Does our focus on the past limit the appeal of Lap Steel

[Nicholai Steindler]

This is a Forum for enthusiasts, not casual players. For instance, I play the mandolin but I would never dream of participating in a Mandolin Forum, if one exists.

Huh. Maybe I should go away now.

There are forums for people like me who make objects out of glass, everyone seems welcome to chime in and knowledge is quite free and plentiful and new ideas are looked upon as being a great thing. I would be welcomed as, say, a Basil among such people with my pedigree. I stay away because everyone just steals each others ideas and fellates each others punty's (glass joke), what fun is that? There is much talk of next generation and moving it into new territory with new work, but they miss the point, they are hobbyists by excluding themselves to such a niche, not true artists.

[Steinar Gregertsen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78PhdqAd ... re=related

maybe lap steel needs a stian carstensen?



Uli

Stian is crazy, and one of the most multi talented musicians I know of. And - he's quite good at the steel guitar (in addition to the other 1739 instruments he plays... )

[Alan Brookes]

When one uses the word contemporary one immediately runs into trouble. Literally, con-temp-orary means "at the same time", so Shakespeare's contemporaries would be the playwrites writing at the same time as he was. Benny Goodman's contemporaries would be people like Glen Miller and Duke Ellington.
What that means is that the definition of contemporary music is constantly changing.

[Bob Simons]

Congratulations to this whole thread for a real discussion of the problem. I think the simple solution is to regard the forum as the "Olde Tyme Country Steel Club" see it and use it for what it is, and pursue creative applications of steel guitar elsewhere.is issue

I've tried for year to interject this issue into other threads- to no avail. I've commented often that the St. Louis show I've attended frequently and which seems to be the bench mark of steel expositions entirely ignores everything but white, traditional country (with a brief node to old fashioned niche styles like jazz standards and Hawaiian music.

It is worth noting that Fessenden, for example, apparently doesn't dare mention, picture or refer to its most famous player in St. Louis. (A black man who does not play country music.) I noticed as well, however, that the most spirited audience response to any stage performers last year was to an out-of-character, tough dobro rendition of a blues tune! And in past years it was to Sarah Jory playing blues- not country! (Although some of that response was likely pandering to the fact that she's a girl.) I've also noted that the steel guitar audience is possibly the rudest I've experienced when presented with something new. THat hall can empty faster than a fire drill!

In short- there is much to be learned and appreciated here, but the forum does not promote modern music or react politely much less kindly to anything different. Steel isn't dead or dying. The Forum is simply old folks treasuring their favorite music to the exclusion of everything else.

[Mike Neer]

Although I can understand your frustrations, Bob, I think you're painting with broad strokes. There are nearly 10,000 members of this forum, certainly all of them aren't "simply old folks treasuring their favorite music to the exclusion of everything else." I would guarantee that there are many like myself who came from the outside not having any clue about how to tune a steel guitar, let alone play it, because it wasn't part of the culture that we grew up in.

I can't speak for everyone else, but I decided to stay a while and listen to what folks had to say. I can also say that my musical interests in playing lap steel guitar were in the avant-garde and very forward thinking, and to some degree still are. I wouldn't feel the need for approval of anyone here in pursuing artistic endeavors of a different nature, but I respect the input of most people and even those with a much narrower mindset than my own, because I can learn from them, too. I will always be a student of the steel guitar--this I will readily admit.

[Bob Simons]

Of course I'm generalizing a bit. You and I are both here regularly. However, I think my perception is correct. And again, to be fair, I've gained a great deal of information, materials, music appreciation, and treasured personal encounters with great musicians- all as a result of the Forum. It is to be commended in that respect.

I listen to people agonize about the slow death of steel guitar on the Forum. My point is simply that this music may pass into obscurity except for its most memorable moments, like all no longer timely "folk" music. That is not a tragedy. It has happened to more worthy genres as well. Steel guitar, however, is not passing into obscurity- only in the estimation of those who will listen to and support nothing but what was done in the past- and the modern use of the instrument could use their support too!

