The Steel Guitar Forum

Posted: **24 May 2003 6:50 pm**

Speak for yourself when it comes to valid analysis

Too many hours in Physics, Chemistry and Mathematics courses (taking and teaching them) I quess ...

I'm not looking at the roots, I'm looking at the modal names alone and there direction of movement relative to the nut and the bridge of each instrument. You as yet, have not done this?

Thats the problem ... you must have a common point of reference to compare the spanish to C6 tunings. ...

Either keep the Root on the Low strings of both spanish and C6 tunings and compare the names/movement ...

OR ...

keep the same "fingering" on the spanish guitar (as with the bar on steel) and track its name/movement.

Either way, it will show you that they are indeed moving and named the same.

Not only have I addressed this .. I gave charts for each.[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 25 May 2003 at 10:01 AM.]

Posted: **24 May 2003 7:04 pm**

Art is not an exact science, there are no limits in Art like there is in math. The rules in music can always be broken, but it sure is nice to see it in black and white too. Rick, I respect your brain O.K.

*Gees Rick, I have done it your way already, why do you think I agree with you on that? I was only trying to show you how the "order of the mode names by themselves" are headed in different directions "nut to bridge" for the guitar vs. the steel. I know which way the roots and pitch are going math wise and I agree with you on that again. [This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 25 May 2003 at 03:00 PM.]

Posted: **24 May 2003 7:13 pm**

You say that tonight ... but will you in the morning ...

Posted: **24 May 2003 9:45 pm**

Rick,

Regarding your:

Too many hours in Physics, Chemistry and Mathematics courses (taking and teaching them) I quess ...

As Mick Jagger said on Ya-Ya's as he watched Altamont unfolding: "Ohhhhhhhhh Babies.....". Now that's how I feel reading your "physics" background. I have been gnawing at the bit for several years to find a Physics teacher to bander about some theoretical phsysics to fill in allot of blanks in C^2 relative velocities ideas I've been pondering. You're in trouble now; ... maybe by email, huh? (as in PLEASE).

ALOHA,
DT~

Posted: **25 May 2003 1:14 am**

Great minds think alike and often get in each other face in a big way... LOL
Play nice kids !!
It's ok that you have different views on the same thing.. I think it's more a semantics and art issue than the actual theory involved.

Can A look at B from A
and C looking at B from C
and still see it the same way.

A might see West B
and C might see East B.
But it's still B none the less.

Andy try looking for all the 1's roots on the frets indicated, with your tuner on as a reference.

And then find the chord degress they have marked. Use your tuner to let you know what you are finding and hearing.

This should go a LONG way to understanding this oh so important thread.
And for me from several of the participants points of reference.

Guys this is a masters class here and it is possible to get it in a synopsis form. I believe.

This might allow the less advanced minds to get more out of it faster...
just a thought. Keep it up.

Professer Bickerson and his friend Professor Disputeur discuse the meaning of life in the C6th dimension!

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 25 May 2003 at 02:57 AM.]

Posted: **25 May 2003 2:43 am**

Jesse,

Regarding your:

a working guitar player would never play D dorian when the rest of the band is playing C ionian.

You're gonna have to explain that one for my benefit. Unless I am misunderstanding you; My thinking, teaching and modal methodology is in direct conflict with that statement; Which don't make YOUR very knowledgeable way nor my way of looking at it wrong; just different approaches in the zillions of different concepts, terminologies, acquired "rules" and their exceptions, etc.

Seems allot easier to me ... mentally and by experience ... and more accurate ... to Play "VI"Aeolean or "V"Mixolydian around a "I"Maj6 Ionian armature than having to compute that upper end of "I"Major6 Ionian ... expecially if adding harmonies. And actually, if I use my cowboy / country licks in "V"Mixolydian (where I have allot more licks to work around than for Aolean in the same box), my ears will drive the hick stuff in that box congruent to correct line and harmony intervals for a IMaj6 theme ...and sound allot more trick than it really is by simply subbing a mode / box.

I REALLY would be most interested in hearing how you might approach working 9th tones in a Maj9 tonic composition if not by using the ease of Dorian structure over Ionian ... especially on spanish geetar.

Sure, Maj9 is pretty eerie (but a pretty cool platform too); So what about your approach to working around 3rd tones in Ionian (especially poly-tonal to 3). Sure seems to me that building / working off of Phyrigian 1 is much easier than working off of Ionian 3.

What am I missing? Heck if I can get mentally cornfused for 3 days with Rick's simple mode frets chart, I can get confused by a bowling ball!

So many approaches and concepts ...and so little time!

