ZB Pedal Steel Guitars - Please help!

[Jim Sliff]

I'm used to turnbuckles from working on countless Fenders - it was the thread pattern that was mystifying. Fender used 6-32 and 8-32 at different times and left-hand tap/dies are easy to find...I don't recall that fine a thread though (i.e 6-40, which is probably what it works out to be).

I'll check websites where I located the Fender sizes and see if they have the right size after I do a bit of research to verify the diameter.

[Chris Erbacher]

jim, in messing with the same situation on my ZB, i ended up getting the turnbuckle barely on, then turning the end that goes into the changer in such a way so that when i started to tighten the turnbuckle, the flattened part that goes into the slot would start to turn toward the hole in the changer...then as the flattened part got to where it was the least bit able to be put into the slot, i would take either an allen wrench or screwdriver and press the flat part into the hole, and if i remember correctly, i found a screwdriver that i could wedge in between and hold that part in the changer while i tightened the turnbuckle and eventually got pretty good at it...i have been there too man and i know how frustrating it is...i hope that helps out...keep on keeping on man, you'll get it...

[Jim Sliff]

i found a screwdriver that i could wedge in between and hold that part in the changer while i tightened the turnbuckle and eventually got pretty good at it...i have been there too man and i know how frustrating it is

I've been using pretty much the same method, but the bent ends of the rods (with the "spoke" head on them) seem just barely wider than the space between the fingers - so the last bit of "turn" has to be forced. That's the tough part, as one hand is holding the pliers manipulating the rod end, the other is holding the rod or turnbuckle to keep the whole thing straight, and the third hand is....errrr...hmmm...

Who was it that said "sadistic"?

Oh, yeah - me.

[Chris Erbacher]

today i noticed for the first time that the raises and lowers that were not being used on any one particular string, were not always screwed in tight with the end plate...do you guys have the changes that are not in use on any one particular string tightened all the way down to the endplate or are they slightly loose?(for instance, on my guitar and most people's i would assume, the third string gets raised to an "A" note, yet isn't lowered, but there is a tuning screw at the endplate in case someone wanted to lower it somehow...) i am wondering this in regards to tone and or tuning issues...like if for some reason they weren't tightened because of temperature in the finger and tuning and such and or for things to be kinda loose so that there is more resonance in each string...kind of like an emmons where you don't want the neck screws totally tight with the body but rather a bit loose...i tightened them anyway and it stayed in tune pretty well from my house to the place where i jammed...it did have a stiffer feel to it can't for sure say about tone...i think tomorrow i will try playing each string and loosening the screw from the end plate to see if the tone changes and if it is better/worse...i was happy with the tone before, but when i saw that i was like, hey wait a minute, why aren't those against the endplate if they aren't being used...

[Jim Sliff]

Chris E. - I noticed the same thing; some tuning nuts are not snug against the endplate that are not used for tuning the corresponding string.

On this guitar, since the setup was so fouled, it could be someone just screwed around with it having NO idea what they were doing....but after your post I'm not so sure.

Anyone?

Next question - The 6th-string lower knee lever change seems to be all over the map as far as player preference; Day dropped to "D"; Emmons to "F#"; others to one of the two and in many cases the change isn't there at all.

This where I'm guessing the main "non-standard" change is. If 3+3 is pretty consistent (with the 2nd string lower to "D" - except for old copies of Emmons' copedent, where he omits that change) the 4th knee lever seems to be the "wild card".

If I could get a few players' preferences for the 4th lever - what change and why - that'll help me finalize the E9 setup.

One note - On this ZB LKL hangs between the A&B pedals, but has about 5/8" of play before it engages. I tried tightening the turnbuckle along with loosening the tuning nut to get less play but was unsuccessful. While I *MUCH* prefer it in this position to guitars I've had in the past (my MSA CLassic was the weirdest - the lever was just *right* of the C pedal, making it almost impossible to "rock" on A&B unless it was disabled (and yes, that was sitting up at the 15th fret - a position I don't like and don't use).

WIth the ZB LKL works fine in that position with my normal "Fender/GFI" sitting position - centered at the 12th fret (especially critical when using Sneaky Pete's old 1 1/4" - 1 1/8" tapered bar) but it is just a bit awkward and will be absolutely useless when I start using the C6 neck (which will be, as mentioned, a version of my B6 10-string copedent).

