The Steel Guitar Forum

Tony Prior wrote:I seriously doubt that anyone who carries concealed thinks it's ok to shoot someone for stealing there Nashville 112.

I sincerely hope that's true. But then, I'm a cynic and have very little faith in the self-control of my fellow man I'm afraid of someone pulling their gun too quickly from either fear or anger or an over-abundance of testosterone.

Let me tell you a story:

My dad was a gun owner, and one day, when I was about 10 years old, I came home from school and found him lying on the couch passed out with alcohol on the table and pills scattered on the floor, his pistol also on the table in an obviously failed suicide attempt. Me and my sister stayed outside till our mother got home from work just a little bit later, and she immediately took us to a neighbor. Later, my dad shows up on the neighbor's front porch with gun in hand making demands. Our courageous neighbor refused him entry while he held the gun and eventually the situation was defused. But I can tell you it would have ended in bloodshed if not for our neighbor's calm stance. Yes, my dad did enter treatment and the incident was never repeated, but it was a very close call.

Another story:
One of my favorite composition professors from college opened a restaurant with his partner a couple of years after I graduated. After a about a year into it, he shot his partner, then himself. Murder/suicide made MUCH easier by the small amount of effort it takes to pull a trigger.

Another story:
I knew another person who had serious depression issues. He checked into a hotel with his girlfriend for a romantic get-away, but didn't tell her he planned to kill her, then himself. Well, when she saw the gun she ran, and he proceeded to shoot himself in the head.

Another story:
A friend who had serious delusions of grandeur went to India where he thought he could set himself up as a guru. Well, he was turned around immediately and sent back. Later, he shot himself in the head in what seemed to be an attempt to transcend death through force of will.

Now, in the States, we take it for granted that certain officials carry guns, i.e. police and other law enforcement types. We assume that in the course of their duties that they may need to protect themselves or others with deadly force. This is the nature of their jobs. Is it truly in the nature of a musicians job to have the need for recourse to deadly force?

And for the record, I am not anti-gun, but I am in favor of VERY strong regulations for hidden carry permits.

Twayn, I respect your views. I must say, however, when seconds count, the police are usually ten minutes away. I don't want the only option being them coming to record what happened and put a toe tag on me.

On the lighter side (or brighter) of the subject...

I got more response out of this than expected..Thank you all for your responses, I know this wasnt the area to post this in b0b, but I was just curious. Thanks for all your views, and keepin it clean! haha..Take care my friends! Keep on a steelin'

Edit: Now just as I say keepin it clean, Mikey D had to share another with us! Sure do like that one!!

Brandon

You might never need a sh*t, but if you ever do, there is NO substitute........for soft toilet paper.

That's true, Arch...but over here we sometimes use corn cobs.

I could name time after time when the owner of a hand gun saved hinself and or members of his family by being armed. In my situation being attacked by four club and chain toting thugs, had it not been for my hand gun, I would have been severely beaten or possibly killed. The police were ten minutes away, but were able to apprehend the thugs from my conversation with the 911 operator. By the way, what these guys were doing is called "fishing" by the thug element. They slow to sometimes a stop to get you to pass the first time so they can see how many is in the car. They pass you and slow down again if they think you are an easy hit. When you start to pass, they run you off the road and attack you. Jody.

I think Jody just had the final word. He didn't stand a chance against 4-that's "four" armed thugs. No one was shot, but Jody became "sir" when the punks saw his .357. In almost all cases, just showing the punks that you aren't unarmed solves the problem. Punks that prey on others are after all cowards and looking for someone to bully.I once made a move that the punk understood and he moved on- nothing said,.45 never showed, but he knew that move wasn't normal unless I had a gun.

Twayn, I am truly saddened to read of your personal tragedies, but in every case you mentioned the shooter had a mental problem going on and would use whatever was handy anyway. One of my good friends became a serial rapist, tried to kill prostitutes with a rock, and ultimately hung himself in his cell. I'm just saying you can't blame an object for the evil of man.
In Nevada, not one concealed carry permit holder has been charged of a crime in a shooting by any D.A.Recently, our D.A was on the radio saying that he fully supports our right to carry because he knows that just like in Jody's incident, the police are only minutes away when you have seconds to decide to defend yourself or die.

As I stated before, one must take a class,shoot and qualify with every gun you want to carry, be fingerprinted and have an FBI background check before getting a Nevada CCW permit. That's lots of restrictions and so far it's working.

