The Steel Guitar Forum

Fred, you're joking about perpetuating the stereotype but I must tell you. My thing is playing classical music on the steel, and I periodically give concerts in classical music venues, introducing our instrument to the Mozart/Beethoven community.

There are a a couple of places where I can play. But there are also some where they won't let me, because they are convinced that the steel can only play country and even though the people involved have never heard me or any of my recordings, they have decided that the steel would be inappropriate for their facilities.

I've been told (by people who have never heard me,) "That's a country instrument. you can't play classical music on it." I've been told it's not even a real instrument, but more of a musical toy.

Two different college music professors and a well known jazz guitarist have refused to even listen to my CDs, because they "know" that I "must have" played the music country style.

This is personal for me. I'm being stymied in my attempt to introduce the steel to the classical music community by the "it's a country instrument" stereotype.

I’ve heard your stuff, Mike. What you are doing with your music should be making headlines. The pedal steel brings an entirely different texture to classical rep, just as it does with jazz and rock. The difficulty of playing the instrument may be forgivably lost on critics and scholars, but they are missing the more important point.

And I’m not really joking about my efforts perpetuating the stereotype. At this point, I simply don’t have the skill to do otherwise. But I’m working on it

I know a lot of young people that are this way exactly.. Always broke, but blowing money on $5 coffee, $5 "energy drinks" several times a day, fast food daily,

Back when I began to rejoin the human race, or at least pay some attention to people outside of my own little (semi-old people) niche, I was really shocked by the number of "young" people who don't even know how to cook... "young" meaning under 35 years old?!? Like, stymied by the complexities of a peanut butter and jelly sandwich? A lot of "broke" people have absolutely no clue that to have money, you don't just need to get it, you might ought to try to keep it for a bit?

I'm not sure how/when/why it happened, but it can't possibly be true in most other places. I guess it's the insidious creep of getting used to "time payments" that make it possible to buy things you can't pay for. But even so, a broke person without a loaf of bread, but with a $250-monthly McDonalds habit, isn't going to get much sympathy from me.
(All Together Now): "But I'm hungry right now! WAAH!"

That's a workable PSG every six months! <-<-(went all topical again..YAY!)

When I'm really getting my obnox on, I like to ask people how long it would take to actually wear out, and need to start replacing, ALL of their clothing? You kinda have to tiptoe around women's shoes, obviously. Not IN them, just AROUND them.

Mike Perlowin wrote:There are a a couple of places where I can play. But there are also some where they won't let me, because they are convinced that the steel can only play country and even though the people involved have never heard me or any of my recordings, they have decided that the steel would be inappropriate for their facilities.

I've been told (by people who have never heard me,) "That's a country instrument. you can't play classical music on it." I've been told it's not even a real instrument, but more of a musical toy.

Wonder what they'd think if you played classical on a "Fiddle"?

Telecaster = country guitar... Yet Jimmy Page used one to record all but one song on Led Zep I.
Oh yeah, and Fender makes a Muddy Waters model - didn't he tour with Hank Williams???

I guess Saxophone is a Jazz instrument so Yakety Sax must be a Jazz tune....

Ignorance and Arrogance make a poor combination.

Brian Hollands wrote:
Fender makes a Muddy Waters model - didn't he tour with Hank Williams???

Muddy Waters and Hank Williams? How could that be?

Just my sarcasm

here's some hope. a new group called the milk carton kids have a lot of steel on their songs and have a steel player with their tour.

Richard Sinkler wrote:
I don't believe it was because of the synth. It was just the "evolution" of the songwriters, producers, money grubbers at the record company. I hear way more guitar in country these days than synths.

Add to your list: Brad Paisley, Reba McIntire, Joe Diffie, Vince Gill, Luke Bryan, Josh Turner, Martina McBride, and the list goes on. There are many artists out their that carry a steel guitar on tour.

Sorry should've clarified, by synth I meant more protools and less in studio bands. And by current artists I meant folks still on the radio. Everyone on your list is great but most of them are definitely "classics" today. We're in the Florida Georgia Line world now

Also (rant inbound), young people blowing money on car and phones? As a committed car enthusiast, we see thinkpieces all the time lamenting Millennial indifference to cars and car culture. I've certainly spent (probably 10s of) thousands on car parts in my career, but I assure you my friends are the exception. Most of us are in STEM or business and are well above the median income for our age group. Contrast that with my girlfriend who does well but is definitely closer to average, and she was aghast at what I spent on my basic PSG (thankfully she doesn't know the full cost of my racing addiction). She also doesn't own a car and has zero desire to. Even if you're clearing $60k or so, a $500+/month student loan payment takes a pretty big chunk out of the discretionary spending. I would know, I paid mine for a decade. The loans are a complete financial albatross even if you have a decent job. And if you don't have a decent job, or didn't finish your degree, its like dragging a boat anchor.

