The Steel Guitar Forum

Barry, you sound like a nice guy, so don't take this personally, but it seems to me that you are the one that is close-minded. You have told us how long you have played music, how well you play, how you make your living with music, etc, the implication being that because you have done these things, what you say is the truth. My impression: it sounds like you have a considerable amount of musical talent, and that has helped you learn, in spite of your poor technique. More power to you, but it sounds like you are saying; if you can do it, so can anyone else. I don’t agree, I think most of us need all the help we can get. Proper technique makes it easier to learn and easier to sound good.

You are a professional music teacher, but not a professional steel guitar teacher. Jeff Newman WAS a professional pedal steel guitar teacher, no doubt the most successful one ever. He taught thousands how to play pedal steel. Many former students are now professional musicians, many others, like me, have learned to play well enough to impress casual listeners, and get a gig once in a while. Face it, music, and learning pedal steel in particular, is easier for some folks. Talent is the difference. Jeff know that, and developed a system of teaching that made it possible for lots of people to learn, even those of us without much talent. To not recognize that, and give him credit for it, and to say that his methods were wrong, just because they don’t jibe with one’s personal experience is a mistake. How many pedal steel students have you had? How many are professional musicians today? All of us are entitled to our opinions, so I’ve just given mine. And I want to say thanks to Jeff Newman.

Knowledge is key.

It's important, when first interviewing a student, to find out what the student wants to accomplish with his lessons, and what you, as a teacher, are willing to accept and venture into.

If the student says "I want to play 'Crazy Arms' like Jimmy Day and 'Together Again' like Tom Brumley," I have an good idea where he's coming from, where he wants to go, and I'm confident I can get him there.

And if he says "I'm not really into *country* all that much, but steel is this really far-out sound and I want to play it in this alternative original music band I have," I know he has his own ideas about what he does or doesn't know about where he's going, and I suggest that I'm probably the wrong instructor for him. Lessons would be frustrating for me and financially draining for him with little satisfaction for either of us.

I can appreciate Barry's "I do it my way, and it's all good" approach. Barry's an experienced player and no doubt an excellent musician. So, no picks is cool. To quote Jerry Seinfeld "not that there's anything wrong with that..."

Hey, I've seen Buddy Emmons sometimes play without fingerpicks (first time: Oct 19, 1987... the stock market had just crashed and, depressed, I went to see Willie play in Austin. Big E was onstage.), though he wore a thumbpick, and I asked him "E... no picks?" He said "hey, whatever, ya know?"

And I will allow that if a player is experienced, accomplished, knows sh*t from Shinola about playing, and has a style of his own, variations from the accepted norm may and will probably occur and will be artistically valid. I'm gonna tell Big E he should wear picks? I don't think so!!

HOWEVER... someone who's been playing for a few months, comes to me for instruction, and says "my style doesn't require picks," I feel obligated to say "dude, I don't believe you have the experience or the wisdom to even HAVE a *style,* per se... but look, since you're paying me money to talk to you based on my experience, indulge me and try to see why the vast majority of the best players in the world wear picks. Then, later after you're on your third or fourth set of strings , maybe you can toss the picks under the bus."

A player with years behind the guitar making a choice is one thing; a new player seeking instruction should be listening to the accumulated experience of his teacher and those from whom the teacher learned, assuming his teacher HAS accumulated experience.

A cliche' about "standing on the shoulders of giants" comes to mind.

Indulge me with a little anecdote, if you will.

There's a player here in Austin, a really good one, too. Years ago he was an experienced guitarist in a band, but just starting out with an old funky 8-string guitar with a cockamamie tuning he'd come up with. I offered him assistance and he said "nah, I'm doing my own thing, man." Okay, I thought, no biggie, and I went on my way.

I saw him at a party several years ago and he was playing a modern guitar and really rockin' with it. He came up to me and said "Herb, man, I owe you an apology. I totally blew you off a few years ago when you offered help. But later I got some of your material from the Forum, and suddenly the light bulb came on for me. Then it all made sense." I told him, "don't thank me, thank Jimmy Day and Buddy Emmons. They're the guys that created the stuff my material teaches." He's now among the best players in town.

I think that in the beginning, steel guitar is a humbling instrument, and it takes a little humility to get past those very early stages. Then, when you've reached a level of competence and experience, you really have something to be proud of.

