The Steel Guitar Forum

Keith Hilton wrote: Don't know why, but most standard 6 string guitar players are fascinated with fooling aournd with a pedal steel guitar. Their approach is to try and transpose what they know on their 6 string guitar to a pedal steel guitar. A real steel guitar player can easily tell the difference between a REAL pedal steel guitar player, and a standard 6 string guitar player who is fooling around on pedal steel.
There is nothing wrong with a standard 6 string guitar player fooling around with a pedal steel. The important thing to remember is to have fun. It takes all the fun out when you start condemning and judging what others do with their music. What Jerry Garcia played on steel was commercial, and sold to the public, and that is all that matters. It would be difficult for a REAL steel player to try and copy what Jerry played. The reason being Jerry took a standard 6 string guitar players approach to the pedal steel. In most cases it won't work, but it worked for Jerry, and people liked it. As for me I would rather listen to a REAL steel player.

Ahhh distinctions. Always good to segregate folks and make sure they know who they are... of course, within all the 'accepting' thoughts of what others might do... we remind them that what they do isn't real... and we all kinda know that real = valid... everything else is, well, not real.

Cool. I'll happily head to the back of the bus, the smell is better anyway.

well, for anyone who thinks Jerry couldn't cut it on steel: I'd like to hear you play what jer did on "Teach Your Children", "Dire Wolf", "High Time", "Brokedown Palace", the first NRPS album and more. The guy had serious touch.

and i still absolutely love this Dylan clip!

how many of you are in the rock and roll hall of fame.


take it easy on the man

Jerry's inspiration to play was Tom Brumley after he heard "Together Again".

Keith Hilton wrote:What Jerry Garcia played on steel was commercial, and sold to the public, and that is all that matters. It would be difficult for a REAL steel player to try and copy what Jerry played. The reason being Jerry took a standard 6 string guitar players approach to the pedal steel. In most cases it won't work, but it worked for Jerry, and people liked it. As for me I would rather listen to a REAL steel player.

Actually, I'd say it would be hard to copy not because it isn't "real steel", but rather because Jerry Garcia was an extraordinary musical genius (you may disagree), and a very disciplined player with a highly refined technique (I hope you don't disagree with THAT!). There's a lot more to what he did, on six string or steel or banjo or whatever, than just licks and technique.

"Teach Your Children Well" may not be the most technically sophisticated steel guitar playing ever, but it's a MARVELOUS melody... clever, swinging, surprising, and deeply memorable. I don't care what instrument you play, VERY few musicians could come up with such a musically satisfying solo. When it gets down to it, instruments and technique are not an end in themselves, only a means to an end. A deep musician with average technique will almost always play better than an average musician with deep technique.

As for what's hard about it... if you listen to "Teach Your Children Well", the difficult part to reproduce is the incredible swing he put on the melody! Getting the right notes is relatively easy; getting the right timing takes real discipline. And that sort of swinging melodic sense is no easier on a six-string than it is on a pedal steel. If you hit all those sixteenths and grace notes square, you'll sound stiff and jerky. Jerry could do it for two reasons - first, he was a truly gifted musician. Second, he practiced long and hard to be able to play on the strings what he could hear in his head. Having tried (and failed) to play swing-time things I could hear in my head, I can appreciate his hard work!

So was he a great pedal steel player? No, and he never claimed to be. Was he a great MUSICIAN? Absolutely.

Thank you, Dave...excellent post!

darn it!

again

Bill Hatcher wrote:

Keith Hilton wrote:

As for me I would rather listen to a REAL steel player.

Whoa!! That is an interesting statement.

Would you care to elaborate on what a REAL steel player is.

Yeah. I hope Keith doesn't mean it's a steel player who doesn't play any other instruments...? That would leave out a lot of great players, besides being an incredibly narrow point of view. Many great musicians play multiple instruments. Buddy Emmons plays bass and who knows what else... Curly Chalker played trumpet when he was young and also played 6-string guitar.

OK, to give the benefit of the doubt, I think Keith only meant REAL to mean not a player of another instrument who's a dabbler on the steel, but it just came out wrong, maybe.

I would still consider segregating "REAL steel players" from others is in poor taste and/or an unfortunate choice of words.

Oh well.

