The Steel Guitar Forum

Bill that is funny.


But, yeah I agree with them, you are pulling from a very small box with your definition of contemporary. It is a personal view that I believe it is not held widely by the majority.

As I try and understand what you are saying, your definition of contemporary is much more like my definition of epoch changing moments like Louis Armstrong, Parker, Monk, Davis, (I draw from the jazz world mostly) but these things are so rare, you are lucky if one a century happens let alone 5 or 6 Tsunami's that jazz had in the last 100 years.

There is nothing wrong with large change followed by folks building off of those changes, like the carving out of rooms once the building has been built.

I like poor Kiki, and I think you all are a little tough on her. I first heard her on acoustic guitar, the lap steel stuff I heard later. Any solo act trying to do something not mainstream and going out on the road and building an audience for it, male or female, have my respect and admiration. I think she is by definition contemporary (if nothing else than the looping device available to solo poor musicians just hasn't been around that long.

And as we think about contemporary and changes, I find it humbling to think of this: It was 20 years Louis Armstrong's first recordings, and Charlie Parker's bebop. Only 20 years. It has been 70 years since Charlie Parker first changed music.

Imagine the explosion of creativity in that 20 years that got us from Gut Bucket Blues to the Reboppers. Can anything compare to that in our lifetime? I don't think so.

Everyone owes it to themselves to make the best music they can and not worry about what the younger generation or anyone else is going to do.

Bill Hatcher wrote:Can someone send me a link to a contemporary, advant garde/modern/out/non pedal/strange/eclectic/original/non butt level steel mp3 anywhere on the net so I can listen to it.

Where is one?!?!?!?

So you want Elliott Sharp?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=az7UdTv6rdw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrIPMVIO_Po

Brad Bechtel wrote:

Bill Hatcher wrote:Can someone send me a link to a contemporary, advant garde/modern/out/non pedal/strange/eclectic/original/non butt level steel mp3 anywhere on the net so I can listen to it.

Where is one?!?!?!?

So you want Elliott Sharp?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=az7UdTv6rdw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrIPMVIO_Po

Your getting me in the ballpark now!!

Is there someone who is dedicated totally to the steel doing this? I like Chas Smiths' stuff.
http://www.newmusicbox.org/article.nmbx?id=5922

Susan Alcorn, Chas Smith, Myk Freedman, Frank Schultz--duets for theremin and lap steel ( http://duetonline.net/samples )

I forgot about Myk Freeman. He's probably closer to what you're talking about than anyone else I can think of. He composes and leads the band St. Dirt Elementary School.

Mike Neer wrote:Everyone owes it to themselves to make the best music they can and not worry about what the younger generation or anyone else is going to do.

Exactly. Just have fun with it. Practice, listen to stuff you like, don't listen to stuff you dislike, and fulfill your objective for picking up steel guitar in the first place, what ever that objective is. My objective is to help perpetuate the more traditional styles of playing, because those are the styles that move me.

I leave for a couple hours and look what happens.

A couple odd points that will probably get drowned out in the overall scheme of things:

While his sheer degree of virtuosity and instrumental invention is pretty unusual, I don't think Bhattacharya's choice of instrument is by any means without precedent in Indian culture. I've even heard some steeler suggest, at one point (can't remember where or who), that India was actually *the origin* of the steel concept, with the Hawaiians getting their slide idea from India. Whether it's true or not, I have at least a couple albums of old Bollywood funk where lap steel is being used pretty extensively.

As with sacred steel, the instrument seems to naturally appeal to would-be instrumentalists in Indian music. In both cases, I suspect it's because it lends itself unusually well to the imitation of the complex melismatic vocal lines already accepted as the norm in these two genres.

I thought it was odd to see Roman mention Stockhausen, Glass, and Part (yes, I know there's an umlaut, and I'm just too lazy to alt-code-type it) in the same breath. It's sort of like someone throwing Elvis, Captain Beefheart, and Air Supply all together, saying, "Now, see, *that's* why rock sucks."

Part and Glass are pretty accessible to most contemporary-classical neophytes, albeit in very different ways (mostly, I find Part's work rather spiritually moving, and Glass's work pretty simplistic and irritating).