ALOHA,
DT~[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 30 May 2003 at 01:45 AM.]

Posted: **25 May 2003 3:04 am**

<pre>
MODE BOXES AND BRACKETS, FOR STRING INSTRUMENTS;
Some charts and mechanics involved.
--------------------------------------------------------
</pre>
I am thoroughly enjoying these latest discussions on fretboard mechanics and math. It allows me to learn from others, forces me to recap old dusty concepts, and always learn something new. THANKS A MIL Guys.

Digestive debate among folks that know a subject rather well truely does afford an excellent forum for all with any level of subject knowledge.

But as it looks like the discussion might be wrapping up, allow me to post these things I've been working on all day long. I think graphic display might help. Seems fitting to have some charts and mechanics:

I have made a Spanish Guitar Ionian chart that might help us visualize and refer to in our discussions, along with my Steel modes / substitution chart and Spanish Guitar CHORD modes / substitution chart and Spanish Guitar SCALES mode substitution chart.

I also see an additional avenue of fretted string instrument mechanics we have not touched upon that has all to do with the notes shifting on opposite ends of adjoining mode boxes. That can help meld our several perspectives of Steel and Spanish Geetar boxes and their whys, into one.

AGAIN, For the purpose of comparing Spanish Guitar with Steel guitar modal boxes, ... WE MUST predicate any comparison between Steel and Spanish Guitar on the understanding that a spanish guitar's example fingering MUST remain the same through the boxes, for comparison with a Steels tuning that remains the same as the bar is moved up and down the neck. Otherwise we will be trying to compare the genetic similarities between apples and oranges.

On the new chart, you will notice that there is a different box FOR EACH different spanish fingering of THE SAME SCALE (and thus for each triad therein), just like there is a different same-mode box for every Steel TUNING. BUT;

We can still make some comparisons that will show us the mechanics of notes on fretted strings that make the boxes overlap and share intervals on those overlapping frets ... and what is happening to the shift on the non-shared frets:

You will notice that the spanish Guitar's different fingering boxes for the same mode / scale ALSO OVERLAP FOR THE SAME REASON THAT DIFFERENT MODES DO ON STEEL; Which is a matter of fretted string instrument mechanics, and not from modal mechanics (that I can see). For notes to go upscale on a fretted string instrument with more than one string, they either do so by going up the same string or shifting over to the next higher pitched string. The only differences between Steel and Spanish Guitar in the mechanics of the string shift is the voicings that are being shifted one string over by the new frets added in the new box and the old frets being dropped from the old box.

(sidenote):
(SOMEBODY simply figured out that the 6th note put into the triad in a 6th tuning on Steel, created the simplest math to pull all the notes into a full-scale 2-fret box that had the interval math to morph into all the church modes as it is moved up and down scale. And I am guessing it was likely Jerry Byrd and Chet Atkins working together since their close association in the early '50's and their musical approach and evolution seems congruent in time. That is also about the same time that Miles Davis started drumming on modal simplicity as opposed to Be-Bop mode abstract. Maybe someone here can provide us some more info on the origination of the 6th tuning.)

On Spanish Guitar the boxes are wider only because the intervals between strings in standard tuning are wider than on Steel.

On Steel AND on Spanish Guitar, the notes that are changed from box to box always occur on the unshared fret(s) of the neighbor box, on the opposite end from the common fret(s) between neighbor boxes, ...because the unshared fret is where the notes are being shifted to the next adjoining strings. That is a matter of fretted string instrument mechanics, not of mode math. Those mechanics just happen to meld up with the designed-in notes features of the 6th tuning that falls upon the strings and frets. HOWEVER;

On spanish Guitar, the boxes overlap for different finger positions for the same mode because each adjoining finger position is simply removing two frets from one end of the box and replacing 2 frets on the other end of the box to get the same intervals as they occur in the next finger position box's unshared frets shifted 1 string over. Again, to raise notes you either have to go up the string or shift to the next higher fret!

Now, as Rick and I have proposed: If you move any ONE spanish scale/chord finger pattern ... or any Steel bar position ... up or down the fretboard to make the mode therein change, then the scale/chord structure represented by either the fingered or steel-barred box, will go downscale to match the mode steps as they move upscale; WHETHER IT BE STEEL OR SPANISH GUITAR.

It is axiom: To change the mental identification of a given note grouping's mode to another mode, the original grouping has to move intact in the OPPOSITE direction up/down scale from the direction along the mode step sequence that root will become in the new change; Regardless of what instrument it is; ....well, almost all instruments anyway; I'd hate to have to chart out a Theramin!