Either they can play, or they can't and that's subjective and pretty hard to nail down (as these JG threads prove time and time again) anyway.

Actually, I aspire to his playing on "Tomorrow...."
If I could just play like that... now that'd be a real steel player.

It seems to me that in any art there are 2 aspects to being a,"Great," artist. One is technical expertise. Many artists get so absorbed in technique that they forget aspect #2.
The second aspect is in touching other people with the product of that technique.
When it comes to playing steel, Mr. Garcia was NOT one of the greats in area number one, though he was adequate. It was in area number two that he seems to have greatly excelled. Hooray for him, I say. Why should there be any problems or disagreement about that?

O.K., most of you are "off-topic", maybe caught up in an older discussion.
The question was “Why did Jerry quite playing steel?”
I started this thread not to bash Jerry but to comment on how bad that clip is and to find out why he didn't embrace the steel guitar like he did rock&roll guitar. Was it money, too stoned, not sexy enough, too old, or what

Thank you, Edward Meisse, now you have provided the TWO best posts in this entire thread, IMHO. In an ideal world, this last one would be the last word.

But I JUST POSTED. D'OH!!!!!



Edit: I see Garry got in before I could. He's right, of course--95% of this thread is off-topic!

Still, great posts, Mr. Meisse.

Garry Vanderlinde wrote: O.K., most of you are "off-topic", maybe caught up in an older discussion.
The question was “Why did Jerry quite playing steel?”
I started this thread not to bash Jerry but to comment on how bad that clip is and to find out why he didn't embrace the steel guitar like he did rock&roll guitar. Was it money, too stoned, not sexy enough, too old, or what

because he didn't want to be saddled with being a 'real' steel player, I think he'd rather be an 'unreal' musician.

Garry Vanderlinde wrote: O.K., most of you are "off-topic", maybe caught up in an older discussion.
The question was “Why did Jerry quite playing steel?”
I started this thread not to bash Jerry but to comment on how bad that clip is and to find out why he didn't embrace the steel guitar like he did rock&roll guitar. Was it money, too stoned, not sexy enough, too old, or what

Actually, Jerry was very clear on why he stopped playing steel. He said it would take another lifetime to get good at it, since you couldn't treat it as "some weird brain-damaged guitar" (almost a quote, I think), and since he couldn't spend the time to get good with the other demands (like the Dead and Old and In the Way and the Jerry Garcia Band and and and..) it was better if he put it aside. I think he said it deserved real attention if he was going to do it. I'm sure he only played it in the clip because Dylan asked him to, because he almost never played it after the mid-70's or so.

-eric

yup what Eric said.

just one instance of him saying as much from the interview linked below, but there are numerous others where he says pretty much the same thing.

Garcia: Right ... that's the way I feel about it. I feel that way because I don't feel I'm that good a pedal steel player a) and b) it's just impossible for me to divide my attention consistently and expect to be really good at it.

http://muthergrumble.co.uk/issue05/mg0523.htm

I find it rather odd that he would exclude all other instruments for the sake of such a focus on guitar as I read he was really into banjo as well. I Kinda admire that dedication and focus from someone who already has a high level of mastery.

Guitar Player interview, Oct 1978:

"What is your relationship with the pedal steel guitar these days?

I haven't played it much for quite a while, though I played it pretty steadily for about four years. I really got into it, but it kind of became an either/or situation: I found it very hard to play half the night with a pedal steel and a bar in my left hand and then switch to straight overhand guitar. The difference between a solid finger configuration and a moving arm, wrist, and fingers was too great. It was painful to the muscles. It got to where I couldn't play either of them very well, and I realized it just wouldn't work. I don't consider myself a pedal steel player, and I'm always embarrassed to see that I've placed in the Guitar Player poll."

A second-hand story from a long time ago: A friend of mine was at a party in the Bay area back in 1970 or so. Some of the Dead were there, others. Jerry was sitting on an upside down bucket. My friend goes up to him and says he's interested in learning to play pedal steel, asks him if it's fun to play, etc. Jerry looked up, grinned and said, "Man, it's the grooviest instrument in the world...just be prepared to spend a lifetime trying to figure it out!"