I PACK!!!! Nuff said.

phred

If the threat is enough to ward off a potential threat, then it stands to reason that a dummy handgun would suffice, at best a cap gun to really scare them off. It also removes the danger of having them apprehend your gun and shoot you. When you're packing, you're only one move away from getting killed yourself, especially if the altercation is close at hand. Your handgun is only your friend if it stays on your grip. If not, it becomes your enemy really fast.

I recently read a study in Men's Health magazine of the top 100 US dangerous cities for handguns. Baltimore was on the top of the list. Interestingly, many of the Texas cities were closer to the bottom of the list, except for Dallas which was up there.

the topic of this thread is "How many Musicians carry concealed"

It's a great topic because like stated earlier, we, the Musicians , travel late at night, into odd places and put ourselves into known hot spots. Awareness is excellent.


A concealed permit does not prevent people from shooting people, it cannot stop a person who has a handgun from shooting there unarmed friend, it cannot prevent kids from taking a rifle to school etc.. all that bad stuff. Twayn's stories above are horrific but I don't know how they relate to a legal permit.

A permit allows, by our USA constitution ,the right to carry a concealed handgun to protect yourself from the imminent threat of death, if it happens to find you.

Please throw the nonsense that a concealed handgun means you are looking to, or have the intent to kill someone. That you are looking for trouble. THAT description has nothing to do with the permit. That person can cause trouble with NO permit, and probably will.

This is a very charged debate, emotions run very high, both sides of the coin. Obtaining a permit doesn't make someone a bad guy or dangerous, it gives them the opportunity to be prepared for a real bad deal should they need to. Hopefully they don't need to, ever.

IF anything remember this, handgun training teaches how to avoid situations and stresses to be totally aware of your surroundings first. Not to pull the trigger first. Pulling the trigger is the very last end of the road, end of the earth option. One you hope you never ever get to. Pulling the trigger changes the life of both parties forever, obviously one will be worse than the other. It's not a game.

oh, and Chris, please refrain from ever pulling a fake gun...you may find you are threatening someone who has a 9mm in there pocket and does not know you have a fake gun. Bad ending.

Oh and additionally, if you pull a fake weapon during an incident where your LIFE was NOT in danger, You may be the one going to jail for brandishing a weapon. You may be spending a lot of money telling a courtroom full of people it was a fake gun you pulled on a common thief.

I was told as a child, by my Dad, "The two most useless things in the world are a dull knife and an unloaded gun"

Anyone who carry's has a large responsibility. You are always responsible for that bullet no matter where it stops. I spent some time in law enforcement many years ago and we were taught that if you have to pull your weapon, you better be prepaired mentaly to use it.
I've had my permit for about twelve years, and don't carry on my person as often as I used too when I rode Harley's a lot, I always have one in my vehicle and with the rash of home invasions in our area, I have one within reach when I'm in my recliner or bedroom. I would certainly rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it!!! ah

Ray,your father was a very wise man.
In Texas we have a law that removes the requirement of retreating before using deadly force. The force used must still be justified. The law also provides an affirmative defense against a civil suit for justified self defense and provides you can recover legal costs if they or their family sues and they lose. You must do the right thing, only use the force if there is no other recourse. Senate Bill 378.
I don't feel my instrument and what gear I have is too expensive, but being retired I would not be able to replace the said equipment without feeling a pinch or two. If I were in a position that I would have to decide if my equipment was worth enough to use "Deadly Force", I would still have to think that it was not worth the price of someones life. My familys safety or the safety of others is a different story all together. NO hesitation to prevent harm from bad guys if they were A Hs. That stands for agreesive and hostile. I like what Fred said...jr

Joe, that is exactly correct and I think common for most states if not all that issue permits.

RETREAT is the first course of action if at all possible.

and

Alan's comment regarding the bullet, you own it, forever, wherever it ends up. Another excellent addition to this discussion.

TTT

My father and both grandfathers told me the same when I was presented my first .22 single shot Remington on my #8 birthday. That was sure a long time ago. We all have pretty much the same feelings for the responsibility of owning a handgun and being licensed to carry and knowing the laws of our states. A good subject and good people contributing..jr

Joe,

I was 10 when given my first rifle, and the speeches about the responsibilities that went with it also from my Dad, Grand dad, uncles and so on.