Huh?

ALOHA,
DT~
[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 25 May 2003 at 04:36 AM.]

Posted: **25 May 2003 3:58 am**

Rick,

How are you getting the fonts to go bold at selected places?

THANKS,
DT~

Posted: **25 May 2003 4:00 am**

Well Andy; NOW you know; He IS a madman!

DT~

Posted: **25 May 2003 7:12 am**

I'm gonna push the slider toward genius, Denny.

Posted: **25 May 2003 7:18 am**

Like I said way back .. I'm so un-talented musically ... I had to do all this stuff on paper just to hang out and play 12 bar blues with some buddies back in the 80's ...

Kinda sad actually

As far as fonts stuff...

Start your word/line with [ ] ... with

B.... bold
i.... italics
tab.. making everything small/ evenly spaced

Then end the word/lines with [/ ] followed by the same letter/word (b,i,tab).

Check out the "UBB Code is On" feature in the reply box for posting pictures and other cool stuff ..

And those smiles are fun too ...

Posted: **25 May 2003 9:18 am**

Rick, you rock! Always have, always will.

GB

Posted: **25 May 2003 10:21 am**

Denny, where and how is the Maj9 being used in a progression? If your thinking that playing D dorian over C maj9 chord works because the 9 is a D note, math wise it works, but practical wise it doesn't (if your playing a modern ii-V-1 that is) but by itself it works. First off, your better off playing the mode that spells the basic chord your playing over, because the 1st, 3rd, 5th and 7th scale degree of that mode spells the chord, you are automatically outlining the harmony without having to think about it to much. D minor pentatonic which is close to D dorian played over C major7 sounds off on guitar (in a ii-V-I) this is what you and Rick are not considering and this is a big one*

"How in a progression is a chord being used and how does the scale you are using lay on the neck of the guitar for bending the strings"?

Guitar players bend the strings up in pitch and the scales you are playing has to facilitate this. Math wise you guys are right, but in the real world of bending and sliding into and out of chord/scale tones on a guitar and playing 3rds and 6th intervals etc you guys are making that almost impossible sometimes. The guitar has evolved with choice ways of looking at and using it's chord/scales, that make all this much easier to do than what you guys are asking a player to memorize, just to know where they are math wise.

*If your gonna compare a guitar with a steel, then use the perspectives/scale positions etc. that you would use as a working guitarist, so you don't get overwhelmed with allot of perspectives that don't have anything to do with the way one plays the instrument. Rick doesn't play guitar so he isn't gonna know this, but you and I should know this...

*The following approaches are used in classic Jazz theory over a major 9th chord:

*Over a major 9 chord you can play a min7 arpeggio based off the 3rd of your major chord, this outlines the 3, 5, 7 and 9 of the major chord. Play a major triad up a 5th, this outlines the 5, 7, 9 of your major chord. Frank Gambale who taught at the "Guitar Institute of Tech." doesn't like playing a minor pent up a whole step from a Major7 chord? He plays fusion mostly.

1. Play the Major scale with the same root.
2. Play Lydian with the same root so you don't have to worry about the 4th like you do in the purely major scale.
3. Play the Maj pentatonic/blues scale, same root as your major scale. Also play connected inversions of this Maj pent up and down the neck of your instrument.
4. Play the minor pentatonic/blues scale based on the 3rd, 6th and 7th note of your major scale. This gives you maj9, maj6 and maj7(#11) sounds.
5. Play major triads based of the 1st and 5th of your major scale.
6. Play a Major7 or 9th arpeggio
7. Play a min7 arpeggio built off the 3rd of your major scale. Sounds very good, your outlining the 5, 7, 9, and 11th of the major scale. *Don't hang on the 4/11 note cause it messes with the Major third and can make the chord sound suspended.
8. Play Major intervals of a 3, 4, 5, 6 based off your major scale.
9. If your using Lydian so you don't have to trip over the 4th, cause it's now sharped, all diatonic arps based off of your lydian mode sound good. Min7 [up] a 3rd, Maj7 arp[up] a 5th, min7 arp [down] 1/2 step sound good.
10. Major triads [up]5th, [up]whole step
11. Just play the major 9th arp and the major scale or major blues scale if you want to sound hick.
12. Play a min7 arp down a min3rd from the root of the major7/9 chord creats a Major 6 sound.
13. Maj pent on the root, 2nd (hope this interval makes you happy!)4th, and 5th of your major chord.
14. Minor pent on the 3rd and 7th of your major chord.
15. ionian
16. Lydian
17. 6th mode of Harmonic minor
18. Lydian sounds = 3rd mode of Harmonic minor, 6th mode of Harmonic minor, minor pent on the 7th of your major chord.
19. bebop major scale 1-2-3-4-5-#5-6-7-8 and is used over any major type chord. The scale usually moves in basic eight note patterns and usually decends. In pure form the scale invariably starts on a down beat. In pure form the scale starts on a chord tone. For the purposes of the use of this scale the chord tones are 1, 3, 5, and 6 (not 7).

