitar. Of course, we added reveb and sweetened the EQ just a bit in the mix, but we did not need to change the tone, just enhanced what was already there.

I am one of the "believers" in the concept that the tone/sound is the signature of each player and it is in the hands as much as it is in an artist who paints on a canvas. It's not about the oil or the canvas, but what the artist puts on it with his "hands".

I don't mean to minimize the need for good equipment. I own a lot of guitars, amps, etc., but IMHO, it is the touch of the hands that influence the listener to listen again more than any other single factor.

It should also be noted that the instrument itself is the work of a craftsman who built it with his own hands.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

A string once it reaches its resonant equilibrium,
can STILL be affected by external factors,
such as the supports for it's endings,
and their angles relative to string motion.

Changer's angle of curvature,
and it's change as it moves.

The rollers depth and curvature.

And when barring, your hand movements, even when ostensibly still.
Subtle, but real, changes in tension and distance.

With the pedal steel there is also
the changing tensions
and changing angle of the changer top side.

Theory of a steady state decay is one thing,
but this is real world playing being discussed, not lab analysis.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Steve, I firmly believe that new players or early players should concentrate on the Music first, even if it takes a few years. The tone thing will arrive naturally as technique evolves.

If a new player or early player is trying to sound like Buddy on day one I think they are making a mistake. IF a player is asking about technique or playing positions they should seek a teacher who is proficient and can guide them into proper hand positions and technique.

The great players or performers of Music on any Instrument, are not really thinking about the Music..it is flowing naturally. The soul , the music and the Instrument are all connected. If a Musician has to think about what to play, what position to play it in and then attempt to concentrate on tone, it's not gonna happen.

Paul writes:
-----------------------------------------------
Its easy to change instruments and amps for a difference in tone. It's much harder to master the actual playing of the instrument which is the only method that can provide the tone we all dream of having.

---------------------------------------------

Which to me means, practice and become proficient first , learn what YOUR Instrument is capable of, understand what you want it to sound like and then make it happen.

I happen to use a lighter bar as my left hand is in constant fatigue from a nerve issue from years back.. I can hear the difference using the lighter bar. I am aware of it.

I don't mean to be harsh , especially on Thansgiving but someone's gotta throw this out there..

How many times have we spoken with fellow players or attended local gatherings where someone has stated that they just got a new brand X or an old brand X and it sounds awesome..And then when they play..

well it's not awesome...

IF a Race car driver doesn't really know how to drive, putting him in a new Z06 isn't gonna help...

There are so many elements of tone, of which many are I feel are correctly discussed here but the HUMAN personal factor is the most important in my view. You can have all of the prescibed elements down, but if you are playing a gig and you pretty much are not in the ZONE that night, or just playing lazy or maybe tired from the workday, all those things, it is gonna show up in your playing and tone to some degree. On our Instrument you cannot hide from left hand or right hand technique..and execution. You're either doing it..or your not..I suspect that on certain occassions, even if we CAN do it..we don't.

" How come when you play my Tele it sounds totally different than when I play my Tele" ?

"Thats the Tone I'm trying to get "....

but

Like Stephen said to me on the phone the other night..

"Every Tele sounds great thru an AC-30"..

Now that may just be the exception to all the rules !

Happy Thanksgiving, travel safe..

great thread..

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 23 November 2006 at 03:22 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Reece Anderson · From: Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.

David D....Do you believe having someone lightly slip their fingers under the strings behind the bar to assess downward pressure has the perpensity to provide a false conclusion?

The pressures under the strings may vary considerably when the bar is closer to the nut. I believe the downward pressure can remain within consistent parameters while the downward felt compression procedure such as you suggest, has the possibility of varying.

I have closely examined my bar pressure with and electronic tuner, and the percentage of added pressure I exert does not result in a pitch bend. As I mentioned earlier, the additional downward pressure I apply is nothing more than an "inate feeling".

Another variable to be considered concerning downward pressure, is the possibility of that pressure changing as we move from the nut up the scale.

