The Steel Guitar Forum

Rick Winfield wrote:You are correct sir, (J M )
this has got to be one of the most demanding instruments to tame, but well worth the effort.

Back to Jeff:
Using 4 picks, I find it almost impossible to copy him, so I improvise. When I use 3 picks, the system seems to go easier, but, as I said before, take what you need, and incorporate, developing you own style.
Rick

Yes Rick, hopefully a person learns all he can from those who came before him, and eventually take it all to higher levels yet. You can learn from many people.

Well, I read them all and as a Sargent Shultz PSG player there's only one thing that bothers me.

"Spectacularly Difficult Instrument"

Man that is encouraging you know?

As my lifes work I used to do something called process control and instrumentaton on a 900 mile long 48" oil pipeline. For some people who were in all other ways intellegent and responsive to their surroundings they found the work "spectacularly difficult". I didn't. For me it was like a the Duck and the Water.

I sure hope you guys in the "Spectacularly Difficult" camp are either kidding or wrong. Otherwise I think I'll just quit right now.

Great thread otherwise. And I think I'm gonna move to Travis County, TX. My wife may not go though.

It may very well be "Spectacularly Difficult" for a few people, for others it may make sense right out of the gate and be a good ride with lots of fun !

I find reading Russian literature in Russian "Spectacularly Difficult" but hey, maybe that's just me...

I find watching repeat episodes of the Wonder Years "Spectacularly Easy ".

I read somewhere that we are all different...

Tony Prior wrote: I find reading Russian literature in Russian "Spectacularly Difficult" but hey, maybe that's just me...

Even when you hold a magazine between your right arm and your body?

Dennis, I've always thought one of the perks of being a steel player is that so many other musicians think it takes an elevated genius to even start to make sense of one.
If it was that hard, I couldn't do it- I can't walk through a door without banging into the jam...
(shhh- don't tell anybody)

Mark van Allen wrote:Dennis, I've always thought one of the perks of being a steel player is that so many other musicians think it takes an elevated genius to even start to make sense of one.
If it was that hard, I couldn't do it- I can't walk through a door without banging into the jam...
(shhh- don't tell anybody)

It's simple Mark, just keep your elbows in and duck as you go through. You're just too dang elevated. Or too horizontally equipped? Hmmmm In that case keep the elbows out and try it sidewize......nevermind Just kidding

I think this has been said about a dozen times but let's try it again. I have a Community College single subject (electricity if you must know) teaching credential.

One of the things they taught us in teacher school is to be alert for cues as to a student's learning strengths and weakness'. Each student, even in a highly structured class has different ways that the info goes in.

Here's an example that may make no sense but then again may click. I have a blind guitarist friend. He's pretty good and has a great ear. I see other members of the band "helping" him off stage by taking him by the elbow and pushing him in the right direction. That's actually completely the wrong way to lead a blind man.

You offer them YOUR elbow and they will walk behind you. When you get to the steps you say, I'm standing at the top of three steps down. He says OK. You walk down the steps and he follows right behind without a stumble. He now asks for me after the show.

Let's all arrive at the same place safe and sound.
Dan

Come to think of it, when I have a magazine tucked under my arm, I get through the door fine. And that one's a small door.
I need to go back and review my Newman notes.

As for learning intake, there's a lot of reliance on the model involving variations of visual, auditory, and kinesthetic learning... I definitely see it in my own students, where some need to literally play through an example to get it, others can visualize it better from written materials and others need to hear it and copy it.
Some teachers may not be accessing a particular student's learning style at all.

I'm guessing those variations in learning intake have a lot to do with the perpetual debates about tab versus no-tab.

I guess I don't regret having started this tab, since you guys seem to be having a good go at it, but I sure am sorry that I titled it as I did. I watched Jeff Newman on You Tube recently and he was grinning from ear to ear the whole time, so obviously what he taught students was the joy of psg, which is, obviously, the most important thing, and the thing that makes all the rest of it worthwhile. So, once again, apologies to Jeff Newman and all the other good-hearted music teachers out there. Maybe if I held a magazine between my lips it would keep me from opening my big mouth so readily...

As for "spectacularly difficult instrument," that wasn't meant to discourage anybody -- there is nothing else out there that uses both hands, both feet, and both knees, all doing something different. I think most psg beginners are smart enough to figure out that they are taking on a real challenge, and therefore the job of psg instructors is to keep them in good spirits while they wrestle with the challenge, using a delicate balance of hard instruction and gentle encouragement. Wish I'd had a psg teacher -- I learned (and am learning!) the hard way, one bruised ego after another...