Mainly, I'd like to get the play out of it.

Sidebar - made my own lift kit out of headless 10-32 bolts, 10-32 hex connectors and a handful of nuts to lock the pieces together. Managed to raise the whole thing 2", which is the perfect height for me! FINALLY something other than my GFI (which has special order legs/rods) that I can play and use a volume and/or wah pedal without smacking my knees against the bottom!!

OF course, the "domino theory" was in full-force; the leg "clutches" would not hold, so I took them apart, inserted the right length of doweling into the large leg section, used a level and trimmed doweling a couple times - voila, a 2" height gain..

My 3-pickup 400 is almost complete (should be done today) - so this should hit the workbench for the whole 9 yards tonight.

Thanks again fir all the help/advice/counseling (hehe). There WILL be more, I'm sure.

I'd still like to know THREE things before doing anything else to it:

1) Are the changer rods a stock spoke of some type (if not how do you make the mushroomed head; if so where can you order them?

2) Since the changer finger "slots" are close to the same length, does the longer pull HAVE to go in the rear slot?

3) What is the best method for reattaching a fretboard with loose "humps" in it?

Thanks!

Ack - PS: I can never remember the physics of this; with a multiple-hole bellcrank does the pull get longer or shorter the closer you get to the body (I seem to recall closer=shorter & stiffer...and get your mind out of the gutter! ). I don't, obviously (since this isn't one of Kevin's beautiful machines) have bellcranks, but I DO have two pedal rod holes and multiple holes on the....heck, I don't know what to call them BUT bellcranks - they are the flat, swinging levers moved at one end by the pedal lever and the other has multiple holes for rod attachments (or tree attachments) - but WHICH holes are used and why?

Jim

[Bob Adams]

1)
Mushroom head, is just flared. Get a lump of steel round/ square it don’t matter about 1 ½” long drill the diameter of your rod down through it and countersink it at the top about six drill bit sizes up, run a hacksaw back up the base of the steel centering on the drilled hole) about half way. Then slide your rod into it with 3/16” ish up at the countersunk hole, stick it in a vice (the hacksawed end will grip the rod),hammer the end preferably with heat, pull up through and you have your ‘Mushroom’!

Alternatively, I don’t do that now at all simply file each side of the rod about 1” heat with a torch till red hot (almost instant as the metal and area is so thin) and bend a J at the end of the rod, it then fits very snugly into the keyhole in the changer and holds much more securely than the flared ends do!

2)
End nearest the changer for the short pull, corresponding with that middle cap screw (the only one on the end plate)

3)
Double sided tape or carpet (type) adhesive sprayed on both surfaces.

[richard burton]

Bob,
The problem with bending the rod into a hook is that, when there are two hooks 'side by side' (eg in the raise holes of strings 4 and 5) there isn't enough room for both of them.

That's why the countersunk head is used, as it gives a bit more space between the fingers

[Jim Sliff]

[quote
Get a lump of steel round/ square it don’t matter about 1 ½” long drill the diameter of your rod down through it and countersink it at the top about six drill bit sizes up, run a hacksaw back up the base of the steel centering on the drilled hole) about half way. [/quote]

It might be a difference in language use - but I don't have any idea what you are describing; not "a lump of steel" (the "it don't matter" comment further confused the intent) nor the entire hacksaw reference. Sorry; I'm sure you're trying to explain as clearly as you can, but I can't visualize it from those statements

slide your rod into it with 3/16” ish up at the countersunk hole, stick it in a vice (the hacksawed end will grip the rod),hammer the end preferably with heat, pull up through and you have your ‘Mushroom’!

Again, I have no idea what you mean other than something about flattening the end of the rod...but the methodology is lost in the language.

Do you have a picture of what you're describing? The "lump of steel"

2)
End nearest the changer for the short pull, corresponding with that middle cap screw (the only one on the end plate)

???

The end is going into a hole in one of the fingers of the changer...so it can't be "nearest" the changer If it's hooked into a slot in the changer, it's near the changer no matter WHICH hole. What is "nearest the changer" - and why?

Sorry - I'm not trying to be critical - but I simply don't understand the procedure because of the way the sentences are formed. Maybe *I'm* missing something - very possible since I know little about this guitar brand.