Two years later I was allowed to go hunting with the adults. Not long after that I was allowed to hunt on my own. That was a big turning point in my life, getting the OK from the top, earning their respect.

I have been packing for over 40 years now. It has never in all that time entered my mind that I should go out and shoot someone that I didn't see eye to eye with, let alone donning a clown suit and heading to the mall with an assault rifle.

This is not the same world that I grew up in, and a lot of people I come in contact with these days are not of the same species that I was raised up with.

I don't know what to think when I hear about 5 and 6 year old kids taking handguns to school!

.....and, what has not been previously mentioned, is that the use of deadly force by a civilian with a carry permit is basically the same as when deadly force is used by law enforcement personnel. The user of deadly force by either is criminally liable if a non-deadly solution was available.

I haven't got a gun license, but I took up steel playing (instead of guitar) when I asked an old Steeler named Lou Houston why he preferred the instrument.
He said: "Three reasons- You get to sit down, there's someplace to set your drink, and if there is a fight you got a pound of iron in your fist!"

Brandon Ordoyne wrote:I got more response out of this than expected..Thank you all for your responses, I know this wasnt the area to post this in b0b, but I was just curious. Thanks for all your views, and keepin it clean! haha..Take care my friends! Keep on a steelin'

Edit: Now just as I say keepin it clean, Mikey D had to share another with us! Sure do like that one!!

Brandon

Bob did let this topic go much longer than some I had before, mine were always shot down because of arguments with a people who hate guns.If you ask me ,it`s very simple, if you hate guns don`t bash`em in someone elses topic where there is a discussion between people who collect guns,do sport shooting,competition shooting , carry gun`s or are pro-guns in general...just open your own topic about how much you hate handguns and I`m sure there will be more than enough people to join you...

Db

This has been one of the most enjoyable threads I've seen on the SGF. Fabulous feedback, facts, stories, and information to really think about. I own many handguns and long rifles... and use them often. Maryland is a real sissy state when it comes to the right to carry a weapon. I think only DC is worse. I am lucky enough to live on a farm where there is at least 1000 feet to the nearest public road. This distance is a requirement by Maryland law that permits me, the land owner, to carry an exposed sidearm while on my property. I shoot groundhog and raccoon while cutting the fields on my tractor. I have my wife and kids fire weapons often also. I would have no problem killing anyone that was a direct threat to the life of anyone in my family.... *after* the warning shot was fired, and they were inside my home.

NC law allows any resident to CARRY a firearm on there own property. No permit required for your own property. The laws regarding USE are still the same., LIFE threatening, extreme bodily harm or sexual assault.( rape)

NC permit law states a woman can use deadly force to protect herself during a sexual assault. It's about friggin' time. This became law in 1996. Only took 100 years...

there are plenty of female Musicians leaving the clubs at 2 am just like us guys.

gun`s kill people as much as fork makes Rossie O`Donnel fat....this was the one of the better ones I heard....

Db

Damir, You are a hoot....Twayn, I feel for you going thru the trauma of your fathers problems especially at 10 years of age.. I have had 2 members of my extended family who were involved in similar events and it is an everlasting memory for both. Both are adults and very protective of their families and grandkids and successful in their vocations. But, the event was never forgotten. Once again they got used to living with the memory.One even plays the fiddle and sings at nursing homes, church etc.Says it is good therapy.....jr

Joe Rouse wrote:Twayn, I feel for you going thru the trauma of your fathers problems especially at 10 years of age.

Thanks, but I'm tough and have suffered no lasting trauma. The point of my stories is that the person who carries the gun for protection can easily become the person who becomes the aggressor. The issue of gun carry is very complex and has multiple levels.

The main problem I have with handguns is that it is so easy to kill someone with them. Far harder to do with, say, a hammer. My older brother's second wife came after him with a hammer once out of the blue. Quite a shock for him, let me tell you! They were divorced very quickly and she spent time in an institution afterwards. If he'd had a gun in the house, there's a good possibility that she may have come after him with the gun instead of the hammer!

I do think most people who carry guns probably shouldn't, but I also think it's a sad fact that in this country there are some who probably should. I don't have the answers, but I do think that reasoned debate on the issue is healthy.

I personally wouldn't carry a gun, but I do carry a knife. I use it to cut cardboard boxes and bananas. If I needed to, I could use it to cut people, but I've never been driven to it. A knife is a tool that can be used as a weapon, whereas a gun is ONLY a weapon.