For what it's worth:

What the good folks who try to help players improve on their playing or learn, (if new players) by telling them different things, that they've found to be useful and to their advantage of being in a comfortable playing position, shouldn't discourage anyone from learning to play.

Now in the above, we are all quite different from one another, so naturally that doesn't hold true for everyone. As a point, from even a great player telling someone to play with a magazine tucked under their right arm in order to keep their arm down at their side so they can be relaxed. Try that! And after you do, tell me if you were able to relax while tensing the muscles enough to hold that piece of paper or magazine there while playing. I'd take that as being more of an expressive example than an actual thing that they'd truly want you to do while playing.

Instead, move your seat farther to the right, and your arm will most naturally come down closer to your side and be relaxed. The true fact is, that all new players are never relaxed until they've played enough to feel relaxed in what they're doing. Besides that, having the seat as far right as possible, also helps tons in the upper registry as well.

Again, anyone who is not willing to listen to the players and at least pay attention to what they're willing to share as being their experience and how they got to be where they are today, could be a grave mistake. My Hat is off to folks such as Paul Franklin, Joe Wright, and others for attempting to help out the folks wanting to learn to play, or for wanting to be a better player.

Here's a man playing, who's name is Bill Johnson, who played for Marty Robbins. Watch Bill's Right arm as well as his right hand. I can't find the one I wanted to post, but this one will do just fine. And, there sure is nothing wrong with Bill's playing. But again, this wouldn't always apply to everyone else. But you'll see you could drive a truck under his right arm. So it's what works best for each individual is what works. Here it is:

Click Here

And, so some can relax in knowing as I've said, each player is quite unique in his/her own style and way of doing things. However, that doesn't make the ones wrong for telling others what works for them. They have no reason in the world, to tell you wrong.

I hope you also watch Bill's bar rolling technique for sustain. It's quite different too from most other players. But, Bill was, one of the finest.

To see and hear more of Marty's great singing and Bill's playing, you can find them there too. I hope that helps relieve some of the tension of things being set in stone as well.

For the new and newer players don't ever get discouraged by remarks anyone says. Anything said that's negative about how hard it is in learning pedal steel, should just give you that much more incentive to go ahead and strive to be the best you can be. No! It's not easy, but then too, anything worth having never comes easy if it's worth much of anything at all. Especially in self pride in what you've accomplished in life. Go for it and never look back! That is, except to smile while looking back on all the Great times, you had while accomplishing something you may have doubted you could do. You'll be glad you stuck it out and finally got into victory lane.

Sorry, I didn't mean to write a book, just to add hope for some who expressed discouragement of learning to play.

Happy New Year to each of you.......... Don

Don Brown, Sr. wrote: As a point, from even a great player telling someone to play with a magazine tucked under their right arm in order to keep their arm down at their side so they can be relaxed. Try that! And after you do, tell me if you were able to relax while tensing the muscles enough to hold that piece of paper or magazine there while playing. I'd take that as being more of an expressive example than an actual thing that they'd truly want you to do while playing.

Instead, move your seat farther to the right, and your arm will most naturally come down closer to your side and be relaxed. The true fact is, that all new players are never relaxed until they've played enough to feel relaxed in what they're doing. Besides that, having the seat as far right as possible, also helps tons in the upper registry as well.

I can comment on just a point or two, but only on the first chapter of Don's post. .

Yes, I have done both---played with a magazine under my arm AND moved my seat a little more to the right. The magazine helped my focus until I developed enough muscle memory to KEEP my arm from drifting. Was it relaxing at first? NO--I had to push myself out of my comfort zone a little to get the hang of it. Now it is very comfortable--much more comfortable than a fly-away elbo. And yes, it's worth the effort because in the long run, I'm a more relaxed player. And moving the seat over helps put you at a better advantage of posture. Moving the seat over does not make your elbo stay down, but developing muscle memory does that.

Can a person learn to play steel well with a fly-away elbo? of course. I do however doubt that the greats we all admire would be great if they played with a fly-away elbo. I think they would play well, but not great.

What if you were asked the question of WHY are the greats great?? A real answer would have to include "They use proper technique and correct posture." Or do you think they would play better with a fly-away elbo?

Barry Hyman wrote:I guess I don't regret having started this tab, since you guys seem to be having a good go at it, but I sure am sorry that I titled it as I did.

You can change the title with the "Edit" button on your top post, Barry. Just another service we offer.

I have all the Marty Robbins TV shows and of course have watched Bill Johnson play on all the shows. In fact, I used to own that very guitar, though Bobby Flores owns it now.

I liked Bill's playing but I disagreed with his arm and wrist positioning.

