The Steel Guitar Forum

Jim Cohen wrote:....
Perhaps there's a lesson for classically-oriented steel guitarists in there somewhere...

JC

Yes, get pieces commissioned for the steel guitar.

Rick Collins wrote:...Are there a lot of electrified instruments (of any kind) in classical music?...

No, and there's an interesting parallel there too, to the Bluegrass community, which is also very traditionalist, generally eschewing electrified instruments (though I'm sure there are some departures). Jernigan plays fantastic hoe-downs but I'm not aware of him ever being asked to play at any "bluegrass festivals"...

You guys seem to have forgotten about chamber music, and fact that I’ve already played in such a group, and performed for classical music audiences.

Moreover, just yesterday I played with an orchestra for the first time. (Our fellow forumite Peter Freiberger was there to support me.) It was a local community orchestra made up mostly of amateurs.

Even so, I was very nervous and wasn’t at my best, and I had a great deal of trouble following the conductor, partly because of my inexperience, and partly because I had to alternate looking at her and at my hands.

But everybody loved the steel. I got a lot of positive comments about how lovely it sounds, etc. (I try to get a very mid-rangy tone like Chalkers, with no twang.)

Now I didn’t try to play a part that was written for some other instrument. Instead I wrote an arrangement of something for myself as a soloist with orchestral accompaniment, and not withstanding my poor performance, it worked.

It is very clear that I need LOTS of practice doing this, and it might not be possible for me to return enough times for that to be possible. But it was also very clear that the steel makes a wonderful guest solo instrument in an orchestral context.

I intend to pursue this. It probably means enrolling at a local college. I will be talking to the people at the music department at a couple of nearby schools very soon.

Rick Collins wrote:
Are there a lot of electrified instruments (of any kind) in classical music?

Not on traditional classical music. Most of this music was written before the invention of electric instruments. But a lot of contemporary composers, especially people who write film scores, often include electric guitars and synthesizers in their instrumentation.

I haven't had a chance to read every post in here, but it seems like a great thread.

I'm a young player (27) and pretty new to the instrument, but it quickly took over my life when I started, and I am thankful for that. Also, it has made me a much more well rounded musician and has pushed my playing on my other instruments and how I look at a fretboard, generally.

I'd like to reiterate something that I saw mentioned earlier- I think the lap steel is an important instrument for keeping steel alive. Why? It's less expensive, less complicated, and I can see it easily being gobbled up by the hipster crowd in the same way that they've recently jumped onto banjo and ukelele. Now, I'm not saying that is the best thing for the steel guitar, or that there is anything wrong with those instruments (I enjoy them all, and have a nice 8 string lap steel and a banjo).

What I am saying, is that lap steel is more accessible- which is key for young, curious musicians...or people that aren't willing to commit to pedal steel. Personally, I bought a lap steel before pedal steel, to see if I thought I would like it. I got it because I was curious. I loved country music..but I couldn't name a steel player if you paid me. I think that might be the case for a lot of people in my generation.

I also think that it some of the manufacturers put out lap steels, that could revitalize interest. A lot of young kids grab onto ukelele or banjo because they can be had for cheap. Imagine if Recording King or another China-based manufacturer started making cool little steels that any teenager or 20-something could get (kind of like they do with resonators). Personally, I know several people that have cheap Regal resonators, because they heard the sound in some hipster newgrass band that caught their attention. Having access to a cheap resonator allowed them to dabble. Are they becoming serious players? Not really, but it keeps interest and awareness of the instrument alive and well.

Which guitar do you think more people know about: a stratocater or an ES-335? My guess is the strat, becaue they're everywhere and can be bought cheap (probably also because more people play strats too). I think there is merit to this principle.

Now, I'm going to say something a little bold (I probably have already). I think my generation, aside from not being exposed to a lot of steel music, has a mentality that is not conducive to keeping the steel guitar alive. We suffer from the need for immediate success and feeling of accomplishment. For the average person, that will not be the case on a pedal steel. As I heard someone once say (though I don't think it's true), it takes two years just to suck on pedal steel. I don't think that's true, but I think the steep learning curve doesn't help, particularly with a generation that suffers from the instant gratification syndrome. Compare that to playing an electric guitar- even if you stink, you can crank the gain, stomp some pedals, and get some fulfillment out of that (I guess). To be honest, I feel like my generation is seriously laking in hobbies/passions, in general -that is, unless you count Facebook and reality TV.