Also the "middle cap screw", which you say there's only one of...the only single screw in the endplate is a large one near the top between necks, generally above the input jack. It does not appear to have anything to do with the changer at all.

Another thing I've noticed, now that the guitar is on the bench (and will be for some time) - the changer fingers are not evenly spaced; that's something mentioned earlier when I described trying to insert a rod end, but the rod does not fit between fingers - they vary from 1/8" - 3/8" in spacing. Also, the fingers seem to be at random heights away from the body - no pattern at all, with variances of up to 3/16" between adjacent fingers (and around 14" in distance between lowest and highest).

Shouldn't they all line up evenly? It would seem "normal" that they would be even in height, equal in spacing and the ends all parallel (I'm comparing to my GFI's fingers and even 50-year old Fenders where everything is precise).

[Bob Adams]

Jim, I am sorry if I have confused you in any way I will try and give you pics of a what I meant this is the '''' only one''pic''''

I'll sort something on the steel sq.round thingy in the morning as it is 3.10am here right now!

hang on in there! my latest is beginning to sound a bit peachy!!!

definitely worth the trouble!

[Jim Sliff]

This is separate from the previous post as it addresses a different issue discussed earlier; after a drawing was posted of the "F" lever rod and I posted my "edited" edition I received several comments "offline" that I was wrong - the rod HAD to go in the back hole, and could not be shaped as I had drawn.

I need to clarify I am simply trying to get this guitar operational and have no need to BS anyone about it. As follows:

1. The F lever rod.
2. The F lever rod laying on the guitar as if the hex tuner was about right - with the spoke lining up with the FRONT slot.
3. The F lever hex tuner tightened as far as possible - any tighter and the rod would extend from the center of the tuner. This is with the spoke in the BACK hole.
4. The GAP between rod and turnbuckle if the spoke is in the back slot.


Conclusion - the rod IS shaped as described and would have to go in the front slot for it to operate...at all.

[Bob Adams]

Jim, can you get your hands on a die to thread the far end?? forget all the turnbuckle crap, take the rod from the changer right to the crossbar end (lever or pedal) thread it there and adjust(draw it up!)as you need to, no need for any of that left / right stuff look carefully at this pic, the guitar operates like a dream!

[Jim Sliff]

Bob-now that my 400 is dialed-in to the point where I just have small individual changes to make periodically I can concentrate on the ZB.

Yep, I actually was thinking the same thing, especially when I get to the other neck, which will NOT be C6. The turnbuckles seem, in the case of the ZB design, to be a hindrance rather than a help.

Be that as it may, for the moment I hooked it up the way I knew it HAD to work (not the way in the original drawing, but instead the way my drawing had it laid out - essential considering the shape of the rod!) and after the usual round of cursing at the random finger spacing and having to clean every gunked-up rod, I got it hooked up correctly, guessed at the tuner settings and darned near nailed all of them. A few minor adjustments and everything hitting the right notes AND starting/stopping at the same time (not precisely, but at least as accurately as anything else I've played, including my GFI).

I'll see how it settles in over the next few days - but apparently there was more than one type of welded "F" rod - and they both work.

Edited to add a couple pics since I was able to "degunk" it.

This was the NASTIEST cleaning job I've ever had on a guitar, with two major points to make:

1. DO NOT use oil on threads, changers, moving parts - it will make someone's life miserable (all the moving parts were caked with oil/grease/dirt). Oils attracts dirt and WILL gum up the works. This is now lubed with dry Teflon and the parts actually move without a crowbar....

2. Don't apply "mystery coating" to metal parts - rods, trees. legs, whatever. This one had some ambered-from-age junk all over the metal parts that required MEK and steel wool to remove! Not even lacquer thinner would touch it. Why it was coated I'll never know.

[Russ Tkac]

Looks nice Jim! I'm sure you'll get a nice sound like Al Perkins.

Russ

[Dave Magram]

Hi,

I hope I'm not violating any Forum policy. I just ran across this ad.

"ZB Custom Steel Pedal Guitar - $2000 (El Cajon)"
Date: 2009-07-23, 5:18AM PDT
ZB CUSTOM GUITAR Steel Pedal Guitar with Double Neck (11 lower and 10 upper string). Serial Number 0392.

http://sandiego.craigslist.org/esd/msg/1284482144.html

Could be a good deal for someone in So. Calif.

