The Steel Guitar Forum

Ronald.

Policies and even contracts have to pass a test of reasonability in most civil courts. Not just legality. A person cannot sign away rights, nor can a company revoke them with arbitrary policies, regardless of the size of the print.

Few states differ from that.

In fact in Louisiana, if you buy something for less than half of it's real value, the sale can be cancelled after the money and property has changed hands, if the seller changes his/her mind.

The court system however is not going to help out Cor as readily as a guy living here. That's too bad.

Maybe keeping this alive on the Forum without the subject being locked and banned for degenerating into acrimony will help Cor more than anything.

Hopefuly the Sysop will allow the necessary bandwidth.

b0b's a pretty nice guy for the most part..



EJL

Eric

I am aware of the rules over at your Country and we have the same.Our contracts and policy's are also tested and must be legalized by our court.We call it the chamber of commerce.They have the possibility to close people down and order the manufactor to refund the money.But they will only do this if a court can't come to a verdict.
I think that this is the same in America.

And i can understand that an American has more rights in such matters then a European that buy's something in America.
And vice versa.
Totally understandable....

And i also hope that b0b will give us the bandwith to keep this alive.

Ron

Nikaro SD10 4x6

"And i can understand that an American has more rights in such matters then a European that buy's something in America.
And vice versa.
Totally understandable...."

I may be wrong here, but I do not see anything understandable in foreigners having less "rights" than citizens in any given country, regarding the eventually occuring legal issues in connection with any business.
If this is the truth you might as well tell people in Europe or elsewhere that if they're dealing with Americans in America they shouldn't be surprised if they're F.....!
Is that reasonable, or even the truth???


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Klaus Caprani

MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4

Klaus

No offence but do you really believe that the Danish law would do the same for me as they would do for you in such cases?

I don't think so.
I wish it were true..


Ron

Nikaro SD10 4x6

Boy, I hope not.
This country should be looked at as a bastian of honor and honesty. A refuge for all that is good, right and respectable. I hate to see a couple of inexperienced nerdowells ruin the reputation of the whole country. No matter who they may be.
Brandella SGW

Hi Ron!

Provided that you went through the normal legal channels, at least theoretically, yes!
Ofcourse it's a must that you are able to proof that you actually have a case, exactly as in all other circumstances when the justice-system gets involved. That just might be the problem in this case, or that's a least what I choose to believe.
By the way. I'm buying my strings from Germany , though mostly for customs reasons.

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Klaus Caprani

MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4

Klaus

I think that is the only problem in each case.Foreigners are not that well tought in law and policy's of another country.

The Dutch people are people that can be tricked.Once we made an oral agreement we come to believe that everything is settled.
Just because an oral agreement is legaly valid in our country.

Ron

Nikaro SD10 4x6

.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 17 November 2004 at 07:06 PM.]</p></FONT>

Ron!

Non-written agreements are just as valid as written agreements in this country as well (and I guess even in the US). The only problem (and that goes for Netherlands too) is that if you've got no witnesses they're damn' hard to proof in a court of law.
I love the thought of "A man is a man and a word is a word" very much too, but thanks to lowlife frauds it often can't be lived out. Too sad!

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Klaus Caprani

MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4

Regarding rights -- I'm not an authority on the subject, but from what I know, in the USA, non-citizens have the same rights as citizens at least in regard to certain matters such as civil law, etc. (on the other hand, non-citizens don't have the right to vote, they don't have the right to enter the country and/or stay in the country whenever, and for however long they want to etc., for obvious reasons).

Getting to the subject at hand, a non-citizen -- let's say somebody from Europe -- has exactly the same rights in the USA as a USA citizen in regard to seeking a remedy at law with respect to a business transaction.

However, the real issue here is "jurisdiction." From the facts of the matter as I understand them, jurisdiction would be in the state of North Carolina or at the very least somewhere in the USA. This is because Cor essentially went to the Emmons company and offered to purchase a product.

As an illustration of the contrary case, if the guitar had been purchased from an Emmons representative in Europe, or maybe in response to an advertisement which offered to sell guitars and which ad was published in Europe, then the jurisdiction would quite possibly lay in Europe.

Similarly, if a US citizen contacted a European company directly, and placed an order for a product to be built and shipped to the USA, and then had problems such as those alleged here, then that US citizen could not seek legal remedies through a US court because jurisdiction for the matter would lay in the European courts.

So, in this case, it's ALMOST certain that the jurisdiction is in the USA and more specifically in NC.

That means that in order to seek legal remedies against Emmons, Cor has to do so through the NC courts.

I'm not familiar with the NC court system, and I don't think anyone has suggested this, but could it be possible that Cor could go through a small claims court. Most states have such courts and there are limits on the amount of damages sought etc., but the costs are much less. Also, it's possible that somebody could represent Cor on his behalf due to the fact of the distances involved.

Also, maybe somebody could, on Cor's behalf, contact a legal clinic such as one operated through a law school (there are 5 law schools in NC, last time I checked), which typically take cases for free in circumstances where the client is in a difficult situation or cannot pay etc.

Just a few thoughts.