Even though most of us love Pedal Steel Instrumentals I sincerely doubt that even back in the 50's, 60's, and 70's. the hey day of the Steel, that any of the great artists sold enough instrumentals to make them well off. The general public buys records or CD's of people who sing, generally speaking...name me a one Steel instrumental that sold over a million copies. I know Sleepwalk was a big hit but that was on a non-pedal steel guitar. I loved the recordings of Speedy West and Jimmy Bryant but I doubt whether they even sold a million copies of anything they recorded although their songs were used for radio station breaks by many stations and they recorded on a major label. Let's face it, it's a singers world..look a Mick Jagger of the Rolling Stones...he's still making millions..the public likes a spectacle..you have to run, jump and scream to the beat of a crazy drummer..the louder, the better...wish it were not so.

I certainly believe in doing new and different things with steel guitars. My "Songs of Nakapeida" was an experiment for sure.

Society isn't valuing live musical performance. Karaoke was a symptom - everyone makes their own music these days - or at least they think so. There is no value in buying music to the consumer - they think of music as "free".

Police forces agressively staking out night clubs dampened enthusiasm for night clubs patrons. Certainly made me more reluctant to go check out a band.

Fashions in music come and go, They take a long time to die out. I remember the big band era still echoed in my youth - reeling from the death blow dealt by Rock 'n Roll. Right now I'm working on western swing comping. As I'm working on my sock rhythm the thought occurs to me - to what extent are our D-10 tunings an artifact of those styles.

In my youth bands had variations in intonation. The arrival of affordable tunners and synthesizers has created a uniformity in tuning and intonation. Even the vocalists have their notes "pitch" corrected. So a tempered tuned steel guitar can really grate on peoples' ears because they aren't used to anything but the most uniform of sounds.

Everyone is pressed to find work in most areas. Many others look for work as well.

Curly Chalker's second album was titled "More Ways to Play" as I recall. He was pointing the way!

Many groups of people gather and associate out of fondness for an instrument - I went to a Dulcimer Festival in North Carolina once.

But these are all backward looking. Sharing affection for something that has already touched many lives.

The only advice I can give is to repeat what I was told starting out -

You got to pick that thing with authority!

Are there a lot of electrified instruments (of any kind) in classical music?
...just seeking information.

This may be a bigger point than that, regarding jazz music. There's been a concerted effort by a rather powerful group to define "Jazz Music" as being America's classical music, played by black people,* on acoustic instruments. By now it's an old topic, and there's been a strong backlash, but then... Wynton Marsalis is well known as one of the ringleaders of this group, and he's still the Artistic Director for Jazz at Lincoln Center and Music Director for the Jazz at Lincoln Center Orchestra. As such, he's been responsible for awarding composition payments to... himself! He also wrote, and starred in, NPR's 26-week series on Jazz, and he was the producer and commentator in Ken Burn's 2001 documentary called Jazz, in which jazz music just stopped in 1965 or so. His best friend is the influential critic Stanley Crouch, who follows the same doctrine: Miles Davis tried to ruin jazz in 1969 with the electrified "In a Silent Way" and all that fusion - Weather Report, Mahavishnu Orchestra, and Return to Forever - was just amplified garbage solely designed to make money.

Now, I don't really get it, but I went backwards through this, from Mahavishnu to Miles to older Miles to Coltrane, back to Ellington... for one thing, those three fusion bands didn't sound anything like each other, for that matter Weather Report went in all sorts of different directions, the first RTF album was very different from the 2nd, and the 2nd from the 3rd. And when I first heard the Coltrane band with Elvin Jones and McCoy Tyner I thought "now there's a guy who would've LOVED to play with John McLaughlin." But one thing's for sure - if a solidbody electric guitar and an electric bass, by definition, CAN'T be jazz instruments, a pedal steel guitarist who thinks he's playing jazz can only be a hallucinatory 60's casualty and he's damn sure not going to be playing it at Lincoln Center (and you do NOT want to be reviewed by Mr. Crouch).

*(Yes, Wynton Marsalis actually said that; your tax dollars at work)

Incredible thread Zane!
Probably the longest chain of lucid,
well thought out responses of any forum
post I've ever read. Definitely food for thought.

No other instrument can make a glissando quite as well or as dynamic as the steel guitar.
A steel bar on a steel string and then electrofied can vary pitch positively from any given note to infinity, with no "dead air" inbetween.
Some try it on the electric Spanish style 6-string, but it just isn't as pleasing as the steel guitar.
The glissando is done on piano and other instruments also, but nothing to approach the sound of the steel guitar.

