The Steel Guitar Forum

Steve said

If I had a raw beginner I would teach them about tuning, wearing picks, changing strings etc, and a song they want to learn thats not to complicated just to get the mechanics of playing in their head.

And then:
-Learn what a scale is
-Learn what a key is,
-Learn the appropriate major scale for a key and learn to play it over a I IV V,
-Learn the harmonized scale,
-apply all of this to Improvising over a chord progression so it ties into the real world

its sounds like reasonable way to go as long as
you don't try to learn/teach it in a week

Steve, i have always liked the way you explain many things

Thanks you all very much for your replies. Steve, I think you in particular are getting very close to what I am talking about. I'm at work at the moment but will be closely reading all of your posts tonight.
Cheers,
Matt

guys
let me say this about Steve

a while back i had an awful time trying to understand the circle of 5ths

Steve worked with me for 3-5 days until
he somehow got it to click for me

he is someone you can indeed listen to
he has a great way of explaning many things

we may not always agree, but he is a great teacher

The best newbie advice I've recieved recently is this: Practice the grips of the major and minor triads and their inversions until they are second nature before getting too excited about trying to learn a bunch of new songs. A triad is simply the 1st,3rd and 5th notes of a scale. ex. C-1,D-2,E-3,F-4,G-5,A-6,B-7,C-8. The 1,3,5 notes of a major scale will give you a major triad, ex. c,e,g for a Cmaj chord. The inversions are simply the same three notes in different order, ex. c,e,g - e,g,c - g,c,e -still the same major chord C. These are the "grips" folks refer too. Same rules go for minor chords/scales/triads. ex. c,eb,g, and so on. So, on each fret, depending on your tuning and the number of strings you have on your guitar, you will have at least three different ways to play your major and minor triads without using any pedals and levers at all. Six possibilities for two chords all on the same fret. These should be practised until they are second nature, thus making learning any song much easier. Later you can add 6th, 7th, b7th, 9th, 11, +11, and 13th (and more) tones of the scales to the triads for some very beautiful chords and progressions, but nail the basic 1,3,5 triads and their respective inversions first. In the beginning, your mind can only process so much information at once. By getting the grips down, you can pretty much let your picking hand go on autopilot and use the old noggin' to worry about where the bar, pedals and levers are going. I hope this helps someone, it has certainly made a world of difference in my playing, appreciation and understanding of steel guitar.

I'm not good at remembering names, but Steve, Richard, and many others. Thanks for joining in on the help to others. That's contributing tons of your time. Trust me, I know how time consuming simply writing things can be. But in the end result, if only a few really get it, then it's all worth it. I'd appreciate it if you'd all stick around. I know this isn't my thread, but since so much has taken place here, it may well be the right place to continue on from. Time will tell. If it proves not to be, then we can simply move the good portions to another thread and leave this one stand on it's own merits.

Thanks again, and hope other great players find the time to contribute as well.

Don

Don, this definately has evolved enough to merrit it's own new thread. It will help us "cut through the chase". MHO

I am about nine months into my attenpt to learn this pedal steel and my biggest problem: every time I sit down to practice I ask myself ok now what am I going to attempt to-day....... There really is no set way of advancing or, what is the next level, or where do I go from here, or, or, or,
Don

Calvin, Don & all,

This topic has helped me a lot already in these few days! You all have covered a lot of what I have been trying out in the past month, especially about getting organized mentally.
One of my biggest problems to get over has been that I am a lefty guitarist,I thought I would not be able to get the picking/grips correct or co-ordinated. I even called Jeff Newman last year about it when I ordered some of his lessons. He talked me out of looking for a left-handed instrument ( I thought I needed ) and said approach it like piano,since my right hand is already trained for leads on piano & guitar and it is working for me.
I was wondering if anyone else had a similar experience??

..a side comedy note,,,
my wife,, believes a PSG is the perfect instrument for my ADDHD or whatever you want to call it,,, because,,
"..no matter how bad a new chord or phrase sounds...you always keep looking for another " !

Thanks for the discussion.

I appreciate the kind words. Calvin I wouldnt advocate trying to learn it in a week. It took me several years to really start understanding it on a 6 string, and a few years into steel I am still getting it going. My advise is in retrospect. If I had learned basic theory right off (first 2 years of playing) I would have advanced on the guitar quicker. Thank God I had this theoretical background starting in with the steel. I would say, in my opinion that the pedal steel e9 tuning is at least 100 times more difficult to learn than the 6 string, due to the amount of physical finesse and the inclusion of 2 feet and 2 hands and 3 fingers + 2knees, vrs the 2 hands for 6string. Without any knowledge of music I cant even imagine how confusing learning P steel is. I think introductory level theory cuts away some of the confusion presented to a newbie sitting down to a steel or any instrument, they know that what they are trying to do has purpose applicable to more than the particular song they are learning. It gives them a frame of reference to use for the next song.

