ok guys lets help out the newbies

[Chris LeDrew]

James, I think you bring up a very interesting point. There is underlying advice within the arguments against an easy fix. There is no easy way to learn.

Bobbe Seymour once gave me some of the best advice when I was trying to figure out a mechanical issue with a guitar I bought from him. He simply told me to "get under it and figure it out". At first I was taken aback, thinking that he should be able to instruct me as to exactly what was going on and that I deserved to be told the exact fix. But after taking his advice and just getting under it, I've figured out for myself what is going on underneath there and how to fix something on my own. I'm now thankful that Bobbe forced me to confront these issues alone. The same goes for playing. Like someone mentioned earlier about John Hughey saying: "Just keep playing. It will all come together".

Good advice.

[James Sission]

Don Said: You see folks, that's the kind of help you'd get from guys such as Bernie Strub, if you'd only be willing to take their advice.

Just for information. I had a most pleasant email correspondence with Mr. Strub this morning. He was kind enough to expand on his comments about chord locations in great detail for me. What he taught me this morning opened new doors for me and he taught me something that has been right in my face for the last 3 years and I failed to capitalize on it. PLEASE guys....IF you think these players dont know what they are talking about, then just ignore them, but please, let's dont discourage them from sharing information with us.....James

[James Morehead]

A little advice: Be careful that you don't work harder arguing about something, than the actual work it would take to just go ahead and learn it.

[Don Brown, Sr.]

[tab]
"No Pedals & No Knee Levers"
"C" Major Two Note & Triad Cords on 1st Fret
Bar on 1st Fret E9th Neck
"C"
1st Cord
Fret "C" Major Two Note String Grips Triads
---- --------------------------------------------- -------------------
1 G 1 1 1 | 1 1 |
2 E 2 . . 2 2 2 | 2 2 2 2 |
3 A . . . . . | . . . . |
4 F . . . . . | . . . . |
5 C 5 . 5 . . 5 | 5 . 5 . |
6 A . . . . | . . . |
7 G . 7 . 7 7 | . 7 7 |
8 F . . . | . . |
9 D# . . . | . . |
10 C 10 10 10 | 10 10 |
---- --------------------------------------------- -------------------
Note: Unison Notes are NOT included, but could be played!
Remember! This is the "F" No Pedal Position 1st Fret Barred.
Add Strings 3 or 6 to Voice a C6th Cord.
[/tab]

Example of using the chromatic strings as well. The point is, although this is done in the barred "F" position, using no pedals nor no knee levers, an example of the versatility, showing only the "C" two string and three string cord groups you can play right there, as well as many, many other cords. Once again, where simply a little theory will take you a long way, for the ones who REALLY want to get there. Although "possibly" a little too far advanced for players just starting out, others may find it to be useful, and remember you can save it for later use when you will want to know it.

Also worth mentioning, never forget you can also use the Unison notes (IE: two C's two G's etc.) along with the two note partials to get some really great sounding voicings. Add an "A" note (Strings 3 or 6) and you'll have a C6th voicing as well.

I'll be moving it shortly, so it doesn't cause anymore problems. Don

[Calvin Walley]

Don

thats a nice layout

[Dick Sexton]

Don,
Thank you for not giving up on this thread. The information you share is invaluable. About 3300 steelers interested in what you, Tony and the other seasoned players care to share with us. Thank you.

[James Morehead]

Thanx Dick Sexton, for starters.

More folks need to get on here and show a little appreciation for these seasoned guys taking the time to share something they are NOT obligated to show.

[Bent Romnes]

PLEASE guys....IF you think these players dont know what they are talking about, then just ignore them, but please, let's dont discourage them from sharing information with us.....James

James you are right on the money.

Never mind that I sound like a broken record, but...

It is so important to be on the good side of these pros who give so freely of themselves. Their patience is limitless; their love for the steel guitar shines through.
Again, I want to remind those of you on this thread who have been less than respectful and nice to these people, send the guy an email and make up for your unkind words. You see, you are slowly wrecking things for us who truly value their input.
Bent

[Calvin Walley]

i hope this thread has helped some
i will be leaving Saturday and will be gone
for quite a while

so keep it up fellas

[Richard Sinkler]

Calvin, I hope your leave is for a vacation and finds you in good health.

By the way, I found the link for the Guitar Map program. It is:
http://home.comcast.net/~k.abolins/guitarmap.html

There is a link to download the file.

[Calvin Walley]

Richard

i have to leave for business
and will be gone for quite awhile

thanks for asking

[Don Brown, Sr.]