*In the end, I think allot of the new non pedal steel players are going to be older guitar players who are picking up a new instrument and any comparisons should reflect how they already look at the guitar from being in playing situations. I don't use many of these approaches when playing country, they are mostly cool jazz things, that also work over blues here and there in a progression, if not over done. There are alot of approaches for different types of chords and different types of progressions which are beyond the scope of what we are talking about, but just from the many ways you can approach a major chord should give you an idea of how deep it can get. It depends what kind of music you are playing. Country, blues and gospel are pretty basic with their approaches and wouldn't sound right if you got too far out there.

*Denny your #1 modal navigation chart is very useable and as good as it gets, but the other charts are sometimes confusing and don't click in very easy, and this is coming from a guy who understands Ricks charts!
[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 26 May 2003 at 03:36 PM.][This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 28 May 2003 at 09:26 AM.]

Posted: **25 May 2003 12:00 pm**

but a working guitar player would never play D dorian when the rest of the band is playing C ionian.

They are the same thing, different emphasis. If I'm repeating what has already be said, I didn't read all of the thread.

Posted: **25 May 2003 12:19 pm**

Chad, please read the thread first. Math wise it works (by itself or in cool jazz) but on guitar it outlines a min7 chord and doesn't bend the strings right if used in a ii-V-I. Play a minor pentatonic up a whole step from a Major 9 chord used in a ii-V-I and listen? Dorian and minor pentatonic are almost the same scale and are interchangeable. Playing dorian up a whole step from your Major chord is one of the least favored approaches (ii-V-I) used by famous Jazz players around the world. The math is right but that's about it musically and that will always have the final word on it, as demonstrated by famous players around the world who have spoke about this approach. I guess it depends on what the chord is doing in a progression.

*To just play a major7/9 chord by itself and dorian up a whole step against it does sound o.k. and gives you a cool jazz sound and also the upper 1st extension box used for a tonic blues. I was thinking more in terms of the modern way of playing a ii-V-I. I concede it sounds o.k. by itself and I gotta be more careful how I think someone is seeing something.

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 25 May 2003 at 03:37 PM.]

Posted: **25 May 2003 12:39 pm**

Hi guys as usual you're rolling along!

I did a similar treatment as Denny did for 6 string for a 10 string PSG w/ D on top. But not with his level of analysis.
Just the framework not the house yet.

I also did it for P5, P6, P7, P8 boowah
and 2 levers A4 to Bb and C's 3+7 to C#.
Each has it's own analysis problems.
Haven't gotten to combined pedals/ levers yet.

I have it on a web page..
I am sure the chords spelled out are not right, and also there are all sorts of other chords not even mentioned.
But it shows what's happening. And is subject to updates of course.
I have been applying this discusion to the middle strings of the PSG, but it is a bigger problem extrapolating for this.

I also made a few additions if there were large note groupings and flatting something seemed logical. All nicely color coded.

If I posted this as the same kind of thread in Pedal Steel, it might have some legs like this thread sure has. And it has some interesting problems not covered specifically here.
But is deserving of the same intensity.

This is the non pedal version,
http://home.fr.inter.net/animatic/C6x10_no_pedals.jpg

and also the whole page with pedal variations.
. http://home.fr.inter.net/animatic/c6_tuning_psg_10_strings.htm

I think this is germain to the whole discusion, because I am looking at each element s a tuning based off C6, even if it can change back to C6.

Are the modality doctors in the house?[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 25 May 2003 at 01:51 PM.]

Posted: **25 May 2003 12:45 pm**

I dub this THREADZILLA.

Posted: **25 May 2003 12:52 pm**

And to think Santo & Johnny did it all on an
A6th Tuning and a minimum of chords.

Less is More.

or was it E6th?

[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 25 May 2003 at 01:54 PM.]

Posted: **25 May 2003 12:52 pm**

Or the Beantown brainstorm

> Jody LOL

They did good back when.
But who knows what we'all can do now!
To be able to seemlessly move across the neck in a here-to-for unknown (to us) pattern
will have definite benifits.

I just jammed blues with a friend this afternoon for 2 hours on the Bud, both necks.