Just like learning any new language, it takes study and time. You cant read a phrasebook on the airplane and expect to have conversations with the locals.

theory is the phrasebook, and conversations with the locals are the songs.

sounds stupid, but music is a language

Calvin is now free to learn on his own. Possibly he and Dean S. can teach one another..

A New thread has been opened. For the one's lending their time to help, I'd sure appreciate it, since I'm in the process of reassembling my pedal steel after a total disassembly to thoroughly clean and lube it. Not an easy task.

Dale, you asked

When playing/improvising by ear, do some of you prefer, on one hand, the AB-down position as your "home" position or on the other hand the no-pedals (or AF) position as your "home" position.

This really got me thinking. I find myself at "home" in either the open or AB down positions. I choose one over the other depending on what the next move will be. I like a lot of movement under the chord, using pedals and knees, so it is a question of "do I want lowers or raises?" In the pedals down position, of course, you have lowers available by releasing the pedal raises. In the open position, you have the raises. One other thing, lowers can be used as raises if you start with the lower engaged.

Great job guys in getting this thread back on track!

I have noticed some think musical theory is not important,if you learn to play Three Blind Mice,or Stardust,you may not know it,but you ARE using musical theory.DYKBC.

Don
how long does it take you to clean a guitar ?

you have been cleaning that guitar since before thanksgiving
that I know of

it should only be a 3-4 day job
are you rebuilding it or just cleaning it as you said

just wondering

My thoughts are that they are some steel players who never leave the starting blocks and others who race ahead while some of us run at a steady pace but keep on learning as we go . Not everybody who tries to play steel end up at the winning post at the same time.
What I'm trying to say is don't expect to be a great player some day it will not happen I'm afraid to say,
Be thankful that you can play a little or play a lot , it don't matter if you are a poor player or a great one the fact is you tried..

i know that this is gonna sound strange but
buy this book


let me explain

while i was in Texas , i got frustrated with trying to learn the steel and sold mine
so while i was without a steel i decided i wanted to play something..anything

i ran acrosss this book $12.95 i went home and read it and i thought ...it can't be that easy
i went to Radio Shack and bought a keyboard $100.00
did exacly what the book said
in three weeks i was playing Floyd Crammers " last date" not only was i playing it , i was playing it pretty well
make no mistake ..the steel takes much longer
but the method of learning can be used for the steel
it is a different approach than a lot of folks here like
i suspect if the truth were known, many steel players learned using this method

please don't tell me to stick with playing the keyboard ...while its fun i have to stick with the steel

its just something for you to think about

i am not saying this is the right way or the only way ...its just good reading

who knows, the worst that could happen is
you might learn to read music

Calvin,You should have said the BEST thing that could happen,you may learn how to read music,When I was about ten,trying to learn six string guitar,When I was on summer vacation I got a GREAT mail order course[THE US SCHOOL OF MUSIC] That summer I spent 12 to 14 hours a day[through bleeding fingers and a lot of pain]to teach myself to sight read the guitar the correct way.Did'nt know it at the time,just being a kid,But it sure payed of about fifteen years later when I was playing clubs that featured show girls[not the topless bar type]they always brought their music and if you wanted to work there,you HAD to read their music,Also being one of the few guitar players around that read,got a lot of other work over the years,Don't care what anyone says,knowing a little musical theory is an ASSET,not a liability.DYKBC.

thanks Charles

i don't care much for the piano but for those that do.. that is a great book
you can use that book to play any kind of music
EXCEPT CLASSICAL
and in the book he explains why it doesn't work for that
it really cuts thru the crap

Although I'm still a beginner & a long way from playing out. Here are some things that helped me:

This book breaks stuff down in simple terms. It also laysout the fretboard nicely & instructs you where to find chords:



This book is a wealth of information. Winnie was extremely knowledeable but, some of the book can be intimidating & written a bit over a beginners head:



This video is also a wealth of information & is fairly simple. It's also great at teaching you little things like posture, right hand form/shape & technique. This video can get you playing stuff fairly fast.



I'm not saying that these are the best materials that are available, there is tons of stuff out there & I own a ton of it...I'm just saying that this has helped me.