[Andy Volk]

Does our focus on the past limit the appeal of Lap Steel

Yes.

[Twayn Williams]

Does our focus on the past limit the appeal of Lap Steel

Yes.

+1

If you want to get steel guitar out to the Masses then you need to be playing modern pop music, NOT cutting edge avante guard or jazz or whatever. What we need is the Hendrix of the steel -- which DOESN'T mean playing Hendrix riffs on the steel You will of course note that Hendrix sang...

[Mike Neer]

+1

If you want to get steel guitar out to the Masses then you need to be playing modern pop music, NOT cutting edge avante guard or jazz or whatever. What we need is the Hendrix of the steel -- which DOESN'T mean playing Hendrix riffs on the steel You will of course note that Hendrix sang...

Well, you've got Ben Harper. Do you buy his records? I bought his first 5. In fact, I bought just about everything lap steel related I could get my hands on.

There are already Hendrixes of the steel guitar. Even guitar music is not selling these days unless it's someone like John Mayer. The only thing that's going to keep people interested in steel guitar is steel guitarists playing their instruments WELL.

[Paul DiMaggio]

I don't think that the steel guitar's supposed decline is due to some people clinging to the music of the past.I think that if there is a decline it has more to do with the difficulty of learning to play this damned instrument.The people today[young and old]want everything to be immediate and steel guitar isn't. However,if you look at the membership growth of this forum, even just from when I joined in Dec of '08,it is averaging over 100 per month.That doesn't sound like declining interest.The popularity of steel guitar probably will not be meteoric but I'm sure it will continue to grow.

[Mike Neer]

Paul, I believe that is more akin to the truth. I know that I wasted a few years trying to learn how to play by trying to do it my way and ultimately realized I shouldn't have. I thought my 30+ years of guitar playing would make it easy: wrong.

For me, David Lindley was the gateway drug. I will always appreciate him for that, even though I've tried to get as far away from that kind of playing as possible. That's why I say people playing the instrument well will always inspire others to want to play it, simple as that.

Now if more steel players would actually put bands together instead of Band In A Box....

[Twayn Williams]

Well, you've got Ben Harper. Do you buy his records? I bought his first 5. In fact, I bought just about everything lap steel related I could get my hands on.

There are already Hendrixes of the steel guitar. Even guitar music is not selling these days unless it's someone like John Mayer. The only thing that's going to keep people interested in steel guitar is steel guitarists playing their instruments WELL.

I wrote:
"What we need is the Hendrix of the steel -- which DOESN'T mean playing Hendrix riffs on the steel "

In other words, Hendrix was an innovator on the electric guitar, coaxing never before heard sounds out of it AND it was in a popular music style that he ALSO pushed in new directions. He was the lead man and of course due to the dictates of the pop music market he sang. This is what made him and his music and his style such a potent force.

Neither Randolph nor Harper have ALL of these qualities though they are both fine musicians and are definitely proponents for steel in new contexts.

[Mike Neer]

I wrote:
"What we need is the Hendrix of the steel -- which DOESN'T mean playing Hendrix riffs on the steel "

In other words, Hendrix was an innovator on the electric guitar, coaxing never before heard sounds out of it AND it was in a popular music style that he ALSO pushed in new directions. He was the lead man and of course due to the dictates of the pop music market he sang. This is what made him and his music and his style such a potent force.

Neither Randolph nor Harper have ALL of these qualities though they are both fine musicians and are definitely proponents for steel in new contexts.

Well, one thing Jimi had was that his music was very sexy and so was his stage presence, something we can say is pretty non-existent in steel players.

Personally, I see the steel guitar as the ultimate back-up instrument. It doesn't have to be the main focus to make it appealing. Great music has to come first--great steel playing can help deliver it, but it ain't gonna look sexy.