[tab]
"For the new players"

Notice: The OPEN notes are the same as they are at the 12th fret!
They are one Octave higher in pitch, for each of the 10 strings.
Each String also starts out a brand new "Chromatic" scale. (The
Chromatic Scale covers all 12 notes) as opposed to Major scales,
that we only use 7 of the 12 notes in. The Chromatic scale ends
at the 11th fret, even though there are 12 musical notes in it.
That is only because of the open position being as "0" (Zero) so
counting 11 Fretted notes + the Open Position, you have the full
12 notes ending on the 11th fret. The 12th fret, starts the new
Chromatic Scale all over again. Which is called an "OCTAVE" and
As such, the 12 fret starts the "E9th all over again" Fret 13 is
again another "F" positon one octive higher, and so on up the neck.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

E-9th Fret Numbers
Strings
Open 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
==== ==========================================================
1. F# G G# A A# B C C# D D# E F F#
2. D# E F F# G G# A A# B C C# D D#
3. G# A A# B C C# D D# E F F# G G#
4. E F F# G G# A A# B C C# D D# E
5. B C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B
6. G# A A# B C C# D D# E F F# G G#
7. F# G G# A A# B C C# D D# E F F#
8. E F F# G G# A A# B C C# D D# E
9. D D# E F F# G G# A A# B C C# D
10. B C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B
==== ==========================================================


These strings: 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, can be played Open with No Pedals,
or With A&B Pedals Down, or with the "A & F" (A Pedal & F knee) as well
as many other combinations. Experiment and listen to what you hear.
Pick Any combination of them as in the Below: I might add that when first
learning to play, I loved hearing the tone of the 5 & 8 string combo for
whatever reason, it simply has a great tone value to me.

E 9th Popular Grips: 3, 4, 5 4, 5, 6 5, 6, 8 6, 8, 10
3, 4. 6 4, 5, 8 5, 6, 10
3, 4, 8 4, 5, 10 5, 8, 10
3, 4, 10 4, 6, 8
3, 5, 6 4, 6, 10
3, 5, 8 4, 8, 10
3, 5, 10
3, 6, 8
3, 6, 10
3, 8, 10

For the new players: the most popular to start out playing are the following
groups of strings on the E9th neck:

3, 4
3, 5
3, 4, 5
4, 5
4, 6
4, 5, 6
5, 6
5, 8
5, 6, 8
6, 8
6, 10
6, 8, 10

And yes, you can use any of the combinations that you choose as well.
[/tab]

I'd like to point out also, that from the above, you can take any of the 10 strings, and start out on the open position and write out the major scale from the chart above of the E9th neck.

Here's how. I'll use the open 4th string E or 8th string E, it doesn't matter which one. Get a piece of paper and write across the page, the following:

Note: "Keep following that E string during all of this, up the neck."

Find the E under the open string and write it down.
That will be your #1 or Root note for the scale of E Major. Write E down and place a #1 to the top of it.

Follow the E string to the 2nd fret which should be F#.. Write it to the right of E and mark it with a #2 over top of it..

Go up to the 4th fret and you should now have a G#, write it down to the right of F#, and then mark a #3 over top of it.

Go to the 5th fret and you should see it's an "A" note. Write it down with a #4 to the top of it.

Go to the 7th fret you should now see a "B" note. Write it down, and place #5 over top of it.

Go to the 9th fret, you should see a C#, write it down and place a #6 to the top of it.

Go to the 11th fret and you should see a D# write it down and place a #7 over it.

Guess what! You just wrote out the E Major scale, complete with the numbers above.

The E Major Triad Cord (3 note cord) is made up of the notes that have the numbers, #1 Being the Root (name of the cord) the #3, is the 3rd. and the #5 is the 5th. There you have the E Major Cord E, G#, and B notes! Now wasn't that easier than first thought to be? Be honest!.

However, I had you write down the conventional numbers. But you could have just a easily written them out in the numbering system format. such as in using Roman Numerals. "I, II, III, IV, V, VI, & VII"

So remember: The "1st, 3rd, and the 5th" tones are the notes used to form the Major Cord. The 6th tone is also number 6 or VI, and the 7th tone is the #7 or VII..

Now you can also, if you like, go to the 12th fret and write that E down on the end of your scale you just made, in order to include the Octave. But in the actual scale, there are only 7 notes and not 8. The 8th tone is the Octave.