Phones? All my friends upgrade every couple years, usually when the battery starts failing. There's little reason to go get new phones now. Its not like the initial iphones when it was a tremendous happening. They are all basically the same and nobody cares.

Food? Everyone does enjoy eating out, but its not at McDonalds. I hear the coffee thing from Boomers all the time but even $5 every day is $150 a month, that's not exactly the difference between wealth and poverty.

Maybe things are different away from the coast, but I spend a lot of time in the midwest and haven't noticed a dramatic variation in habits. (rant over)

So yeah, $1500 or so to try something out is a pretty serious commitment. How many folks on here would be going to the credit card if they got a surprise $1500 bill?

David Mason wrote:Back when I began to rejoin the human race, or at least pay some attention to people outside of my own little (semi-old people) niche, I was really shocked by the number of "young" people who don't even know how to cook... "young" meaning under 35 years old?!? Like, stymied by the complexities of a peanut butter and jelly sandwich? A lot of "broke" people have absolutely no clue that to have money, you don't just need to get it, you might ought to try to keep it for a bit?

For giggles: https://www.reddit.com/r/HighQualityGif ... verything/

David Mason wrote:

I know a lot of young people that are this way exactly.. Always broke, but blowing money on $5 coffee, $5 "energy drinks" several times a day, fast food daily,

Back when I began to rejoin the human race, or at least pay some attention to people outside of my own little (semi-old people) niche, I was really shocked by the number of "young" people who don't even know how to cook... "young" meaning under 35 years old?!? Like, stymied by the complexities of a peanut butter and jelly sandwich? A lot of "broke" people have absolutely no clue that to have money, you don't just need to get it, you might ought to try to keep it for a bit?

One-third of adults in the US are obese. Young people haven’t exactly had great examples to follow in the generations that have raised them, regarding cooking and eating habits. Same with discretionary spending habits, but that topic gets political in a hurry.

Generation gaps may explain differences in mainstream pop music fancy, but they don’t redefine great music. There are certainly more great musicians now than there ever have been, young and old, including steel players. They are just no longer appearing every Wednesday through Sunday at your local Honky Tonk Bar Association, like they did in the old days (Waaaaaah!)

Nicolas said:

Sorry should've clarified, by synth I meant more protools and less in studio bands. And by current artists I meant folks still on the radio. Everyone on your list is great but most of them are definitely "classics" today. We're in the Florida Georgia Line world now Sad

Makes ya wanna jump off a cliff, don't it?

The generation gap on this forum has always been fascinating to me. I get to learn about the middle-aged-to-elderly perception of millennials and why they fail. This is also an opportunity for the baby-boomers to step outside of their bubble and learn about the millennials' perception of them and their place in history.

I'm gen-X. I was able to get an education without incurring crippling student debt. My wife, a millennial with a master's degree from a private university, graduated with decades of loan payments in front of her. I have a solid career as a software developer and she owns her own successful business. We don't have kids and save thousands of $$ by being completely car-free (Portland has an excellent biking and public transportation infrastructure.) We don't have an expensive coffee habit, don't smoke/vape, drink very moderately and are extremely frugal. We reuse everything. I built a patio out of granite discards that counter-top cutters threw in the rubbish bin, for example. We upgrade our phones about every 5 years. We buy close to everything second hand, mostly out of principle. All that and yet, we would balk at spending $3k on a pedal steel guitar. I own a beat-up Emmons student model that I bought for $800.

Aside from that student debt, we spend almost 1/3 of our income on our mortgage. We have a modest house and consider ourselves very fortunate to find one within the Portland core that we could afford without spending 1/2 of our income, as quite a few of our friends do. We could have moved to the suburbs for a slightly cheaper house, but the cost of two cars would have outweighed those savings. The rest of our money goes into retirement and the rising cost of the basic necessities needed for a healthy lifestyle.

Now, back to that generation gap. My parents made a LOT less than my wife and I, adjusted for inflation. There was only one earner in the family. Yet, they spent 1/5 of that modest income on their mortgage. We had a five cars by the time my sister and I were old enough to drive. None of those were "new" cars, but the point stills stands.

They had pensions and affordable healthcare. The 1% were taxed at 70% during that nostalgic booming America of the mid-20th century because preventing silo-ed wealth was common sense at the time. Then somebody screamed "DE-REGULATION" and they were all suckered into voting for unabated capitalism and short-sighted greed. Perhaps that's an oversimplification, but this thread is all about generalizing.