It's funny, though, I recently shot a music video with a band and I think some of you will be shocked when you see it, and that makes me fuzzy inside. I put on my best "sleazy guy" act to much approval from the director and band leader. So if you see a video with some guy standing behind an old Fender T-8, winking and flicking his tongue and dancing, it's probably me.

[James Mayer]

I can't believe I've managed to stay out of this thread as long as I have. I've learned a lot from this forum and owe thanks to many here. However, I don't feel like I have much in common with the majority of players here because of one fundamental difference. I don't play "steel guitar". I see the steel guitar as an instrument, not a genre or category of music. I hang out here hoping to get turned onto someone doing something fresh and original.........but that's only happened a few times in however many years (4?) I've tuned in. It's mostly rehashing and telling newbies to respect/mimic their elders before attempting to break new ground.

This isn't unique to steel guitar genres either. I have some bluegrassy friends who feel the same way. "The codgers are in control and they have a tight grip". Someone (Basil?) started a thread here, recently, about "the right way to play steel" and mentioned competitions where the judges score points based on accuracy and respect for the composition. Bluegrass "picking" competitions are the same way, or so I've heard. Don't get me started on playing classical. This sort of thing is a huge turnoff to a lot of players. It's divisive and it's only point is to stop progress and momentarily lessen the insecurites felt by those running the show. As if their view of what is "correct" wouldn't be completely different if the technology for recording and distributing music had emerged 50 years earlier (or later).

I don't think that the steel guitar's supposed decline is due to some people clinging to the music of the past.I think that if there is a decline it has more to do with the difficulty of learning to play this damned instrument.The people today[young and old]want everything to be immediate and steel guitar isn't. However,if you look at the membership growth of this forum, even just from when I joined in Dec of '08,it is averaging over 100 per month.That doesn't sound like declining interest.The popularity of steel guitar probably will not be meteoric but I'm sure it will continue to grow.

I don't think this is correct. Every instrument is difficult to play well and most are more difficult than a lap steel for a complete beginner. It definately doesn't require the athleticism that some instruments or styles do. Flamenco (guitar) has plenty of young stars, as well as gypsy jazz, bluegrass and "shredding". The lap steel really suffers from a lack of "cool" heroes, however. It doesn't fetch the chicks like some other instruments do. While I don't think Ben Harper's playing is anything special, he is "cool" and I'm sure that sells a lot of Ashers.

[Mike Neer]

...However, I don't feel like I have much in common with the majority of players here because of one fundamental difference. I don't play "steel guitar". I see the steel guitar as an instrument, not a genre or category of music. I hang out here hoping to get turned onto someone doing something fresh and original.........but that's only happened a few times in however many years (4?) I've tuned in. It's mostly rehashing and telling newbies to respect/mimic their elders before attempting to break new ground.

This isn't unique to steel guitar genres either. I have some bluegrassy friends who feel the same way. "The codgers are in control and they have a tight grip". Someone (Basil?) started a thread here, recently, about "the right way to play steel" and mentioned competitions where the judges score points based on accuracy and respect for the composition. Bluegrass "picking" competitions are the same way, or so I've heard. Don't get me started on playing classical. This sort of thing is a huge turnoff to a lot of players. It's divisive and it's only point is to stop progress and momentarily lessen the insecurites felt by those running the show. As if their view of what is "correct" wouldn't be completely different if the technology for recording and distributing music had emerged 50 years earlier (or later).

No one is stopping anyone from creating any kind of music they want with a steel guitar. The only one who is stopping them is themselves. There is no old guard, or "secret society" which holds back players from being successful with music created on a steel guitar. All this talk about breaking ground...come on seriously, you can count ground breakers in modern music on your fingers. But if one is going to do it without becoming accomplished on the instrument (I'm not even measuring it up against any standard, just whether one has the ability to play with conviction, both musically and technically), he can't expect to be embraced by his peers. There are a lot of players here with decades of experience and excellence in creating music and certainly you can understand their reluctance to see the instrument just become another sound effect. That is why they share openly, to proliferate the steel guitar's growth. But what would he care what they thought anyway?

