The Elements Of Tone!

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Donny: "What is true for one is not always true for the other".

Of course not. You talk as if it's a black and white issue though. They are VERY similar, especially in the way construction and electronics affect the tone of the guitar and how the hands can manipulate that basic tonal platform.

You're on some kick branding me as the "six string" guy when I have just a little experience with 40 years of instrument sound...not just 6-string guitar...including college courses on acoustical foundations of music that included the physics of both acoustic and electric instruments.

So stop with the "validity" arguments - you're standing in quicksand, and it's getting tiresome, honestly. I hate playing a credentials game, but as far as I know, the only ones you have are that you can type

"f you don't think hands have a blanking thing to do with tone, then you have nothing to say, do you?? PLEASE!!! STAY ON TOPIC!!"

Mike, I don't think anybody said hands have no effect on the sound at all, at least in the posts I read. But equipment is a valid part of the equation and it directly affects the hands...because certain types of equipment can either limit or expand the role the ands play in sound manipulation. You can't separate the two, as any change in equipment requires a change in use of hands to either overcome deficiences, alter the sound, change the attack, etc. If instead you're bothered because some people don't think that tone *starts* with the hands...well, that's just the way it is.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 21 November 2006 at 08:49 PM.]

Mitch Ellis · From: Collins, Mississippi USA

Tony Prior,
I hate it when that happens!ha!ha! It really "puts your fire out" don't it.

Mitch

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

My 2 cents worth-
At my store I generally tend to have about 40 different pedal steels there as well as about 15 +/-lap steels and 10 different amp combinations. Anyone entering is encouraged at anytime to play any combination of any rig anyway they want to. Most chose to use the Stereo Steel through a a Lexicon MPX1 and 2 15's that is already setup but most any rig is available. Most of the time I attempt to stay out of the way unless the customer wants me there so I busy myself with working on a project or just plain cleaning my navel- whatever.. . The long and short of it is, to my ears, most folks pretty much sound the same- no matter what guitar or amp they are playing- each customer sounding different than the last- but sounding the same no matter whether they are playing a Maverick or a PushPull. Whether or not someone calls it tone- to me it's where the rubber meets the road- how does it sound?
I asked Reece one time how he deals with playing through the various rigs that he ends up playing through from venue to venue to achieve the sound he wants to hear and I'll never forget his answer.
"In about 5 minutes I just end up sounding like me- regardless of the settings on the amp so I don't bother too much with all that. My hands just seem to adjust to the guitar and amp that I'm playing without me giving it much thought."

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Johnny Cox, thank you very much for posting here.
And Randy, an expert no doubt, for luring you in too.

As David Wright said you hit the nail on the head,
and from an historical perspective.

You named major leage players,
in the same time period,
essentially playing the same equipment,
and get very divergent and individual tones.

In other words all things being equal,
their hand technique was the differing factor.

Certainly some will (no doubt) argue they set the amp differently.
But there is only so far from typical
you can tweak a Twin and not sound odd...
The clear difference stated was hand technique.

So I postulate :
if you like a particular steel like a PP or Fessendon
for it's inherant sound, fine play through that,

but at the same time you can get a larger difference
in that instrument's POSSIBLE sounds
by the application of hand techniques.

If you DON'T seriously investigate your hand technique,
and how it excites the strings,
then you are likely losing a lot of sounds
your prefered instrument can make.

I think Damir might agree I got a MUCH different tone from his Promat than he gets.

So who came first the chicken or the egg?

Your amp settings,
or your fingers plucking the strings
and bar creating a vibrational distance
and it's harmonic series?

I gotta go with the fingers, bar and strings.
After that it's all just manipulation
of the sound energy.

Secondly... Garbage in garbage out.
No amount of amp and instrument tweaking
can make poor string tone,
good tone. Let alone GREAT tone.

Jim P. nice to see you here too.
Interesting comment also.

People sound like themselves on several different instruments.

I wonder of Bobbe has had similar expirence
with many people passing across many different steels.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 22 November 2006 at 04:02 AM.]

Mitch Ellis · From: Collins, Mississippi USA

As far as tone goes, some say it's in the hands. I agree. Some say the guitar. I agree. Some say the amp. I agree. But "75% is that you got it or you ain't" is the way I see it. I've heard 20, 30, and 40 yr. player's that, to me, didn't sound very good, no matter what steel or amp they used. I've noticed something too... those that have "got it", never bragg about it. They don't need to. Everybody can hear it.I don't know what gives those rare players that exceptional tone. The only thing I can figure is......they've "got it".