Also, for the standard cord progression, you can take the numbers you wrote down, and where the Cord is the 1, 3, 5 of the scale, the standard Cord Progression, will be the 1, 4, 5 of the Major scale.

So as you can see that would make playing in the Key or "E" standard cord progression Cords: E, A, & B.

If anyone cares to proof read this, please do so, as I've been up all night and can barely think straight. And it would be appreciated to make sure of no mistakes in typing errors. Thanks Don.

[Bent Romnes]

Hear hear! What Don showed us here is the basics needed in musical theory for pedal steel.
Even if you find theory unnecessary or boring, this is a minimum of what you need to know. So newbies in particular, print off this post and study it at your steel.

Don, what you lay out is so plain and easy to grasp.
Have you also taught a lot of pedal steel?
Thanks man.
Bent

[John Roche]

For an newbie it's overload.

[Matt Chase]

I was a bit reluctant to get involved in this thread, but we seem to be back on track to some really good stuff!
A rather long question for the pros who are kind enough to lend their advice. Do you reference what you play out of positions (such as AB down), or do you reference everything against the no-pedals position?
Let me explain: If you are playing an A chord in the no-pedals position, 5th fret you obviously visualise the effect that each lever/pedal will have on triads that are in a straight line (I visualise a little line going up or down from the bar position).
If, however, you are playing an A chord in the AB down position, 12th fret, do you think of this as a straight line reference position for any pedal/lever changes, or are you thinking of the no-pedals position that already has 3 and 6 up a semitone and 5 and 10 up a tone? To put it another way, if I asked you to fool around improvising in A major at the 12th fret, could you guys do it without using the A and B pedals? Do you see the notes as they are in the no-pedals position?
I ask because I navigate with triads on the 6-string guitar. To do the same on the pedal steel seems very difficult unless you think out of set positions (in my case no-pedal, AB down, AF) that are interlinked across the neck. As a rank beginner, if you asked me to play inversions of an A triad at 12th fret, it would be simple with the AB pedals down. To play those same notes with no pedals, however, would require me to slowly think through the effect of each pedal in terms of how it changes the straight line of the pedals down triads.
Sorry if the question seems obscure/longwinded, but I actually think it has a big effect on how some newbies like me approach the instrument.
Matt

[Don Brown, Sr.]

Hi Bent, to honestly answer your question on my teaching. I can't say that I've actually taught much. I didn't really have time, as I was playing most every night one place or another. But yes. I taught a couple the basics to get them started off in the right direction, and on their way. That's about it though.

It's much harder via way of the Internet, than it would be in person. But the Internet, such as Bob's site here, has really opened the door to many, on information, that many of us in this portion of the country never had available to us when starting out.

I believe Bob deserves a ton of credit for putting up such a place for all to come and share.

Thanks again, for your kind words as well.

Don

[Don Brown, Sr.]

Wow Matt, that is one hard question to answer. But I'll tell you why that is. Learning to play you have time to think of all that stuff. After you learn, to play, and are playing live, you don't have time to think of any of that. The reason being, everything is like auto pilot, and there aren't any set things in mind at all. We probably think more of exactly how we want it to sound, and since all of that may well have been during the learning process, but again, if we were to be thinking of where we were going from this place to that and how we were going to get there, we'd all be failures at best.

In a studio, the same deal goes. Since we've already played long enough to simply know where things are, it's again, simply automatic pilot.

However, I'll leave this one open, as I'm certain someone will come and have something to better help you out.

It's like yourself, if you've been playing 6 string guitar in a live situation, I'm quite certain then you can better understand what I'm saying. You simply know where the different positions and sounds are, and the same, you're on auto pilot.

But again, I'm sure someone here can help you better on that one. Or maybe I just didn't quite comprehend what you were asking.

PS: I reread your post and I can't answer for others, but I can say no! I never have referenced any straight line from anywhere to anywhere, not in my learning, nor in my playing. I simply learned all of the many different combinations, and there are so many different ways of getting to Point B from point A, that none of that took place in any of my playing. That, I'm certain of. But again, that's only me, I have no idea at all how others feel about it.

Don

[Dale Lee]

What Matt asked but with a little different twist.

When playing/improvising by ear, do some of you prefer, on one hand, the AB-down position as your "home" position or on the other hand the no-pedals (or AF) position as your "home" position.

I know, to a skilled player either is equally comfortable, but still maybe there are preferences.

I hope this question makes sense (it does to me).

[Don Brown, Sr.]

John R., Go back and read what I said before drawing conclusions as to it being overload.