Stockhausen has always been sort of the poster boy for the hardcore avant-garde in the latter half of the 20th century, not that his inability to compromise stopped him from directly influencing the likes of the Beatles. After all, we have his seminal 1950s work "Gesang der Junglinge" to thank for the existence of "Revolution 9," along with a number of other techniques used in the Beatles' late music that probably proved more popular with their fanbase. Actually, I'd argue it's the razor-blade-loving likes of early Stockhausen and, nonserially, John Cage that we have ultimately to thank for Pro Tools... for better or for worse.

And actually, that might bring us to a more interesting point; from the current vantage point, music as a whole appears to be sitting still and stagnating in a way that it almost never has since the acceleration of mass media. Our instruments aren't really developing at this point (even the turntable and the computer have effectively become canon), and neither are our musical styles.

You might say that "the song is most important." As nebulous and maddeningly vague as this statement might be, it's a sentiment shared by an awful lot of people. But without drastic innovation coming from somewhere-- timbral, structural, whatever parameter of musical expression you'd like to tinker with today-- music as a whole can't continue to grow, and can't continue to fully express the human condition as it develops. I don't know what it says about us as a culture that nothing new is really happening. I know it's not because we as a culture have finally attained happiness. Actually, I'm relatively young, but I can't recall a period of such sustained and deep-rooted populist malcontent.

So I still say something big is coming, and it's going to be something that probably even I won't be able to accept or understand, and that's good. I'm nearly 40 and I have yet to hear *any* music the kids are making that I'm tempted to call "meritless noise." That should have happened at least ten years ago, if the kids were doing their job. We absolutely *need* drastic, cutting-edge stuff that doesn't make sense immediately to most of the populace. Without it, music ceases to grow, and ceases to be a useful art.

RD Bennett wrote: We absolutely *need* drastic, cutting-edge stuff that doesn't make sense immediately to most of the populace. Without it, music ceases to grow, and ceases to be a useful art.

This begs the question as to whether or not "art" can be looked at as a utilitarian concept.

Oh yeah, and thanks to Mike, Brad, and Mr. Hatcher for their recommendations. We're digging the Chas Smith sample over here and I was going to say something about the Duet folks too.

No one has mentioned Bruce Kaphan's solo record yet, although he's of course a pedal steel guy and his music on Slider isn't totally out there, just unusual for the steel. I understand he's got a couple more coming out soon and they've certainly been a long time coming. I always liked his work with AMC a lot.

Anthony Locke wrote:

RD Bennett wrote: We absolutely *need* drastic, cutting-edge stuff that doesn't make sense immediately to most of the populace. Without it, music ceases to grow, and ceases to be a useful art.

This begs the question as to whether or not "art" can be looked at as a utilitarian concept.

Well, I figure it must be useful to humanity somehow, or else we wouldn't have kept the nonsense around this long.

RD Bennett wrote:Oh yeah, and thanks to Mike, Brad, and Mr. Hatcher for their recommendations. We're digging the Chas Smith sample over here and I was going to say something about the Duet folks too.

No one has mentioned Bruce Kaphan's solo record yet, although he's of course a pedal steel guy and his music on Slider isn't totally out there, just unusual for the steel. I understand he's got a couple more coming out soon and they've certainly been a long time coming. I always liked his work with AMC a lot.

I have Kaphans solo CD and Alcorn and Chas. I bought them just to support what I believe in, the furthering of the boundaries of the steel guitar. When I learned about their work and that it was "contemporary"....at least that is how I view it, I purchased their recordings.

RD Bennett wrote:Oh yeah, and thanks to Mike, Brad, and Mr. Hatcher for their recommendations. We're digging the Chas Smith sample over here and I was going to say something about the Duet folks too.

No one has mentioned Bruce Kaphan's solo record yet, although he's of course a pedal steel guy and his music on Slider isn't totally out there, just unusual for the steel. I understand he's got a couple more coming out soon and they've certainly been a long time coming. I always liked his work with AMC a lot.