Mitch

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I sure hope that the guys that actually know how to play the pedal steel keep posting every so often. I get quite a bit out of it.

For any of you out there that want to learn how to control your sound better with your hands you could try a thing I do. To get a brighter sound I play through the crappyest amp around and turn off all the treble and mids and turn the bass all the way up.Then I practice like that for a few days or until I can get the brightest, snappyest sound possible. I even play harmonics like that.

Then I do the opposite to get a beefy, bassy, full sound. I turn the treble all the way up and the bass and mids all the way off on a little crappy practice amp. I play like that for days or weeks untill I can get as much bass out of the amp as possible in every note.

Lately I've been playing one note, like the note B right below middle C, on every string I can. Real slow and over and over again. I try to make each note B sound exactly the same no matter where I play in on the neck. Its pretty subtle but really pays off when it comes to expression. I'll never play as well as Johnny Cox, Randy, Buck or Reece but I figure if I can train my hands to make what I can play sound good I got at least a little something going on.

------------------
Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Reece, I'm not sure if anyone has delved into the auditory end of this topic. That is, the differences that exist between those who hear highs much better than lows. It's a little scary to think what sounds good to me, may be heard differently by another listener. Surely, your great explorative mind must have zeroed in on this rationalization many times. Would you be so kind to comment on this matter of hearing differences?

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Bill after age 40 we don't really hear cymbals as they are.
We don't really hear the upper harmonics of fiddles etc.

If we spent 20-30 years hearing a steel amp up close and personal,
vs a drummer and the rest,
then we no longer hear in the freq. bands
that correspond to our

choice of amp settings,

and the harmonic content relative to the preponderance of music we have played.

We THEN start compensating for our aging
AND work related hearing deficentsies,
with the amp controls...
When somebody comes up and says, like was noted above,
you could use more bass in your sound...
Well it JUST MIGHT BE SO.

You just don't know it.
But you resent the suggestion of somebody mucking
with 'YOUR SOUND'

Yet your sound is NOT
what you think it is...
cause ya just ain't hearing reality no mo!

I KNOW that I don't hear top end like I used to,
But I have enough experince to not
over do it while mixing.

I also started doing more acoustic or low level music 15 years ago.
One benifit of jazz, is
it just ain't so loud.

Now all the above has some negative affects on your sound.

But if you leave your amp settings conservative,
then by using good technique,
you likely can draw out the best tone from your instrument,
without trying to blindly compensate with amp settings.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 22 November 2006 at 10:01 AM.]

John Drury · From: Gallatin, Tn USA

What?

------------------
John Drury
NTSGA #3

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

Bob, now that was a very thought-provoking idea. Pick control is a very subtle artform. I'll try that experiment myself.

I, like many players, came from a 6 string background. I used to study Chet's style. Not so much for his chordal methods, but for the tonal palettes he could create. When I began playing steel, I naturally applied the same technique to it. Pick control will definitely affect what is heard.

Here's another simple experiment to demonstrate how the hands effect your tone....

If I angle the pick so that the string rolls off the rounded edge, I get a mellower tone. If I angle the pick so that the string comes off the flat surface, I get a sharper tone.

The strength of the attack also plays a roll. A strong attack emphasizes the harmonic root moreso than a lighter attack, which brings out more of the harmonic content.

The pick's position relative to the pickup is another variable, as has been mentioned before. Closer to the pickup produces a sharper tone. Conversely, farther away gives a more mellow tone.

Each one of the above can easily be demonstrated on any guitar and each has a slightly different effect. There are, of course, several more variables, but just taking these alone, one can, by mixing the 3 variations, produce a wide palette of tones.

The above will demonstrate what this thread is about. The hands have an important and unmistakeablely direct effect on the resulting tonal characteristics of the note played.

The amp, and any other electronics that may be used, can manipulate the frequency spectrum and gain structure, but can't really change the initial character of the note.

If you choose to confine the definition of tone to "that which comes out of the speaker", that's fine. The point is that the interaction between the hands and the strings creates an initial tonal character for the note that persists throughout the signal path. That note may get manipulated, distorted, or otherwise changed, but it's source is still the same. By changing the note's character at the source you will change the tone of the note coming from the speaker.

It is this "source control" that we are discussing. Has anyone else ever analyzed how they pick and developed any theories about it?

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Careful, Mike - you mentioned 6-string tactics, and the steel police will tell you it's all irrelevant!