There are people on here that are not simply new folks too.

Go back and read the Small Portion that I said was for the New Players. The easier string grips.

I'm really beginning to believe that there is no satisfying everyone on everything. So why is it, that folks are so willing to condemn someone who at least is doing more to try to help, than the one's who sit back and complain about it not being this or not being that.

I don't believe that New Players are quite as slow as a lot of folks would otherwise feel they were. I've taught brand new people (two) who never played anything before, and nothing was over their heads. Give the New People a little more credit, as at least being human beings. God put the same brain in their heads that he did me.

That would be the same as saying that in school, teaching them the ABC's was too much for small 5 year olds to ever comprehend.. Well then, how did they? Would they ever have if it had not been a mandatory thing to learn? These New People are much brighter than a few who are doing the complaining.

Yours truly

Don

[Don Brown, Sr.]

Dale, again, I can only answer for myself. And that answer would be, I in particular, would have to say no, to any preferences. Any place is as good as any other. But I can say, that more than likely, it wouldn't be an AF position, if that helps.

Don

[Matt Chase]

Thanks for the reply Don. It is a very tough question, but it does make a big difference to how to approach this instrument. I guess when people say they are 'playing out of a position' it means that they have reset their baseline to incorporate those pedal changes. The straight line I was talking about is the bar, and as Joe Wright says, pedals and levers bring the notes to the bar, and this is something that can be visualised.

I know that as a pro muso you just play what you hear in your head with no thought to the underlying process, and that is a truly extraordinary feat for someone who plays an instrument as complex as this.

If I could get inside your brain while you play (scary for both of us!), I'm sure there would be a visual or pattern-based framework or scaffolding of some sort that you use to navigate around the instrument, even if you're not consciously aware of it (and even if your eyes are closed). Otherwise you would be able to jump on a steel tuned to any random notes, and quickly play the music you hear in your head.

I have the good fortune of knowing a couple of very, very good pro six-string guitarists, and I've asked them similar questions, and initially have gotten a similar answer-they just play what they hear without analysing it. When we work through it a bit, however, there is a very simple foundation to the way they approach the instrument. It is usually something as simple as relating things back to basic major and minor triads and intervals. When I first realised this, after 20 years of playing and numerous books on theory, chords, scales etc, it was a revelation and transformed my playing. I knew all the complex stuff, but relating it back to the simple stuff made it work musically. It amazed me that this isn't what is taught straight up instead of licks and tricks.

This is the sort of kernel of info I'm looking for for the pedal steel. It's not a quick-fix panacea, but rather the absolute foundation of how you pros approach this instrument. I'm guessing it's probably very similar to how these 6-string guys approach their instruments, but there are a few extra obstacles (known as pedals and levers!) on the pedal steel that seem to make things way more complex.

Sorry for my windbaggery,
Matt

[Calvin Walley]

Matt

i not sure if i understood your question
but most ( not all ) think of C
8th fret no pedals
as home
that way they can go up or down on the fret board for the voicing they want

[Steve Norman]

I usually think of the key center as the no pedals position.

Key of "A" I kind of base my stuff off of fret 5, since all of your chords in the key can be played there with only the pedals and string grips.

-to add more dynamics I would switch up to the 12th fret, using open 10 as my IV chord, and open 12 as my
V chord and 12ab as the I chord.

-to add even more dynamics I would us a/f positions 4 frets up from all the open positions as this fills in a lot of the neck.

Most of my licks go up and down the bar, most of my chord coloring goes up and down the neck. depending on the song.

For minors I prefer the a pedal position and the same chord as ab down on strings 876, 5 frets down from the a pedal position. To my ear these are the prettiest minors

-F#minor: a pedal on fret 5 = ab down fret 12(stings 876).

what I like to do also is think of the chords in the key as numbers and assign pedal combos to them

on 6 sting guitar I use the root note on string 6 as a launching point, or I use 4 frets down from the root position(relative minor) depending on what the song calls for. there are 7 launch points on the 6th string of a 6string guitar (not including octaves), but for my tastes there are typically only 3 I like to use. for key of G: fret 3(key center) fret 12 and the open 6th string(relative minor), and fret 7( prhyigian). I just link these together for really big runs possibilities.

the way theory clicked for me was playing along with 8 bar blues progressions I recorded on the guitar.

in g

gmajor, cmajor, d major.

then I played the g major scale over the recorded progression. I would then play the scale in more than one position and in different order. after awhile I noticed there where certain notes in the g major scale that worked better than others. By breaking down the g major scale notes on the entire neck into little chunks I started to see a pattern that could be moved around like a little cookie cutter for different keys.