I sat down one day at the non pedal 12 string and just played some improv, mostly chords and some long things. Feel free to use it for any sciFi movie you might be producing or just press repeat on your CD player and take a nap.


http://www.mediafire.com/?9m4t2m9mjnl

Great topic. I recently started playing the lap steel due to a finger injury and don't have any history with the instrument. As a guitar player I spent most of my time trying to emulate contemporary guitarists, who obviously borrowed from Chuck Berry and others, but I never had an interest in going there myself.

Playing the lap steel is forcing me to think more about music than I have for a long time and taking me further back into music history. Thanks for the Kelly Joe Phelps reference. He's new to me and I think I'll being listening a lot more to his playing.

Brad Bechtel wrote:
So you want Elliott Sharp?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=az7UdTv6rdw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrIPMVIO_Po

Man, I dig Elliott Sharp!

When I want to hear that kind of originality, I turn to my favorites - Elliott Sharp, John Zorn, Bill Frissell, Tim Sparks, and especially Marc Ribot.

Those are all players that do (very much) their own thing, and use the guitar (acoustic, electric, lap steel, whatever) to produce sounds not immediately associated with the guitar.

I take inspiration from all of them.....too bad I just make noise

Just dawned on me that this album is a perfect example for this discussion:

http://www.amazon.com/Western-Bell-Kell ... 181&sr=8-5

An instrumental record released in '09, it features lap slide on several very wild tracks. Completely unusual, I love the thing...it took one listen to be hooked, and about 12 listens to start to 'get' it.

Highly recommended - if you have doubts, just download and listen to "Blowing Dust 40 Miles".....I guarantee you've never heard another steel song like it.

Actually, on an acoustic guitar forum I frequent, there was some discussion of this record on it's release - some people thought it was a 'pulling of the wool' over fans' eyes......for what it's worth, my wife hates this record

Mike Neer wrote:Hahaha...who the heck even knows what Joaquin Phoenix is anymore. Isn't he a rapper now? I think I saw him stage with James Williamson and the Stooges and the RRHOF.

That was Iggy.... J. Phoenix is dead, and Ig merely look's like he is... But James and the boys rocked that show, it was their night! Mega congrats!

What I find missing too often in modern steel playing is humor and the little inflections that conveyed some mystery, intregue, and suspense that at least a few older players seemed to have in spades. It's like newer players just havn't gotten enuf experience or interest and are fine just doing what they do without the mega desire to push it further. Maybe we have so many distractions in our lives now that getting deep isn't as important anymore, plus the computer gives everybody a chance to be heard so why try harder? And besides, how many even appreciate a deep player now? I miss that, and when you do stumble across one it's like love at first sight.

In case he hasn't been mentioned or chimed in yet, Chris Scruggs is one that takes the old styles and whips them up into his unique new blend.

Ron Whitfield wrote:That was Iggy.... J. Phoenix is dead, and Ig merely look's like he is... But James and the boys rocked that show, it was their night! Mega congrats!

I think it was River Phoenix who died. When Iggy called a bunch of people on stage, I think the bearded maniac was Joaquin. But, yeah, that was cool.

Steinar Gregertsen wrote:Thanks for the kind words Bill!

When I started playing lap steel seriously I had already been making my own music for many many years, including music for ballet, multi media, TV, etc, in addition to songs for the various bands I played in over the years.
So for me it was like picking up another instrument, or "voice" if you like, and incorporating it into my own music.

I did NOT want to become another musician simply because I had started playing another instrument. I have nothing but the greatest respect for all the great virtuosos of the past, be it Joaquin Murphy or Jerry Byrd, and I listen to "old time" steel music with great interest and enjoyment.

But, I am 51 now and I am not going to spend the next 10 years trying to learn how to sound like them, I have too much of my own music left in me to spend that much of whatever time I have left on trying to sound like someone else (never been any good at that anyway, be it on guitar or lap steel, hehe...).

Over here I notice a lot of players who start playing lap steel and apparently also think more or less the same way I do. Some will seriously study the roots of the instrument, while others will spend time learning about it while not 'becoming' it.

So, to try and answer your question, I don't think the focus on the past that you may notice on this forum limits the appeal of the lap steel. I believe most will find it interesting and educational, digest as much as they can or choose to, and keep using the lap steel the way they want to.
There's been an eruption of interest in the lap steel (and dobro) over here in the last 5-7 years, and players seems to take it in whatever direction they please.