So my response is that certainly there are exceptions to every general rule, but those exceptions do not invalidate the truism. For every Bill Johnson vid, I can show you a dozen Buddy Charleton, Hal Rugg, Buddy Emmons, Jeff Newman, Lloyd Green, Tommy White, Paul Franklin et al. examples of preferable body positioning. Back further? I've seen Jerry Byrd, Noel Boggs, and Joaquin Murphey vids as well. They played the same way.

Why is that body positioning preferable? Because the players I mentioned above are better than everybody else and they wouldn't be doing it thataway if there was a better method of doing it.

A monster player can do whatever he feels like doing and still be a monster. Doug J. has an amazing right hand which to me looks unconventional but who's gonna say he isn't the amazing best at what he does? I've seen Joe Wright play with a plaster cast covering his entire hand, with his elbow almost level with his shoulders and only his finger tips hanging out, and he played Orange Blossom Special like you'd think he was Bobbe Seymour with TWO delay boxes!

If y'all can play like those cats, you can have your elbow hanging out your wazoo and I'll be on the front row digging every note you play, but I'm not gonna instruct a newbie that that's the best way to make music and that his body position doesn't matter. It most definitely does.

The magazine tactic people are discussing is quite unnecessary, IMHO. There's no mysterious force that makes the flying elbow stick out. The player just needs to freakin' RELAX and LET GRAVITY WORK! If the elbow extends outward, it's because the wrist is in the wrong position. If the wrist is in the correct position, gravity makes it easy to keep the elbow in.

Am I doing it right? Do my elbows stick out too far? I never thought about it. Watching myself on video, I'm not sure. Somebody tell me.

Seriously.

b0b
Your position looks okay to me, based on the shape of your shoulder, where your body is centered on the guitar, and where on the fretboard your right hand is picking.

The further to the left your right hand is positioned, the elbow will move a similar degree to the right. The key is "are my shoulder and wrist relaxed, and am I effectively blocking the notes I want blocked?"

The proof is in the pudding; in our case, what comes out of the amplifier. Nice arrangement, BTW.

Yes Herb is sooo right, a mag under the arm is unnecessary, but it didnt hurt me, rather, it helped me. It's simply a means to an end. Kind of a reverse approach--with my elbo against my side, my wrist found the "sweet spot". Once I got the hang of it, it became an awareness deal--I would catch myself "drifting" out of position and would need to slow up and RELAX to find the sweet spot again. Now I do not think of it--just do it. So the mag for me was a stepping stone to get my arm and shoulder to relax. And relax is the key. When you are a beginner and do not get to see a teacher every 3-4 months, one does get creative.

Herb,

I absolutely agree with you. The post was to give the folks who feel there was no other way of playing and still being on top shelf, a good look at how going against most other's ways of playing, it was still possible.

And, it wouldn't surprise me at all, to see Joe Wright, one day pick with his toes.

Yes Bill was a great. I'd be seated right there beside you. ............ Don

Joe Wright picking with his toes? Now there's an idea for him, and it wouldn't surprise me if he does it with ease. lol That, I, too, would like to see. How about this March in Dallas?

FTR, I've been practicing Herb's technique for about 4 months now. Just on reso, but it has made a huge difference. I've noticed that when my elbo starts heading out, my hand flattens, and I start missing strings, not to mention, muscles cramping up. It shows up most while practicing roles. I'm picking faster, harder (I am always getting scolded for not picking "hard" enough), and better than ever. I was quite amazed as last week while picking with a friend, I was flying through "John Hardy" and when finished, I asked, "Hey could ya slow it down?". He thehn said, "I was just following you. You was the one picking it that fast." lol What can I say, but thank you Herb. You were exactly right, and when I did sit down at my psg and tried a single note scale...never missed a string/note...surprised myself. It boosted my confidence level loads. Now, if only there were four more hours in the day...Thanks again Herb.

Joe Wright could fish-tail his bar, eagle-claw his fingers and chicken-wing his elbows, and he'd still be one of the best pickers in the world. I swear that guy isn't human!

Yes.
Jeff not only hated to see someone with the animal grip,he would sometime,hit a players hand with a ruler.
Also mentioned a slight hole in the hand where a ping pong ball would go.Then that helped the position, 0f how the hand was held.
But playing without picks! Come,on. Be serious.
I can only imagine what that sound ,sounds like.
I can picture Jeff ,seeing that .(What the heck was that)(Where;s my ruler)!!!
I am hoping it sounds somewhat better than some noise, on the blackboard.
Well.Maybe it even sounds OK.
I would love to hear it sometime.
Maybe I would take back the comment.