Jim S....Nothing for you to feel sorry about, it is I who considers it unfortunate you dismiss the point concerning the Chet story. The point is not about who said it, it's about what was said.

Incidentally, before some may come to a possibly quick conclusion, there's more to the story. The way I heard it, Chet's response was to a repeated heckler who some may believe deserved such a response.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Jeff, Albert King had great tone as did Freddie...!

Stevie..very good overall Strat tone..
and

I didn't know neil YOUNG played Sax !

" Now that you made it sound good, play the dang thing " !!

happy T-Day

t

John McGann · From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

Reece Anderson · From: Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.

This thread was intended to help players get the sound/tone "they" want. When someone can accomplish that, it is my experience their playing ability rapidly accelerates, as well as their confidence.

I believe a secret to accelerated learning comes in gleaning an overall perception based on logic which allows the mind to absorb and maintain a vast amount of information quickly.

Once the overall perception is understood, I believe the mind should disengage in thinking about the many procedures and elements, and let the sub-conscious take control of the entire process so the conscious mind can concerntrate on the music.

The elements involved in doing anything well, can be mind boggling when identified such as I attempted to do in the very beginning of this thread.

However please don't let that discourage anyone, because doing so it can provide a mental picture through logic that will allow the player to "stop thinking and begin playing". When that happens, greatly improved playing ability will result.

All the procedures of playing can appear to be overwhelming to relative beginners. One of my concerns about an indepth discussion, is that it could possibly tend to discourage some with less enthusiasm and determination than others. They may believe there are too many elements to consider, therefore the entire playing process is to complicated and time consuming.

I would like to assure anyone who may have that feeling, that if they will remain enthusiastic, positive and open minded and feed their mind with logical premise's, they will be taking advantage of what I believe to be a marvelous and fun filled shortcut to learning.

Today is Thanksgiving, and I wish each of you a blessed and joyful day...........

[This message was edited by Reece Anderson on 23 November 2006 at 05:01 AM.]

Larry Strawn · From: Golden Valley, Arizona, R.I.P.

Reece,
I've been following this thread trying to consume the great information you and many others have offered here. Thanks, and happy Holidays,

Larry

Franklin · Posted 23 Nov 2006 7:13 am

I sometimes have to add a part to an existing steel track. The key to this kind of work is matching the tone. I don't have to seek out another brand of steel and amplification for the gig. I always accomplish it through shifting my hands around. Here's an example of an issue I have had to match. If the existing tone has a growl on the top or bottom strings I will loosen the bar pressure at the end where more growl is required. This is a tricky thing to master. If I am not careful and add or extract too much bar pressure, at either end, the instruments tuning becomes an issue. This is one of many left hand variables that can change your personal tone, when needed.

ALL session players are confronted with this type of work so it would be interesting to hear their comments.

Off topic:

Jim,

IMO, A note on pedal steel guitars without manipulation is cold and it sounds non musical. Without the addition of the mind, hands, feet, knees, and most importantly, the heart, there is "NO" tone worth listening to. Creating personal tone out of a pedal steel for the "Most" part is a physical and mental undertaking.

It's your choice and most sadly your loss to argue semantics over given points with some of this instruments greatest musicians. Why not sit back and learn from Reece and Randy Beavers, instead of trying to stand on the same ground as those giants. They are freely trying to share their knowledge about playing music while maximizing a players complete personal tone. Are you a master of the playing tools Reece was trying to discuss here? If so, post some soundclips and share some playing tips.

[This message was edited by Franklin on 23 November 2006 at 09:34 AM.]

Fred Justice · From: Mesa, Arizona

Applause-Applause-Applause!!!
Amen Paul, Amen, and thank you.