The vast majority of white, male baby-boomers entered the work-force not having to compete with minorities or women. They've convinced themselves that they did it all by themselves and owe nothing to the system that was custom built for them. Now the system has changed and those kids are just too lazy to make ends meet and also have a collection of jukeboxes, Harley's and pedal steels while driving over-sized gas-guzzling pickup trucks with a fishing boat in tow.

In my years of living in the UK, I met a lot of American expats, many of them with plans to retire there permanently. A common reason was that when you plan for retirement in the UK, you are thinking about how many trips you'll be able to take to Spain in your twilight years. In the US, you save up out of fear as you know that your healthcare bills can completely wipe you out, no matter how much you have in your 401k. You might even lose that house you've spent 30 years paying off.

There is much truth and some misconception in your post, James. It is difficult to discuss some of these issues outside of a political context, and we’re not going to get very far in that regard. It is important to recognize all the factors that play into what may seem like a fairly focused micro-crisis like the fading of steel guitar from mainstream pop music. We will only scratch the surface with any single comment, which will almost certainly raise a point of contention with at least one other opinion-holder. It’s a good discussion, and I’m glad it has gotten beyond some of the more curmudgeonly superficialities.

Be it the overall topic of millennials or the amount of PSG being played or anything else, the governing concept is REALITY. It's not always the way we want it, it's not always how some people would have you think.

Nicholas Babin wrote: ...I hear the coffee thing from Boomers all the time but even $5 every day is $150 a month, that's not exactly the difference between wealth and poverty.

[...]

So yeah, $1500 or so to try something out is a pretty serious commitment....

Well, yeah, goldurnit! It would mean making your own coffee for 10, maybe even 11, months!



--Al Evans

Love that's real, not fade away.

James Mayer wrote:...We upgrade our phones about every 5 years. We buy close to everything second hand, mostly out of principle. All that and yet, we would balk at spending $3k on a pedal steel guitar. I own a beat-up Emmons student model that I bought for $800.

James, you are really to be commended for that mindset! But I'll go out on a limb and say that that's probably not typical of most young people. Most want it all, and they want it now (It's not retired people buying all that stuff I mentioned earlier.)

I was a little bit taken aback at a recent post that had what some would consider a basket-case guitar for sale. To me, it would have easily made a good 3+4 "player" guitar. A few said they'd strip it down and recover because the 'mica was chipped. Oh boo-hoo. GOD forbid that anyone should have to play a 40 or 50 year-old guitar that didn't look like it was brand new. Many people complain about their debts and forget that they are the ones that created that debt. Can't get by on one job? Get a second one! That's still not enough? Then get a third job (that's what I did for several years after a divorce).

Life is just an endless series of choices. A lot of people just make the wrong ones.

Donny, I'm curious. What decade was it when you worked multiple jobs? This is not an argument and I have no idea of your age.

Here's the thing, if my wife and I decided to move to the country or out on the Oregon coast, I could tele-commute from Portland. If I lost that job, for whatever reason, I'd be paying over $2k per month in healthcare insurance for two people. Locally, there probably won't be any option other than stringing together multiple part-time jobs. I'd be willing to do it, but it's just not sustainable as only full-time positions provide an "affordable" healthcare plan.

That $2k per month premium comes with a $5k out-of-pocket deductible that resets every year. After that, the insurance policy pays 80% if they don't deny your claims. It's pretty easy, these days, to run up a 6-figure hospital bill of which you now owe 20% of. Now, you have less income at the same time as you have much higher expenses. You have three 4-figure bills every month because of rent and student loans. Eventually, you either go bankrupt or you move back to a better job market. We are not as "free" as everyone so proudly claims as we are dependent on our employers for an essential need. It turns out that, while our lives are a series of choices, the choices are drying up in the supposed land of opportunity.

I have a feeling, that's not the situation you were dealing with when you worked multiple jobs to make ends meet. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I tend to give the kids a break because I think we'd all think differently if we were set up to fail and were left feeling pretty hopeless about the future. It can be a self-esteem buster. The despair over climate change is also taking it's toll, to be sure.

I've had it good, so far, but I'm pretty sure if I was to graduate from Uni right now, I'd be moving in with my parents and postponing my life for a decade while I pay down loans and try not to get sick or injured.

Donny Hinson wrote:James, you are really to be commended for that mindset! But I'll go out on a limb and say that that's probably not typical of most young people. Most want it all, and they want it now (It's not retired people buying all that stuff I mentioned earlier.)

Life is just an endless series of choices. A lot of people just make the wrong ones.

I think I know the type of person you're talking about. The people my age I know like that have already 'missed the boat' on having a financially independent and stable life, and so don't have much to salvage anyway. They've already lost hope... or else never had much to begin with. Many of them were raised by baby boomer parents who were able to miss opportunity after opportunity and make mistake after mistake in life and still be okay... and so imparted that same mentality on their kids.