The gliss. from one pitch to the next is what awakened audiences to the Hawaiian sound.

"Sleep Walk" (probably the must successful steel guitar instrumental ever) incorporates it as a novelty, with good taste. Santo and Johnny use it spareingly, as it must be used to not be boring.

Some day, some innovative steel guitarist will push the steel guitar to the forefront with audiences; and they will give the instrument the attention its players deserve.

But, I believe this will happen with a simple "mind- sticking" tune played on a non-pedal guitar.
And, it will probably be two steel guitars in concert.
If this could happen, then the pedal steel, with the "sit-down complexity" of pedals and levers would gain more attention.

I have long thought that the "perfect band" would include two people who could both at least play steel guitar some of the time (and a bassist playing fretless...) I keep going back to these two guys:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbLqRh7_aiM

There's no danger of confusing them with somebody else, there's no one else playing anything else remotely like them. It's "art" music without being either ambient or "noise." And from what little I can find out these guys are both known primarily as composers. Writing music that leans towards the strengths of pedal steel is another thought.

Getting into Blue Grass with a steel would be hard. I grew up in a Blue Grass family. They only wanted me to play Rythum Guitar since we had no Bass player at the time. I wanted to learn Violin or Mandalin. They insisted I play guitar. I then heard the Steel Guitar and was hooked. I was at a place one night playing with part of my family a couple years ago. The group played Rocky Top and I joined in on it with the steel, I practice finger work with Rocky Top. When we got ready to leave a man from the crowd came up and said he never heard such a thing Rocky Top on a steel guitar. I asked him if he had the original of the Osborn Brothers, He said, yes. I told him go home and listen to it close. Speedy West was on the original, With a lot of steel licks. Eletric Bass seems the only acceptable eletric insturment, If no Upright Bass is available.

One of the best thought provoking threads I have read in a long time. Lots of input and lots to think about.

This thread made me think of a quote I heard from David Byrne (of the rock band the Talking Heads)

"Singing is a trick to get people to listen to music for longer than they would ordinarily."

Having learned to play in the western swing era of pre-1950, I was taught that vocalists existed only to give musicians a break between intense and awe inspiring solos that would impress great, but usually unemployed, musicians.

What a difference from today's reality.....where musicians who don't sing are just ditch-diggers in the music world.

I remember getting a call when I was on TV; wanted to know if I could play with a well known religious group up and down the east coast. I asked what it paid so I could travel. The reply..."Singers got paid but musicians did not". Can you guess what my choice was...???

Rick Collins wrote:
Some day, some innovative steel guitarist will push the steel guitar to the forefront with audiences; and they will give the instrument the attention its players deserve.

Rick,

That day arrived a few years back when Robert Randolph was featured in a Jimi Hendrix tribute at the Grammy's......He is that guy......Santo and Johnny sold a million with a steel instrumental.....Proving that great melodies reach the masses on any instrument.....I believe each musician is on their own towards exposure. I also believe it has always been that way.

Paul

Franklin wrote:...Santo and Johnny sold a million with a steel instrumental.....Proving that great melodies reach the masses on any instrument...

Paul, do you believe that this could still happen today or were S&J just at the right place at the right time, a long time ago, and that that era has passed? I'm not so sure (though, I must say, like Susan Alcorn, I don't worry about it one way or the other...)

Franklin wrote:That day arrived a few years back when Robert Randolph was featured in a Jimi Hendrix tribute at the Grammy's......He is that guy

WOW!
...must have missed it.

I respectfully disagree as well.
Whistle me one RR tune.

Bud Angelotti wrote:Whistle me one RR tune.

Bud, the question wasn't whether one could whistle a tune (which implies simple, melodic lines that are not a requirement); the question was whether any steeler had "pushed the steel guitar to the forefront with audiences." RR unquestionably has done that. Whether anyone can whistle anything or not is immaterial.

It's not immaterial to me. It's important. I love melody first. I also like fancy licks as much as anybody else. In my world, the fancy licks follow the melody. Not the other way around. You say tomatoe, I say tamatoe. By the way, there are LOTS of fans of steel guitar, at a RR show. He's fantastic no doubt, and if some of his songs stick in your head, great. They don't stick in mine. KISS methodolgy.