------------------
Fred Justice,
Justice Custom Cases & Cabinets,
Fred's Music, www.fredjusticemusic.com

Mike Sweeney · From: Nashville,TN,USA

Paul,

I've never heard a more true statement. It seems as though tone is a nasty four letter word here. My analogy would be, Telling Reece, or Randy, or you about tone or playing the instrument would be the same as Helen Keller telling Dale Earnhardt how to drive a race car.
The bottom line is " a musical instrument is an inantiment[sic] object untill someone starts playing it."
Happy Thanksgiving to all,

Mike Sweeney

Mike Shefrin · Posted 23 Nov 2006 7:42 am

John McGann · From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

Special thanks to Reece, Randy, Johnny, Paul, Mike and Mike, Jeff and the other masters around here.

Happy Thanksgiving to all!

------------------
http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, technique tips etc. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Instructional DVDs, books and more...

Leonard Bick · From: Washington Court House, OH USA

Darrell,
In response to your remark about what I said concerning JD and taking away his amps and effects and running the steel straight, all I have to say is, your ears are deceiving you. And the remark about Chet stopped playing the guitar, proves what. The only thing it's proved to me is, he stopped playing. Go turn one eq knob to the extreme on his amp, while he was playing, and then tell me he still has the same tone. It's not possible.

"Pick with celluloid, metal, a brick...if you do it at the same spot with relatively the same force, the tone will be the same after the point of attack, i.e. when the vibration reaches equilibrium. This is pure and simple college physics, and also basic acoustic theory. In this case, sitting behind a guitar is no substitue for education, sorry."
Jim, I agree with you 100%. I don't care how long someone has been playing or how much money they're making. If they aren't getting a good tone, then they don't have my attention. They can say do it this way, or do it that way, but if the tone isn't there, I'm not buying what they say. I know this will cause a riot, but not very many steel players have good tone. I'm talking from the big time pro's, on down the line. If it's in the hands, then we all have bad hands, according to my ears. Buddy must be the only one with good hands. There's times when he gets better tone than other times. Did his hands have an off day?

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

"Are you a master of the playing tools Reece was trying to discuss here? If so, post some soundclips and share some playing tips. Stay on topic and we will listen!"

First Paul, I wasn't dismissing what Reece said at all. That got lost in the "possee" jumping in and deciding I said things I didn't...including Reece, who in his reply to my first post misinterpreted me, which I corrected - and the correction was ignored, as the air of "Reece MUST be right, Jim must have said that" became all too apparent.

Since then, several times I have pointed out that I agree completely with the influence the hands have on the total sound, and they are a large part of what defines that player's sound.

But I've also suggested that the instrument's inherent tone is where everything starts. The hands manipulate THAT sound.

It's on-topic, a perfectly valid point...

...and based on 40 years (with thousands of gigs) of playing guitar and bass, 30 years of dobro (where the hands do much of the same manipulation) and mandolin, 25 years of lap steel, and other various instruments; including decades as a guitar and amp tech, a live sound engineer at Universal Amphitheater, a member of Fender's Artist Endorsement list, a couple hundred studio dates (never my main thing, unfortunately), guitar technical book editor/ghost writer among other "beginner" activites.

If I had a way to post sound clips of my own stuff and permission to post them of other's I would. But I guess you'll just have to take my word that I have a small amount of experience.

I've held off from posting all this stuff, because I feel it's unecessary. Intelligent commentary is what it is, and this is the only forum I've ever seen where unless you're a "steel hero" or one of their leg humpers, your opinion is crap.

I hope that suffices, and won't make Randy Beavers have his mother send me *another* email telling me I need to stop posting because I'm a "beginner".

Wade Romonosky · From: Illinois, USA

I haven't read all of the post in this thread so if I repeat something forgive me. I think Reese was trying to include something that is often overlooked when talking about sound/tone. I was suprised that some think that the amp does most of work for the tone they have. Like Chet try playing without your hands and see what happens. I would like to ask Reese a question. Have you ever experienced playing your rig in your practice room one day where you sound like you want and the next day you dont sound the same? And is it possible that our ears change due to some medical reason that we may not understand? Having said that I believe that the hands are the biggest factor in getting the sound I desire.

Thanks Wade

Jody Cameron · From: Angleton, TX,, USA

Thank you, Paul!

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