;-)

But as far as what you said - the angle, the shape of the pick and the pick material all combine with strength and speed of attack to affect the initial fraction of a second of sound that's projected. That little piece of time along with vibrato and choice of notes and timing is what defines a player, and what a player can manipulate with the hands.

Once the string is vibrating at some level of equilibrium (assuming the bar or pedal is static at the time) the hands have done their thing and the tone *is* the equipment.

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

"the resulting tone, or sound, would change? "

Sound yes - tone no. I know it seems like semantics, but it's really a fundamental principle of acoustic engineering. "Schooled" studio engineers (those that actually go to school to learn it) are well aware of these things, which are in published papers.

With Tele players, because the "normal" instrument is so unforgiving and has such precise articulation, they use a wide variation in attack to get that first "hit" that makes a player sound distinct. But once you dig into a G played at the 12th fret on the 3rd string and let it ring, the instrument reproduces its inherent tone, and the right-hand influence becomes moot (assuming a "normal" note and not a "false harmonic", if you all know what I mean).

Once a string is vibrating on its own without manipulation, it reflects only the tone of the instrument, amp and environment. And that tone is STILL there in the initial attack - which is why the "sound" can be changed by the hands, with no argument...but the hands only manipulate the inherent tone, and the right-hand influence on that is a split-second effect.

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

I can see Jim's point. This is true with acoustic instruments as well. My '62 Southern Jumbo has a beautiful, unique tone that is produced when any player picks it up and has a strum. It sounds the same every time, tonally. But yes, different hands bring out different elements of that tone, but they do not change the inherent tone. Whether they are fingerpicking or flatpicking, the tonal character of the guitar is still the same. I could pick it out among 20 different guitars, with any number of people strumming it. A good friend recently used it for his new CD - and when I heard a recording of him playing my guitar, it sounded, well, just like my guitar - with him playing it. So it was his playing style mixed with the natural tone of the guitar.

Hope I haven't veered too much from the topic at hand, but from an acoustic point of view my experience has been that the guitar owns the tone and the player manipulates that tone to their own aural preference.

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

If I were to pick the string farther from the pickup, I would get a note richer in lower order harmonics and the fundamental, no? Then as the note decays, the inherent factors of the guitar's makeup come into play by attenuating, or accentuating certain frequency ranges. Does this track with what you are saying?

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Mike - correct, *except* when you pick at a specific point in the harmonic wave - where the string vibration essentially "idles". Then your continued string vibration will be within that certain range of frequencies activated (there's always a small amount of other movement, though). But a random point further from the bridge will cause the initial movement of the string to carry mostly lower frequencies...then as it continues, more of the string vibration pattern is brought into play without any interference by the player. Depending on how accurately placed the pick is, the direction of string travel (as magnets affect the vibration as well) and the strength of atack, the "change" can be almost instantaneous or take a few seconds.

This is something proven by both scope traces and slow-motion video.

FWIW a piano is set up so the "hammer" strikes the strings at a point that is NOT limited to certain frequencies at the initial point of impact. It's a complicated design set up to optimize the full harmonic content of each string at the point of attack.

A good study of some of these effects plus other acoustic theory is the book "The Acoustical Foundations of Music" (or very close to that title). I forget the author - my son has my copy right now. A lot of "common knowledge" gets debunked rather quickly in scientific studies, where tests and physical proof back up the realities.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 22 November 2006 at 06:49 AM.]

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

I came into this from a six-string background also, and one of the critical variables is how much tonal change you can get by varying the angle of the flatpick. The contour of the tip, and the thickness of the pick interact in a way that can give you anything from a tight, flat click to an almost "bowing" effect - a lot of players switch to the round corner of the pick, and even change the angle of the pick so that they're hitting the front edge on upstrokes to achieve certain tonal changes.

This is independant of how far up you are from the bridge, what kind of overdrive you're inducing by volume changes, whether your overdrive/compression is cutting off some of the initial attack, whether you're hitting the strings horizontally or more vertically, and a lot of other stuff that keep guitarists arguing into infinity. A lot of purists claim that equalization and compression are vices, without understanding that the amp manufacturers have already spent a lot of time and effort building equalization and compression right into their amps, in a way designed to please their target audiences. Peavey calls their compression "DDT", and their mid-shift control is a specific parametric EQ.