This forum is a great resource and very important, I love it dearly - but let's not overestimate its influence, the 'young ones' do as they please no matter what we write in here.... Worst case scenario is that it may limit the appeal of the forum, not of the lap steel.

ditto to pretty much every word including the past experience. It's like we were separated at birth oh and I'm 36 lol

I play and compose music. What ever is in my hands is the tool not the definition of who I am. There's n flamenco and tango steel guitar category, i just do that music on steel. Two weeks ago i did a classical wedding ceremony solo, this past weekend jazz, gypsy7 jazz. It's all notes. I can just as easily sit down to write or play a progressive rock tune as I can a film score or an old Jazz tune. I just happen to use steel. Now if I could just master this darn soprano trombone!

Mike Neer wrote:Everyone owes it to themselves to make the best music they can and not worry about what the younger generation or anyone else is going to do.

Damn it, Mike!! As I was reading through all 6 pages of this thread it dawned on me that this would be the ideal tag line for it. But then you had to beat me to it. The fact is that being contemporary isn't where it's at. Styles change at the drop of a hat. And the pre-jazz of the turn of the century is enjoying a revival in certain areas as everything does from time to time. The real key to an instrument's popularity and survival is versatility. It's very hard for one guy to do it all on this instrument because of the large number of tunings and wide difference in the approaches this instrument has taken to various styles. The instrument needs us all. So let's go practice.

Bill McCloskey wrote:

But, yeah I agree with them, you are pulling from a very small box with your definition of contemporary.
...
Imagine the explosion of creativity in that 20 years that got us from Gut Bucket Blues to the Reboppers. Can anything compare to that in our lifetime? I don't think so.

This isn't just a difference of opinion. In fact, I think the cultural meaning of "contemporary" has changed dramatically in the past 20 years or so, and this debate reflects that. Most of the 20th century, especially in the U.S., was a time of constant growth and change, with the ideology that new and unprecedented things were necessarily better than old things. In jazz you had the movement from blues, to swing, to bop, to avant-garde and free jazz: the idea being that doing something totally new was always truer and more cutting-edge than referring to the past, regardless of how far you ended up from what the majority of the population regarded as listenable music. Contemporary was equated with totally new. I think this really reached a peak in the 1980s, and I was really into it then, but I think people started to feel that that particular cycle had played itself out. Rock and pop music didn't go quite as far as jazz in this regard, but I think there was some of the same stuff going on.

More recently, it seems that musicians who regard themselves as contemporary and cutting edge are much more into drawing on and remixing the past than they are in doing things that are completely unprecedented. Elliot Sharp, mentioned earlier in the thread, is a good case in point: in the 1980s, he was basically a noise musician; now he has a blues band, of all things. Yes, a wacky blues band, but still blues. Or Bill Frisell, who went from doing pretty wild stuff in the 1980s to drawing much more on old country and folk music. And the younger generation of musicians seems to be following that same trend, being more interested in remixing the past than doing something totally new. The thing is, this generation actually *defines* "contemporary" in terms of this kind of remixing - in fact, it seems like the association of "contemporary" with avant-garde newness is now seen as a kind of old-fashioned concept, paradoxically.

So yeah, we aren't likely to see the kind of explosion of musical newness we saw in the mid-20th century any time soon. I personally think that now might be a good time to take a break and start re-evaluating and remixing the past for a while. Maybe that very activity is what it takes to set off the next big thing. Meanwhile, I think I'll go put on one of my old Elliot Sharp noise records, for nostalgia's sake.

When one studies classical music history, one learns that the two ways of doing new things tend to run in cycles with each other. A period of time passes when alot of completely new styles emerge. And then a period of consolidation follows. Good observation.

I can't remember who said it but one of the greats in the sax jazz world suggested that sax players should listen to piano players and not other sax players. I think that we have a number of LS players who have followed that advice. There is already some interesting stuff being played today but the 'explosion' may not have happened yet.

I am more conversant with the uke world but there you will currently find almost any kind of music being played, Bach to Bebop, and with very few exceptions it is something that has only recently happened.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78PhdqAd ... re=related

maybe lap steel needs a stian carstensen?



Uli