So I had 8 bar I IV V progressions in the bag. Later I added minor chord to the progression. I didnt know what minor chords to use so I just picked some that sounded correct. The scales still held, and the songs where richer. A friend of mine that knew theory told me those chords where correct for the key. It turns out the people who invented theory noticed that some chords and notes sound good together.

So I learned what is called a harmonized scale.

This gives you 7 basic chords for a key,3 major, 3 minor, and one screwy one I never really found a use for. So now I have 2 great tools to use in accompanying songs. All I have to do is figure out what key the song is in, and I can noodle away with the scales all over the song (your job as a lead guitarist can stop here if you from Seattle).

For Steel I assigned pedal positions over the key center for all of the chords.

in C on the 8th fret:

C = I = open with the correct strings
Dm = II = bc down with the correct strings,
and ab down strings 876
Em = III= string 4 lowered (LKR on mine)
F = IV = ab down on the correct strings
G = V = my 6 lower and my 4 lower (LKR and RKL)
or string 1,2, and 5 open
Am = VI = a down with the right strings
I never use chord VII in the bands I play with so I dont know any position without moving the bar.


This was all I need for really simple songs to get started. Learning to finger pick and only hit the correct strings was and sometimes still is my nightmare.

Now I have at least 3 different positions for all these chords, learned by getting 2 positions for a major,(open strings and ab down) and 2 positions for a minor ( pedal a and ab down 876), then adding more positions.

then I figured out 3 positions for I IV V in various keys. (this fills in the neck well)

It just keeps building

this works well for me

If I had a raw beginner I would teach them about tuning, wearing picks, changing strings etc, and a song they want to learn thats not to complicated just to get the mechanics of playing in their head.

And then:
-Learn what a scale is
-Learn what a key is,
-Learn the appropriate major scale for a key and learn to play it over a I IV V,
-Learn the harmonized scale,
-apply all of this to Improvising over a chord progression so it ties into the real world.

all the while making sure pick blocking and cross picking are emphasized

I learned to play the way a lot of people are advocating. I learned a bunch of songs on the six string before I noticed they all had certain patterns to them. I reverse learned theory just to explain to myself what these patterns are. I would be so much more advanced now if I had learned my theory right off.

Simple tools,
Scales = all the notes available,
Chords = all the combinations of notes available

thats all you really need to get going on most songs you'll want to learn.

I hope some of this makes sense,,

sorry for the long rambling posts in this thread

[Richard Sinkler]

To put it another way, if I asked you to fool around improvising in A major at the 12th fret, could you guys do it without using the A and B pedals?

Absolutely

When I play, I am on auto pilot as Don says. I know the fret where a chord can be found with and without pedals. I also know where additional scale tones are above and below the fret. Example being 12th fret, A&B pedals down. 3rd and 6th strings 2 frets up give a B note, part of the scale. 5th string up one fret gives a D, part of the scale. Etc...

The straight line I was talking about is the bar, and as Joe Wright says, pedals and levers bring the notes to the bar, and this is something that can be visualised.

While this is true, don't limit yourself to thinking that this is all there is to it. Remember that there are more scale notes around the fret, and these are very useful for moving from one fret to another (passing notes) whether it be to another chord or the same chord in a different postion (different or no pedals). Don't be afraid to move the bar around.

know that as a pro muso you just play what you hear in your head with no thought to the underlying process, and that is a truly extraordinary feat for someone who plays an instrument as complex as this.

With time and experience, you too will be able to do this. Same as with any instrument.

As a new player (not directed to anyone in particular), if you think what Don posted is overload, you are in for a rough ride in your learning experience. His postings are very basic. The just look complicated (and sometimes scary ). It is a wealth of information and I agree that new players should print it out and refer to it often.

When playing/improvising by ear, do some of you prefer, on one hand, the AB-down position as your "home" position or on the other hand the no-pedals (or AF) position as your "home" position.

No preference. I do hear in my head what I might want to play, and knowing what sounds are made by what pedals in all the positions, I select the position from that info. Another bit of advice, not only learn what notes or the number of steps a pedal will affect, learn the sound of the change so you know where to find that sound when you hear that sound in your head.

[Steve Norman]

one last elaboration:


learning ONE SCALE

and SEVEN CHORDS

and how to move them around to different keys


teaches you THOUSANDS of songs

what better foundation is there?