And then pulled out the C6/A7 Supro...
and guess what. It suddenly had 20 more licks I never knew it had.
Just good ideas popping out all over.
And I directly attribute that to this thread.

Merci Dr's Bickerson, Disputicus Rex and Happy Hamburger.
For all this great work.
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 25 May 2003 at 02:14 PM.]

Posted: **25 May 2003 2:21 pm**

Man, this has been a very taxing thread. Rick and I have edited our previous posts more times than I can count. I have gone over mine and changed the wording here and there to hopefully clarify my points for the archives.

I think I've figured out why I was confusing Rick and Denny as to what I meant, I mistakenly used the word "pitch" to discribe the direction of the "order of the name of modes" on the guitar neck and steel neck, nut to bridge for both instruments. This direction issue was simple and did not use pitch. I apparently messed up doing this and was unable to explain this to Rick or Denny properly. Sorry Guys...

One thing I have learned by all this review and attempts at communicating, is it's hard to talk about deep theory if you and the other guys aren't all coming from the same place as far as what chord is used over what progression for what type of music using what kind of approach etc. There are just too many factors to consider, not to mention the meaning of words, that if not done, throws assumptions everywhere and confuses the whole conversation. [This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 25 May 2003 at 11:29 PM.]

Posted: **25 May 2003 2:30 pm**

Jesse I think that actually is one of the main reasons this hasn't succesfully gone this far before.
The same page to be on, hasn't been created.

You guys have come MUCH closer than I would have imagined in the begining. It seems to be tying several aproaches into a more coherent whole. And THAT is nothing to take lightly.

I am not sure but isn't this getting into record length territory for a thread too?[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 25 May 2003 at 03:32 PM.]

Posted: **25 May 2003 11:30 pm**

*It has occurred to me that what works great on guitar, bass, piano, horns, etc. might become a different animal on steel because of the nature of denny's boxes and the inverted nature of how the notes lay on the neck? If you already feel this is true, by all means point this out please. Rick Aiellos' boxes (the ones he created up above to demonstrate pitch movement) do not have this problem because the roots are on the low 6th string. I haven't decided if the steel (Denny's boxes) have any true resrictions on how classic theory holds up on it yet because of it's layout of notes?

The following reasons are based on classic theory approaches:

Main reasons to use the same root mode/chord/scale that spells the chord of the moment:

1. The 1st, 3rd, 5th and 7th note of the right mode/chord/scale spells the chord and outlines the harmony without giving it much thought.
2. The Arpeggio of the chord lays right over the 1st, 3rd, 5th and 7th notes of the mode without giving it much thought.
3. Using complex polytonal substitutions based off the chordal tones are super easy to find and use.
4. At least on guitar the bends work better.
5. Playing the right chord/scale makes it easier to play chordal tones on the 1 and the 3 beat.

Using sub modes from the same parent scale are cool now and then for the odd note choices that pop up.

Denny, I am not able to answer your question about "3 tones in Ionian (especially polytonal to 3) Working Phyrgian 1 is easier than working off Ionian 3". You need to give more info on what your asking. I don't want to guess and not know if this is what your talking about? I would like to answer your question and also understand what you mean by "seems easier and more accurate to play I Aeolean or bVII Mixolydian around Imag6 Ionian"? Maybe you could give these chords root names that relate to each other. I would like to know what you thought of my list of approaches for the Major 9th chord? Thanks...[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 26 May 2003 at 05:09 AM.]

Posted: **26 May 2003 1:42 am**

It occurs to me if you guys put up some example chord patterns for putting in BiaB,
and some mode patterns to try over them.
This would go a long way for the ear players here.

Theory often comes home when it is applied practically.
Gee isn't that why there are actually people with students in little cubicals and broom closets in the backs of music stores around the world.

Simple and concise examples :
Play this box over this chord pattern, then move your box from here to here.
Now try this one and compare.
A distillation of all your grouped arguments.

Denny when do we get to hear you play something?

Do you have a tune called "Redeye to Honalulu"?[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 26 May 2003 at 04:21 AM.]

Posted: **26 May 2003 4:28 am**

I think a Western Swing song would be a great song to start with. We could go from basic hick playing, to injecting jazz approaches just like Joaquin Murphy did. But what famous song would be best for this?

Posted: **26 May 2003 5:25 am**

A week of two ago I didn't know what a mode was and now I am an expert at modes.
Only I don't know what to do with them.
I only use 3 chords C, F, and G7th playing
Amazing Grace so how do I work in the modes to that?

The Steel Guitar Forum

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