Different variations in which frequencies are emphasized can absolutely change the proportional volumes of notes. I have a graphic EQ and a parametric EQ on separate channels of my home rack, and I can reshape the loudness and proportional tonal content of various sections of the fretboard of either a steel or a six-string. AMPS ALREADY DO THIS TOO - the engineers have just already decided for you what frequencies should be emphasized and cut. AND, this can't help but affect how you use your hands to try to bring out different sounds for different musical effects - at least, I sure hope not.

If you want to know what your steel really, really sounds like, plug it into a (non-tube) direct box, then straight into a power amp, then straight into some PA speakers, preferably with high-end tweeters or horns so you can really hear and feel that high-end treble bite. The reason your steel doesn't normally sound like that is because, mercifully, some engineer somewhere decided that he didn't want you making those kinds of noises.

[This message was edited by David Mason on 22 November 2006 at 07:33 AM.]

Waisznor · From: Berlin, Germany

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[This message was edited by Waisznor on 24 November 2006 at 03:55 AM.]

Johnny Cox · Posted 22 Nov 2006 8:02 am

Randy, no apology needed. I wanted in anyway, just needed a shove. I was once told a story about Chet Atkins, he was playing his guitar somewhere and a gentleman came up to him and said "man that guitar sounds great". Chet removed his hands from the instrument, raised his head and in his gentle voice asked the man, how does it sound now? Answer: it did'nt. I'm done.

------------------
Turn Up The Steel
Johnny Cox
MSA Steel Guitars

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

David Wright · From: Pilot Point ,Tx USA.

Well, against my Better Judgement, I keep reading this!!!!!!! and still go with the hands[url=http://plugin.smileycentral.com/http%253A%252F%252Fwww.smileycentral.com%252F%253Fpartner%253DZSzeb008%255FZNxdm825%2526i%253D12%252F12%255F6%255F14%2526feat%253Dprof/page.ht ml]

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[This message was edited by David Wright on 22 November 2006 at 08:18 AM.]

J Fletcher · From: London,Ont,Canada

My observation, after being a student of the steel guitar for about 14 years, is that I didn't start developing any real and sensitive right and left hand control until the last couple of years. Getting that hand and finger control is, for me, most of the battle of being able to phrase a lick properly. The first 12 years or so were spent learning licks, tunes, and trying to hit the right string. Now I can work on more subtleties of expression and phrasing because my hands are more developed, and playing the steel feels more natural. Not there yet, but I'm headed towards it.
If you've only been playing a couple of years or so, then most talk of developing your hands is probably not of immediate value to you because you are still concentrating on more fundamental stuff.
You have to earn those hands, that's where it's at, and it takes years and years....Jerry

Franklin · Posted 22 Nov 2006 8:53 am

Jim,

If I have read your post correctly, you believe, along with a few others on this thread, that once the string is picked the players hands are through and the instrument of choice, along with its amplification, does the rest which provides the complete tone we here.

Once a string is plucked, the musicians I work with and admire, NEVER stop manipulating the string for tonal purposes. This renders your professors theory pointless. If professional musicians do not play instruments in such a manner, as to hold the note without any further manipulation, then beyond building instruments that knowledge is useless when it comes to performing good tone.

Reece offered up a good start for you and others to learn from. He doesn't have to do that. He clearly tried to avoid the instrument and amplification arguments you presented, trying to focus on all the elements that picked the strings.

Bob,

When it come to performing music, the mind, hands and soul of the player controls and provides most of the tone we listen to on a daily basis. Amps and instruments also matter. This forum could sit down to your rig and amp settings and all would sound completely different.

Its easy to change instruments and amps for a difference in tone. It much harder to master the actual playing of the instrument which is the only method that can provide the tone we all dream of having.

Paul

Stephan Franck · From: La Crescenta, California, USA

I consider myself a guitar player, but only a steel guitar OWNER -- at best... But this being said, in my experience, in both cases, PRESSURE on the strings seems to be half the battle.

So I'm talking left hand/bar hand, here.

When someone walks up to me and asks "how to get that tone", and I may sound like a jerk for saying this, but it happens at every single gig I play, starting when I was 16 playing a korean no brand tele copy through a roland cube, to today playing a 75' tele through a boogie, I always say it's A CONTACT SPORT between the hand and the neck.

I've seen player struggling to get any "twang" out of their tele + twin, and watching them play, I could tell it was always a lack of pressure on the left hand...

I was actually surprised to learn that Reggie Young has some really heavy strings on his guitar -- .11 for the high E, or something crazy like that -- because he says that he puts so much pressure on the strings to control his TONE, that with lighter strings, he always goes pitchy.

So I guess the lesson here is don't have Reggie Young try to strangle you...

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