I'm feeling that this topic, for me, is really heading into redundancy of opinion. Each of us has his or her own learning and teaching style. I think I've pretty clearly stated mine.

Herb out. Live long and prosper.

Great post, Herb. Thanks.

Bill -- I don't have poor technique. I just have never held a magazine under my right arm while playing because I discovered long ago that the secret was to let the arms relax, just as Herb says. As for choosing not to use picks (I can play just fine with them, in case you are interested) that is alternative technique, not "poor" technique. I'm getting kind of tired of the constant rain of personal insults when all I am trying to do is to get people to think about what makes a good music teacher. I am sure Jeff Newman was a great teacher, but all the rest of us (teachers and students) should contantly be re-evaluating what we do and how we do it to see if we can improve ourselves. If you call that close-minded, then I don't know what to say.

I just re-read this whole post last night -- took about an hour. Fascinating discussion, really. Perhaps Bill should do that too?

Barry, in my opinion, it's poor technique, for LEARNING. I'm sure you play just fine. The gist of your posts, as I see it, is "anyone can learn, doing it any way they feel like doing it" I don't agree, and I don't consider that a personal insult. If you do, I'm sorry. I call it a difference of opinion. Happy New Year to you.

Am I the only one who is just amazed that there is still anything new, or helpful to be said on this subject? It's not just Herb, it's all heading towards redundancy. After a while all I can hear is "BLAAH, BLAAH, BLAAH, BLAAH!".

And that includes what I just said too!

If Herb, Bill Moore and Barry could have made their last post first, we could have prevented 6 pages of blah blah blah. Right Bobby?

Tunings with more than 5 strings per octave sound better without fingerpicks. I've never been able to play without a thumb pick though.

I'm pretty sure that he's the exception to "the rule", but Bobbe Seymour makes his guitars sing and he just uses a thumb-pick, no finger-picks. Check out his videos on You Tube.

Wouldn't it be easier to evaluate the wisdom of any particular player's technical suggestions/postings if we could see and hear them play? A picture (video) is worth a thousand words.

A truly legendary player and educator did a seminar in my town when I was first starting to play. When I asked him why he used three fingerpicks, he rather acidly asked me how many fingers I had... with a strong implication that using less than 3 (and a thumbpick) was wasted potential. I spent several months really struggling to integrate the extra pick, extend my chord voicings, alter my fingering patterns- before deciding it just wasn't for me.

It interests me to this day that it seemed to make no difference to him that his style was largely fat 6th tuning extensions, and I was trying to play more traditional stuff on E9 on a Maverick.

I don't know if all the time invested was really worth it, but the questioning and experimentation really did help me forge my own style.

I think some of the debate here may revolve around the ability or inclination of a student to even know what the right questions are when starting out, and the ability of a teacher or mentor to separate their own personal style and prejudices from the teaching process.

One of the things Jeff Newman really seemed to concentrate on was getting the most people possible able and interested in playing the instrument they so loved, and that's a laudable thing. The seminar and class format is more amenable to a one-size-fits-all approach. I never got to study with Jeff one-on-one, but I would have liked to have seen how his approach differed there.

well i never get on the forum much and voice my opinion but in this case i will have to say i met jeff at st louis steel convention about a year before he had the tragic accident. i went to his seminar talked to him and as far as i"m concerned he was a great person and i have a lot of his material and it has helped me . as far as his way of teaching goes everybody cant hold their hand like jeff i will agree with that , but that has nothing to do with knowledge. jeff could jump off a double 10 on to a 12 stringer and was great on both. thats not an easy task. and knocking other players will gat you no where. if a guy is a great player give him credit because you can bet he put a lotta hours in practicing. jeff will allways be remembered by me and he was one of my favorites. how do you think his wife fran feels right now if she read this.

Here's my last word on this thread: I'm going to buy some of Herb's instructional material. And if I ever get down to Austin and he's still teaching, I'll buy some lessons too. Because I know I've got a lot to learn, and I like Herb's style a lot...

Well Barry, go easy on Herb, and you do know, he won't be cracking your knuckles with a ruler!

Heck, I'd try your no pick method, but I'd have no skin left on my fingers after the first few minutes.

If you hear a steel player who is getting good tone, and is striking the strings accurately to play the riffs he wants, how can anyone argue with success? I think that teachers try to use the methods and forms that will produce the highest degree of success. Jeff Newman was a very successful teacher for some obvious reason.

Fred, Amen.