James, most everyone here sees the steel guitar as an instrument, not a genre. Yes, I've been puzzled by some comments steel players have made about singers, guitarists, etc., but I just take it with a grain of salt. Even you asked for advice a few weeks ago on how a steel player would approach your song. If you don't study what a steel player plays, how can you expect to know?

It is too easy to fall into the trap of blaming others for our own shortcomings: I think it's called protecting our own self-image. I know I've done it in the past; not much good come of it.

[Steinar Gregertsen]

Well, one thing Jimi had was that his music was very sexy and so was his stage presence, something we can say is pretty non-existent in steel players.

You mean the sight of a middle-aged, slightly overweight man sitting on a stage fiddling with something in his lap isn't attractive to most women? Damn......

[Tom Pettingill]

Well, one thing Jimi had was that his music was very sexy and so was his stage presence, something we can say is pretty non-existent in steel players.

You mean the sight of a middle-aged, slightly overweight man sitting on a stage fiddling with something in his lap isn't attractive to most women? Damn......

LoL ... funny for sure, but relevant too. We need more steels designed for stand up playing so players can move around and be part of the show.

On the state of steel guitar in general, I've seen quite a bit of interest from more modern players, blues, rock, Americana, etc. I'd say about half of the steels I build go out in E or D.

[Roman Sonnleitner]

On the state of steel guitar in general, I've seen quite a bit of interest from more modern players, blues, rock, Americana, etc. I'd say about half of the steels I build go out in E or D.

Absolutely!

I see plenty of lap steel players on concert stages and in live videos, I'd say, there's actually a kind of renaissance of lap steel playing going on at the moment - or why would so many new models of lap steels suddenly appear on the market - and especially lap steels in the lower price range, which means, their manufacturers have to rely on mass sales?

Of course most of that renaissance is not in Hawaiian style lap steel playing, nor in groundbreaking avantgarde music, it's mainly in Americana, alt.country, roots rock bands, with very popular bands(within that genre) like Wilco (Nels Cline on LS), or Dave Alvin & The Guilty Women (featuring Cindy Cashdollar) incorporating that instrument.
Also, that renaissance is NOT about outstanding virtuosos players doing "lap steel music" - it's about BANDS including that instrument to make their SONGS sound even better - and while some of the regulars here may bemoan that, that's the way I prefer it - for me, music is all about the SONG, not about some virtuoso showing off, or doing groundbreaking stuff (but then, I've never been a fan of virtuoso "guitar heroes" on regular electric guitar, either, because usually the SONG suffers if all you get is solo noodling...)

[James Mayer]

James, most everyone here sees the steel guitar as an instrument, not a genre.

I disagree. If you go to a "guitar festival" you really don't know what you are getting. They don't exist without being more specific. If you go to a "steel guitar festival", you know what to expect.

Even you asked for advice a few weeks ago on how a steel player would approach your song. If you don't study what a steel player plays, how can you expect to know?

This is true. I never said the knowledge here is useless or not an worthy of learning. Every now and then I get the itch to work in a traditional part to a song. It only annoys me because it's so homogenous. Who is really going to say that this forum is diverse? This isn't the "steel guitar forum", it's the "steel guitar as it applies to three or four genres forum".

It is too easy to fall into the trap of blaming others for our own shortcomings: I think it's called protecting our own self-image. I know I've done it in the past; not much good come of it.

I didn't realize I had fallen into that trap. After re-reading my post, I understand why you wrote this. However, I don't really see the steel as something that affects how I think of myself. It's a tertiery instrument for me, not a point of pride. A sound effect, if you will. When I'm inspired to reach new heights, I will surely be aware of my new found shortcomings. Right now, I'm not blaming anyone for my playing as there is simply no reason to place blame.