Another thought -- if the Emmons company has representatives (i.e. agents, dealers etc.) in Europe and/or publishes advertisements in Europe, then it's quite possible that Cor could seek a remedy through a European court.

If so, and if a judgement is reached in Cor's favor, then that judgement would most likely have full faith and credit in the NC courts.

However, like I say, I'm not very knowledgeable about such things -- just trying to throw some things out there which might possibly work.

Amen Klaus

I think we share some thoughts.

Tom

I think that Emmons has a dealer overhere in The Netherlands but i don't know if he is jumping up and down to take this thing on.

Ron

Nikaro SD10 4x6<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Ronald ! on 30 October 2004 at 11:41 AM.]</p></FONT>

Ron -- the dealer need not get involved at all. The fact that there is an Emmons dealer in the country could quite possibly be enough to allow Cor to seek remedy through the courts of the Netherlands.

In other words, if a company chooses to establish itself in a given country (such as through establishment of a dealer network in that country) then the company makes itself accessible to the legal system of that country.

So, what I am saying is that if there is enough facts to establish that Cor can seek remedy through the courts of the Netherlands, then he could do so. In such a case, Emmons would have two choices: 1)defend itself; or, 2) face a default judgement.

If Cor can get a judgement against Emmons through the Netherland courts, then he can take that judgement to the USA and apply it through the USA courts against Emmons without having to win again agains Emmons in the USA courts.

Tom

You might have something here.

Ron

Nikaro SD10 4x6

I'm sorry..., I was going to keep quite about this issue since the last time I spoke up and nearly caused a riot. It sounds to me that the reason Emmons haven't spoken up so far is probably because their attorney's have told them not to talk with anyone about anything. What does that mean? They probably have started bankruptcy proceedings which in itself tells us that Cor may never see his monies ever again! If he starts any legal actions against Emmons and the Lashleys, it'll take months or maybe even years, and by that time they may be safe under the cloak of American business laws (bankruptcy laws). Last night I was thinking of any other options avaliable to the Lashleys. What if they sell out to another guitar builder who has money, or access to plenty of money to take that company and turn it around? But then the actual points of business hit me, and I realized that there is probably not enough guitar buyers right now to even make it profitable. But, it would be a great attempt if anyone of us knows a millionaire who has money to burn to make an offer to the Lashleys. Who knows what could happen? Right?

Bob<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bob Wood on 30 October 2004 at 12:52 PM.]</p></FONT>

<SMALL>It sounds to me that the reason Emmons haven't spoken up so far is probably because...</SMALL>

Speculation aside, the Lashleys are not members of the Steel Guitar Forum. Only members can post replies. Like many people, they have chosen not to join or participate in this Forum. I can't fault anyone for that, and I can't read anything into the "silence" of someone who isn't a member.

I'm sort of annoyed that Arnold Schwartzenegger hasn't posted, though.

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<img align=left src="http://b0b.com/b0bxicon.gif" border="0"><small>               Bobby Lee</small>
-b0b-   <small> quasar@b0b.com </small>
 System Administrator

"the Lashleys are not members of the Steel Guitar Forum"

Thanks for telling us, b0b. That would explain why we're not hearing the factory's side of this.

They may not be members 'now' of this Forum, but it might behoove (love that word) them to spend the couple of bucks to join and defend their actions.

In short, these guys are crucifying them, rightfully or wrongfully.

Until I hear their side of the story, and they convince me they are right, one couldn't get me to buy a new Emmons if drug through a fire pit.


fred




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The spirit be with you!
If it aint got a steel, it aint real

I've been saving my money for a long time to buy a new Emmons.Just when I was about to call I found this topic on the forum.

Now I think I'm going to get another brand.

Tommy

I've been saving my money for a long time to buy a new Emmons.Just when I was about to call I found this topic on the forum.

Now I think I'm going to get another brand.

Tommy

I'm so discussed about this that I wouldn't even buy a used Emmons!

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Klaus Caprani

MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4

Ofcourse I mean "Disgusted"
Sorry!

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Klaus Caprani

MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4

<SMALL>What if they sell out to another guitar builder who has money, or access to plenty of money to take that company and turn it around?...</SMALL>

Ii may be too late for that to help. Once a brand name is tarnished by bad dealings, it seems to take <u>decades</u> to erase the ill-will that has spawned. And indeed, for some people, those feelings <u>never</u> go away. Words I still see here occasionally about another manufacturer will certainly attest to that. I'm certain that a lot of us would have liked to have see an Emmons Guitar Company presence here on the Forum, and I can't help but think that, if they do have some sort of "problem" right now, their absence here has been a contributing factor.

Long before now, Emmons needed (and should have had) their own "Mike Brown".

.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 17 November 2004 at 07:06 PM.]</p></FONT>

True spoken BRANDELLA!!!America will not be tarnished by someone or two,not doing right!
This is a great country founded by faith and trust!!and GOD!!I'm praying that we will keep going in the right direction!!Let us be proud and stand tall.I do not ever want to see us any other way. We are in a critical time right now with Election here,i'm praying the right thing will be done!!!! GOD BLESS THE U S A farris