I use all 3 together. It's my belief that if you gleaned stuff from all 3 & combined it into a book & video set, you would have the ultimate instruction set for the Pedal Steel beginner!!!

Three other things that can help:

1. Try to get a teacher. Even if you only take a few lessons, you'll learn so much. They can go over your posture & form and give you pointers. Obviously, if you can stick with lessons you will be better off.

2. Watch & listen to as much steel as you can.

3. Be a member of this forum & don't be afraid to ask questions. If you are nervous about posting a question for everyone to see, pick someone out who seems knowledgeable & email or PM them the question. Most people on the forum are really nice & they are willing to help.

I hope this helps out someone,

Casey

As another newish player, I'd like to offer some suggestions (other than live lessons and goal-oriented practice, which are pretty obvious if you can manage them):

1)Reading all I could find about both pedal steel and music theory was essential for me. I don't think there's a PSG player in the world who wouldn't benefit from a browse through "The Elements of Modern Harmonic Technique" by Gordon Delamount. Winnie Winston's (PBUH) book, as Casey said, is really excellent but does rush the student through a lot of important stuff (like the circle of 5ths). Also, this forum is not a substitution for practicing, but if you think about what you're reading here, it's a heck of a lot better for your learning curve than watching T.V.

2)Going back, learning Dobro or lap steel and trying to understand how only a few different notes interact harmonically can only move you forward in the long run. Those three notes G,B,D (scaletones 1, 3 & 5) on standard Dobro tuning are a wonderful starting place. Pretty soon, you can start imagining what changes you'd like to be able to be making with pedals. Then, if you do decide to go back to your PSG, things are a little bit easier to get the hang of.

3) If you're a guitarist or play Dobro and know the key of G pretty well, write out your E9th copendent from the third fret. Keyboard players should go from the eighth fret to see what the changes look like in the key of C. If you're a nerd like me, you can even write in the "major scale tone" numbers next to every lettered note.

4) Play along with songs that follow a I IV V (ex. G,C,D) chord progression. Then play songs that don't. "I Shall Be Released" is a great way to get to know the diatonic chords of any key. It starts on the I, then ascends through IIm, IIIm, IV, V before crashing on I (ex. E, F#m, G#m, A, B, E). Always try to find at least two places to play any new chord you learn.

5) This one is a personal matter and generally the forum is a place we don't talk about this stuff much, but I think you really do have to stay off the..uh.. "wacky tobaccy" when trying to learn steel - That's regardless of how "groovy" a six string guitarist you might be, by the way. In the same vein, I find that a beer or two might loosen me up, but the hands get really sloppy after more than "a few."

Thanks to everyone who has posted on this thread, it's been alternatively informative and wildly entertaining,

Ricky

Bump!!!

Like the cat in the helmet on Laugh In said "verrry eeenteresting"!

The two extremes of the problem are:
1.I don't want to know what goes on in the kitchen, I just want to eat.
2. I wish that those folk out there eating would learn to appreciate what it takes to prep their food.

If you don't have an ear, you won't be much of a player.

Some will develop an ear with a lot of practice...some won't.

If you don't have a sense of rhythm, you won't be much of a player.

Some will develop a sense of rhythm thru a lot of practice...some won't.

There is a difference between a "picker" and a "musician"...you don't have to know music theory to "pick".

The language used by the picker is usually different from that of the musician. I think that most "beginners" will get further faster (first mile) by dealing with the picker = put your fingers here and pick this string = tab.

My first steel tune was "You Are My Sunshine", played in an A tuning on an old Stella, using a flat bar, and from tab, in group lessons. I watched what the instructor did and copied it. Then I learned how he put the tab together form sheet music, and decided to figure that out = learn some basic music = scales, chords, progressions. Four lessons and I was gone.

I learned that a little reading would teach me how much I did not know. "Ignorance can be cured, stupid is forever".

You don't have to play well to have fun.

Hang around as much picking as you can...pick if they let you...keep the volume down till you get it.

Get BIAB...lots of theory via osmosis (accidental learning by using), and lots of tracks to play with are available. They need a BIAB Lite for beginners.

In the E9, C6, E9/B6, and Bb13 LAID OUT series, I tried to cover more practical theory than most pickers would want, but suggested that if all you wanted was chord locations to jump to the last sheets...if you know what chord type you want and just needed the root string and fret, go to the added simplified file on the short form, plug in the root note, and see the result. That is the "what"...if you are curious about the "why", read the sections on Progressions, Substitutions, Alterations, Extensions, etc.

You do NOT need all that stuff to pick tunes, but it can't hurt.

I learned to swim by being tossed into the brook, not by reading about it.