Dave

[Jim Sliff]

Slowly but surely it's getting cleaned up and adjusted. It's amazing how much gunk was stuck in the changers - greasy, sticky dirty residue from liberal lube jobs with no flushing out of debris/dirt over the years. I scraped about 1/8" of muck off the back of both changers and have gone through a half-gallon of naphtha flushing things clean AFTER scrubbing them.

I was also amazed by the knee lever rods. In the pictures they look like they did 2 days ago - like aluminum with a medium level of corrosion, an almost unstoppable problem. I decided to try to get them looking a little more consistent so I went progressively: rag/409; 3m pad/naphtha; 0000 steel wool/MEK. And what did I find but nice, smooth, chrome rods under some bad aluminum flake paint! This just gets weirder and weirder! The pedal "straps" also had some of that junk on them - I'm about halfway through and except for a few scratches on them they look almost new.

The straps seem to have a mix of strap rubbing directly on the center piece, or various kinds of washers. Is there a standard washer ZB used - and does anyone know what kind of coating or plating is on the center sections? I have not performed chemical tests - it appears to be either a baked enamel, a Kynar fluoropolymer or a slick anodized system; unfortunately the inconsistent use of washers and misalignment of parts has damaged the surface in places leaving bare metal - for now I'm installing washers as a stopgap but have several choices (thin brass or nylon) but will eventually coat parts with a Teflon coating (another fluoropolymer-based system.).

The design seems extremely odd - with those straps rubbing on the center plates there's a huge amount of friction. I DO have resources to drop that to near-zero, but am curious what the original design called for.

Thanks -

Jim

[Dwight Lewis]

Anyone know where I can find a 12 string triple coil ZB style out there? Thanks

[Kevin Hatton]

Dwight, what happened to the original pickup? These are hard to find.

[Randy Beavers]

Hey Kevin, we worked Buck's Crystal Palace for his 80th birthday celebration last Thursday night. During the breaks they played vintage Buck songs with Tom of course. Old photos and memorabilia surround the venue of the original Buckaroos including Tom with his ZB. I can't think of a single place that I'd rather been on that night. I had goose bumps walking around and seeing all those pictures, while listening to the original recordings on the sound system. There's nothing quite like listening to Together Again in that venue.

[Dwight Lewis]

Kevin, I never had one. I was looking for one as a project. I have tried to get one thru BMI to no avail. I have only seen one for sale. I heard that the ToneAligners were the new version or replica of these vintage triple coils. How true that is I dont know.

[Kevin Hatton]

Dwight, I will keep my eyes open for one, but they are nearly impossible to find because there were not alot of 12 string ZB's made.
Randy, thats interesting about the Crytal Palace. When you hear those old recordings with Tom playing on his ZB's you can here just how unique and special the ZB sound is, and Tom's playing style. That is exactly why I only play ZB's, and build the Retro Steel Guitar (ZB). Mr. Brumley was a special person. He left us a legacy. A great inspiration. As you are also for us Randy.

[Dwight Lewis]

Thanks Kevin. What about the Tonealigners? I heard they are suppose to be very much like these triples.

Dwight

[Dave Zirbel]

Dwight, it's my understanding that the Tonealigner is designed after the "Crap Trap" that was designed by Danny Shields. Did Danny also help develop the ZB triple coil pickup?

Speaking of Buck, I just had the pleasure of playing a Buck Owens B-day tribute show! What fun. A steel players dream. I took the ZB S-10 out and a SF Deluxe Reverb w/JBL and had the best tone ever and got to play all those great tunes! Buckeroo, Cryin' Time, Tiger By The Tail, Foolin' Around, etc...........

Dave

[Chuck McGill]

Speaking of Buck, has anyone heard anymore about Greg
Jones health? I probably should post under Steel Players, but this seems to be the right place for the
question to me.

[Kevin Hatton]

I just talked to him. He's all healed up.

[Duncan Hodge]

Good Morinig Ladies and Gents, at least it's still morning here in sticky, hot and rainy Florida.
Just saw this on the other instruments for sale site and thought someone might be interested.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-ZB-Custom-P ... 286.c0.m14
Duncan