I was just thinking about another time, recently, when I just shook my head after reading a post. Every time the Duesenberg steel (the one with the multibender and integrated capo) is mentioned here, someone inevitably pops up and says "for that money, why not just buy a pedal steel". Over email, I was scolded by a forumite for even looking into the multibender. At the same time, there will be posts about Georgeboards, SuperSlides, Ashers, Clinesmiths and a host of other high-end steels that costs as much or more yet have a lot less to offer in terms of features and innovations. Where are the posts about spending $3k on a polished board with strings attached?

I just don't see this as a very forward-thinking forum, in general. There are, of course, exceptions as this is a broad generalization.

[Thomas Ford]

I have to say this was an interesting read. As far as the young people out there playing this instrument, I have to say that a few years ago you would never see a Lap Steel in a music video. Today I have seen more and more Lap Steels than ever before. Example, Ben Harper,Josh Matheny,and the recent Tim Mcgraw video Southern Voice. I have also seen Miranda Lambert on an Awards show with a Lap Steel Player sitting right next to her up front in plain view. A recent Black Crows Soundstage show also featured some great Lap Steel Playing.I know this is not your traditional playing, but I think the instrument is in good hands and will make a comeback to the mainstream as with most things,people are always looking to bring back what once was.

[Mike Neer]

Mike "Slo-Mo" Brenner asked me to post this for him (Mike, I'm gonna pay the $5 for you and force you to post here)

"here's my 50 cents:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiPoGmU_d28

this is what a modern, young crowd grooving to lap steel-fronted music can look like. i've played some luaus and bluegrass at old age homes and retirement villages, and I can tell you, this is more fun. I love steel (old & new) more than anything but I'm not on some mission 'promoting the instrument'. anyone who says that is simply promoting themselves. my job is to rock the house and I try my best. hope you enjoy! peace, mike 'slo-mo' brenner"

[Bill McCloskey]

I would say we need more people like Mike "Slo-Mo" Brenner on the forum. Which is to a certain degree, the point.

[Mike Neer]

I disagree. If you go to a "guitar festival" you really don't know what you are getting. They don't exist without being more specific. If you go to a "steel guitar festival", you know what to expect.

Too bad you didn't come to the Steel Guitar Festival I put together in NY, you would have seen something much different.

[Richard Sevigny]

On the one hand this forum is a great resource for anyone wanting to learn about the steel guitar. Many are willing to share their years expertise and experience to help us beginners (I've been playing less than 5 years) advance technically.

On the other hand, there does seem to be a bit of a clannish attitude about the repertoire. I get the impression that if it's not Hawaiian or Western Swing, it's not respectable. Case in point: a few years back my teacher, Tim Tweedale, posted a Youtube video of his trio doing some soemwhat avant garde stuff. There were a few comments posted that basically said what he was doing was "noise". I still haven't decided whether those responses were either unprofessional or simply rude. (There's some irony here as Tim is a devoted student of the works of Jerry Byrd, Joaquin Murphy, and Jerry Douglas)

[Tom Cooper]

I started playing steel gtr in 06, and then there were no young people in the local music scene playing steel, now we have at least 4 serious young 20something guys playing. I love seeing it happen and always encourage them. I also testify on the practical joy of non pedal playing, and demonstrate it in my group I lead. I sing, play rhythm gtr, and take steel breaks on my 40's d-8(standing up of course) and rock out. I may not be exactly sexy, but standing at the steel while singing and playing gtr is visually stimulating at least somewhat more than a guy just sitting there, even if he is amazing. My ability on steel is still intermediate at best, but I get the job done and represent the steel guitar as good as I can. People love it. I get more offers than I can play. I almost always insist on standing to play steel now. Want to make sure people know whats making that cool sound! I play steel for myself in my own band because at the time there were hardly anyone playing it so I just decided to do it my damn self. Best thing I ever did. Steel guitar can do almost any kind of music. Thank God for the forum, you can find all styles here. I see it as universal, and growing in popularity every year. I almost dont want it to get too popular because then it will of course get watered down by some pop schlock overproduced etc... Maybe it's good that it is the way it is. I think it should be for the people it chooses and who choose it. All I know is I'm having the time of my life playing it!