I stand by what I said, and I said it with respect for Jerry and his steel guitar playing. I happen to love Robert Randolf's playing, and I also love Buddy Emmons playing. I go to a lot of steel guitar shows where a high percentage of the players are trying to sound exactly like Buddy Emmons. That gets really boring. What if everyone played exactly like Buddy Emmons, and there was no variety? Now about my reference to someone being a REAL steel player; All to often show producers in Nashville, Branson, and Las Vegas are looking for a young pretty face. Just a warm body sitting behind a steel guitar. For these producers, a young pretty face on stage means a lot more than the person's ability to play pedal steel guitar. For one of these shows in Nashville, Branson, and Las Vegas, if you sing, tap dance, and play "AT" 10 different instruments, you are hired over a great steel player who has devoted his entire life on the pedal steel guitar. I remember what a Hall of Fame Steel player said when Vince Gill was looking for a steel player, and finally hired John Hughey. I over heard him say, "Thank goodness he hired a REAL steel player instead of a pretty face". I suppose to me, a Real steel player means the person spends more time on the pedal steel than he does on other instruments, and is a terrible tap dancer. I'm not seeing many old, ugly, great steel players on T.V. with these young hot singers. Many of the young hot singers have great steel players, but I would like to see some of the old ugly great players on T.V. once in a while.

But Keith, if there aren't young players coming up and getting good work, pretty-faced or not, eventually there won't be any steel players at all!

"Real" steel player... "real' steel player.....

hmmm.
If you can play steel guitar
in Tune/ in Time/ in tone/ in Taste.. you are a "REAL" steel player... PERIOD !
Fierce,Ferocous,Frightening chops are optional..

God Bless old Jeff Newman for his statement which I paraphrase here.. "Nobody gives a sh-t if you are a hot steel player".... a priceles gem of perfect logic and wisdom from the greatest steel guitar teacher of all time....

by the definition implied previously, I and many others here do not qualify as "real" steel players, yet the people that pay me[and multiple thosands of other average players] to play it are certain we are "real" players, despite not having world class ability.




Jerry Garcia was CERTAINLY a real steel player... again as posted earler, you need to listen to more of Jerry's work.. The Wheel is a great piece of steel playing.. simple and elegant... Sugar Magnolia too...Change Partners by Stills??.. NO ONE could have done that song any better,,, it was perfection for THAT tune.
Therein lies the key.. musicality, NOT virtuosity....

He was NOT of course one of the "Greats".. that qualification is reserved for a very small rarified group.. a select few.. Jerry was quite capable but was NOT a virtuoso... most rational players here should be able to discern that fact and accept it... bob

It would be difficult for a REAL steel player to try and copy what Jerry played. The reason being Jerry took a standard 6 string guitar players approach to the pedal steel. In most cases it won't work,

and I said it with respect for Jerry and his steel guitar playing.

And now you're backpedaling, Keith - and <b>IT</b> won't work. You decide to proclaim who is or is not a "real" steel" player, then either back it up or say "I was wrong"...don't make lame excuses by trying to throw RR into the mix or make Buddy Emmons references. You said what you said - and, like many others, continue this crap that creates a "them" and" us" attitude around here.

I suppose to me, a Real steel player means the person spends more time on the pedal steel than he does on other instruments, and is a terrible tap dancer.

More drivel. I'll be sure to spend my money on products made by someone who wants business from musicians - and doesn't attempt to decide for us who the "real" ones on particular instruments are.

I'm not a "real" steel player by your definition - so I'm not qualified to buy your toys. Seems like that would also apply to just about every other multi-instrumentalist on here - of which there are probably more than Keith Hilton-designated "real" steel players.

Please be sure you prequalify your customers. You don't want us "fake" steel players giving your products a bad name, do you?

In most cases it won't work,

I repeated that quote because it's the biggest load of crap I've read on here in along time. Just when it seemed things had settled down a bit, Someone has to categorize the "real" players and start this all up again. What, pray tell, is this "it" that "won't work" - and in what context?

Thanks Mr. Hilton, for proving once again how provincial and "private-club-like" much of this forum really is.

Ahh, here it goes...

The fate of this thread as another death-spiral has just been sealed.

Duane - thank Keith. And your comments just add to it. Again.

There is no need for such attacks. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on the subject. Let's not get personal about it.

This topic has been a dead horse for 3 pages now. I'm closing it.