The pedal steel guitar is an amazing and incredibly versatile instrument (a baby of an instrument) which, in the right hands is capable of so much music - so much so that we, including the masters, have barely touched what it is truly capable of. It will be around as long as there are people.

Curt Trisko wrote: Many of them were raised by baby boomer parents who were able to miss opportunity after opportunity and make mistake after mistake in life and still be okay... and so imparted that same mentality on their kids.

I think that's attributing a bit more malice to the Boomers than is right in this situation. I think there's many that don't understand the confluence of factors that allowed even the average or below among them to be reasonably successful. If you don't understand that you were born into a fortunate situation, its tough to prepare your kids to expect something different.

I see this even with my stepdad, whom I love dearly and who is one of my go to folks for life advice. We struggled with our relationship a lot in my early 20s. He never went to college and built a great career and retired in upper management. He was a little apathetic about me going to college and was downright angry when I had to move home after I graduated (class of 2009, so I graduated into the nadir of the recession). While I was job hunting he'd be very disappointed that I'd spend the day on the couch "surfing the web." It wasn't until he quit his job a few year later and attempted to find something else that he started to understand how things had changed. Despite 30 years of experience he had a tough time getting an interview not having a degree. He took a career path that is largely unavailable now, and it finally started to catch up with him. The struggle to find something made him appreciate the difficulties of his kids more. If he'd never quit his last job and retired instead, he might never have known the difference.

I saw this in the white collar world too. All the old timers at the large petrochemical company I used to work at would tsk tsk the younger guys all the time. "How do you have so much debt, we worked our way through school!" Please direct me to these $40k/year summer internships so I can too! I didn't even make $40k in 6 months with an actual engineering degree and experience until 3 years ago.

Finally, the stereotypical example. If you worked a line for 30 years and could afford a house, bass boat, and RV, everyone is gonna seem lazy now. But, I can hustle hard 80 hours a week at "low skill" jobs slinging coffee or whatever and not even come close to the lifestyle my hypothetical Dad had working a 40 hour week.

Back to the topic at hand though. Regarding the $150/month and saving for a year to get to $1500. That's a year of saving and hoping nothing else comes up. That's a year I'm not playing and learning and spreading the instrument. Sure, that's "wanting it now" but we're talking about barriers to entry and cost is absolutely one of them, especially when there's dramatically cheaper options.

After sleeping on it, I think we (including myself) have been going down a bit of a rabbit hole by focusing on the (real) issue of financial feasibility. I think the mistake we made is by lumping everyone into the same category.

If a person has say, $2500 to spend without financial consequence, they'll spend it on what they value. If you've just decided that pedal steel is your thing, you'll spend it on that. If your #1 hobby is tricking out ricers (with music never entering the equation), you're probably not going to sink it into PSG, and so it's a moot point whether or not you could afford a setup.

So this brings us back to the point of the steel guitar not being an option when considering hobbies. In my opinion, this is mostly likely due to the lack of exposure to the steel guitar in music that folks listen to. We can bellyache all we want about the demise of classic country and western swing, but folks develop interest in instruments used in the music they listen to.

If you limit PSG to classic country, then you're limiting the set of young potential players to
1) Only kids who like classic country of the "correct" subgenre
2) Of those kids, only the ones who pick up on the sound of the steel
3) Of those kids, they like it more than guitar, bass, drums, etc.
4) Of those kids, we loop back around to the ones who have parents who can afford a setup.

If steel guitar is used in all genres of music (Yes, even the dreaded pop and rap), you've just cut out one of the most limiting filters, and suddenly you have an onslaught of kids who hear the steel, think "whoa, that sounds crazy!" and want to learn it.

Nicholas Babin wrote:

Curt Trisko wrote: Many of them were raised by baby boomer parents who were able to miss opportunity after opportunity and make mistake after mistake in life and still be okay... and so imparted that same mentality on their kids.

I think that's attributing a bit more malice to the Boomers than is right in this situation.

That's true. My apologies, boomers.

Susan Alcorn wrote:The pedal steel guitar is an amazing and incredibly versatile instrument (a baby of an instrument) which, in the right hands is capable of so much music - so much so that we, including the masters, have barely touched what it is truly capable of. It will be around as long as there are people.

I agree, 100%. What is fading away, or perhaps has already faded away, is classic country. Music has changed over the years. That includes all music in all genres; country, rock, jazz, etc. Songs like SG Rag and A Way TO Survive are no longer relevant. But our instrument is finding new homes, and artists like Susan are getting lots of attention outside of the steel guitar community.