Bill (Tell it like it is)

Joe Wright can also play perfectly without even looking at the neck or his hands! This is a guy who has made his steel guitar an extension of his body!!!

Bob,

That was a pretty good analogy of Joe. And the thing is, while at the same time, the amount of comedy he manages to throw in with it all, at the same time.

I think many of those on the outside of the steel guitar world, who see and hear Joe play, are simply seeing Joe as a comic act, rather than seeing Joe (for what he truly is) as being one of the most talented musicians, of our time.
-----------

And here's one that Herb Steiner posted at the end of his post that should be read and understood by anyone who plays, because he's right on the money, when he stated:

I can play a chromatic scale over a C major chord and what I play will sound correct, though 9 of the notes will theoretically be "wrong."There are no incorrect notes, only incorrect emphasis.

That's one of the best statements I've ever seen posted. "The portion in bold."

If folks pick someone they feel confident in, take their advice, (and apply it) they can get a lot farther along in their playing, or in their abilty to play at all, if they're a new player.

I don't feel anyone would purposly give bad advice, but, I do feel there are many who haven't been playing long enough to be giving other new players advice.

Then there are some who feel they have to try and discredit (even) the one's they know are top shelf players, in order to make themselves feel more important than what they may otherwise truly be. That's sad! But, that's how the world seems to be in much of today's society.

There is a wealth of information here, and there would be a ton more, if folks would sit back, and not nit pick the advice, and get down to playing and applying what it is others have taken their time to post.

It's like Jeff Newman taught us: As long as you end up on the correct note at the end of the phrase, everything's fine.
Bless his soul

Responding to Bill Mayville -- I have been playing psg without picks for decades. Started with picks in 1972 and quit using them a few years later. Every so often I put the picks back on to see if I might be on the wrong track, but I hear absolutely no improvement in tone (different, but not better), and it is definitely harder to mute and block with picks on. (Playing with picks is like running with high heels on, as I've said before. My female friends tell me it is possible, but not easy...)

The difference in tone is subtle -- picks make it louder and brighter, but I get a distinctly greater variety of tones with fingertips and fingernails. And I can make it louder with the amp, and brighter by picking closer to the bridge, and I can feel with my fingertips exactly how I am about to shape the nuances of each note, so why use picks?

Once again, I am reminded why I started this interesting but poorly-titled thread: There is too much pedal steel orthodoxy, too much conservative you-must-do-it-the-way-the-greats-do-it conformity, and too little willingness to be open-minded about innovations and unique playing perspectives. I am a professional music teacher, and hitting students with a ruler is not something I need to do, even if it was legal or ethical or necessary, which it is not.

Can I play psg as well as Lloyd Green or Buddy Emmons? Absolutely not, absolutely no comparison. Can I play as fast as the great players? No way, not even close. Do I make mistakes? You bet -- lots of them. But do I get a good tone, that makes audiences excited and happy? Yes, 98% of the time. Do I play the right note/chord at the right time, in tune, with a pleasing tone? Yes, 98% of the time. Am I having fun? Yes, more fun than most people have ever had in their lives! Can you say that I am playing the pedal steel "wrong?" Yes, but all that would prove is that you don't understand life, music, or how the world works.

I'm not trying to disrespect or irritate anybody -- just make people think! It would be as silly as if someone said about six string guitar that you have to play with a flatpick or you are doing it "wrong." Or what if a classical violinist told a great fiddle player he was playing it "wrong?" If your wife is having orgasms, how would you feel if somebody told you you were making love to her "wrong?" What does that mean? It would be stupid and meaningless and offensive, right?

The only bad techniques are the ones that harm the music or that harm the player. If it sounds good, and if the player is happy and healthy and relaxed and comfortable, then the only thing "wrong" is the person who finds fault.

A debate about using or not using finger picks just wouldn't come up on a six string forum. Albert King used a flat pick or his fingers which ever was handy and he felt like using. People strive HARD to duplicate his tone with a Showman and a single D130. Can't do it. Sometimes he wore a tuxedo, sometimes he wore a pair of Dickies overalls and a Yellow Patent Leather Jacket with matching spats. Maybe that had something to do with it?

Here's an observation. I can recognize at least a dozen different 6 string guitar players by tone alone. It's like "Name That Tune". In no time I can pick the guy out. It's called tone and most pro's strive for unique tone. Some succeed, some don't.

Then there's the spin offs. Listen to Reggie Young then listen to George Harrisons later work. Eerie.

So I get what yer sayin Barry. But I'm already working on some sort of string to tie to my elbow to let me know when it starts to fly. What is it they say; "If you're gonna start a habit, make it a good one"