The Steel Guitar Forum

Ah, I don't have to worry about those silly strings that mess things up by falling in between others. My first string is a D# and they all go DOWN in pitch from there. Makes it a lot easier, and I never quite got the idea behind the chromatics except as a gimmick for playing fast - which I don't care about. That's why the B6 I use is so nice - no chromatics, pretty logical, and really a Universal (in reverse, sort of) packed into 8 strings. Played a 5 hour jam with a full band today and never once thought "man, I wish I had some way to play faster"....

Ben: technically, I suppose it's a minor scale. But most blues is in major keys. Early in this topic, I mentioned that all of the notes (and some in-betweeners) can be used at one place or another in blues.

Yeah - I don't think most real blues third note choices are either major or minor third exactly. A lot of times, it's consistently in between, sometimes it bends from something close to a Western minor to something close to a Western major, or vice versa. On a lot of stuff, the third is implied, not played.

The Indians are crystal-clear about it - the microtones you choose vary according to who your teacher was, where you were born, the time of the day, the mood of the raga, the planting season, the crickets chirping in the background. This is so patently offensive and/or incomprehensible to a scholar raised on Bach (beer-chugging, improvising, happy ol' Bach) that it zips right by them - I think the same can be said of "da blooze" & their microtones?

Yes - I really and truly find it hard to force Western music constructs on the blues - they fit to a certain extent, but then deliberately break the rules because something else expresses the emotion better. To me, that is a big part of what is liberating about the music, and carries over to my playing in a lot of other styles too. I agree with b0b's fractal description a few posts back. With a master player - it's easy to think you understand it until you listen more closely - and then realize there was more there than meets the ear. That's true with other styles, of course - but with blues, it often seems simple, but it isn't. I look at it as a type of musical Haiku.

I also agree with David M. on the near-taboo on playing up and down a string. When I started playing guitar, I ran melodies up and down a single string a lot. People kept on telling me it was wrong, and that the mechanical efficiency of working across strings was "correct". But moving up and down the string has a very different and beautiful sound in many contexts, to my tastes. I think of Middle Eastern and Indian music in particular. Many blues players also use this effectively. The beauty of slide guitar, to me, is that zing one gets from continuously moving tones up and down one or more strings.

There are a few ways to look at it, of course. When the "blues thirds" were mapped onto a rigid, Western music piano keyboard, they came out as both the minor and major thirds. When you combine that with the flat fifth/perfect fifth, major sixth/flat seventh and the root, you've got seven of the eight notes of the symmetric scale, AKA the "half-step/whole-step" or diminished scale. From there it's a logical step to tritone substitutions and chords ascending by minor thirds - Voila! The invention of modern jazz.* Duke Ellington, Benny Goodman, all those 30's guys were mixed up in it. So, you could say that attempting to force the warbly blues notes onto a piano and a written-music page "invented" jazz* - not entirely a bad thing. Plus, you can still tune your guitar to open E, cram a slide on your finger, chug some bathtub gin and howl about your baby - nothing has really even been lost....


*(With a minor historical shortcut for the sake of brevity, of course)

I also agree with David M. on the near-taboo on playing up and down a string. When I started playing guitar, I ran melodies up and down a single string a lot. People kept on telling me it was wrong, and that the mechanical efficiency of working across strings was "correct". But moving up and down the string has a very different and beautiful sound in many contexts, to my tastes.

I'm surprised to hear that. single string runs are big part of metal solo-ing. we like to circle pick a scale up a single string, or hammer on and off a scale all the way down a single string. These runs do tend to have an "eastern" sound to them. When I watch videos of pro psg players, I see ALOT of going straight up the neck on a couple strings. Makes sense because of the shallow string intervals on psg.

One major difference between guitarists and psg players is this:
As guitarists we are used to making the bends that give our lines expressiveness, with our left hand. PSG players get these bends with their left hand but also with their feet and knees. So perhaps that explains our partial adversion to the pedal positions..when our left hand isnt moving much we dont feel like we are expressing in a way we are used to. Hence our desire for a no pedals box at first..we go with what we know. Some real ripping licks in those pedal boxes tho so here i come....

Thanks everyone for a truly enlightening discussion.

Another difference is guitar players are also used to letting things ring - playing one of the "box" patterns often includes holding the bottom part on a few strings and hybrid picking (flatpick and fingers) therough it, letting the lower strings keep ringing. Bent notes are also usually more legato, with things held and vibrato applied. I hear things like that more on lap steel than on pedal steel, where precise blocking techniques are the polar opposite of that style of playing. I was told yesterday at a jam that my steel playing sounded a lot like my guitar playing and didn't have the "choppy" sound of most steel...it was meant as a compliment. It was the same whether I played one of my Fenders or my GFI Ultra - the "feel" of the playing was the same.

Other guitarists-turned-steelers I know often play somewhat the same way - a more flowing, fluid style of picking with less blocking. It also means a LOT less reverb than many players use - reverb just washes out and muddies up that kind of playing (and this is where delay can often be used as a substitue for any reverb at all - short delays with a quick repeat decay sounds full and rich; reverb sounds indistinct and chaotic).

Also, fooling around with my copedent (if you're interested, look at the Sneaky Pete version on the copedent listing page - that's what I use with an interesting 3+4 w/splits variation on my GFI that's floating around the board in a threadf somewhere)) I've found parts of the "blues box" 3 frets up from an open major chord (in my case the root is on the 2nd and 6th strings) with the 1st pedal engaged (I don't call it the "A" pedal since it's not exactly the same as the E9 "A" pedal); also "2 down" with the 1,2 and 7 pedals kicked in.

Now I just need to draw them on a fretboard overlay, and I'll have "home plate" for both country-ish (major) pentatonics and blues riffs - essentially the "boxes" we've described. I literally get 1-2 emails a week from guys who have bought or are buying Fenders and want to know what copedent to use and how to find the basic country and rock licks like on guitar. Now I'll have something more concrete to give them - a good excuse to finally get my webpage up and running as well.

I've found parts of the "blues box" 3 frets up from an open major chord (in my case the root is on the 2nd and 6th strings) with the 1st pedal engaged (I don't call it the "A" pedal since it's not exactly the same as the E9 "A" pedal); also "2 down" with the 1,2 and 7 pedals kicked in.

-you got it, three up and two down, those are some of the pockets in E9th as well i think. the one two frets back has alot of stuff guitarists will recognize. I think you can also think of em as both being "three up"...since two back is the same as three up from pedals down....but for me its still easier to think of it as "two back". It will all still always be patterns to me tho...Im tryin to get the theory behind it all, buts its gonna be a long haul on that stuff. Cheers.

Ben Jones wrote: -you got it, three up and two down, those are some of the pockets in E9th as well i think... I think you can also think of em as both being "three up"...since two back is the same as three up from pedals down....but for me its still easier to think of it as "two back".

Sounds like you guys are onto it!

I just want to add that thinking of all these positions as "three frets up" is a great way to visualize it because it is universal in the music world:

* It works on any stringed instrument.

* It works with any copendent.

* Most importantly for our purposes, you can use it to find multiple minor positions on the neck. One simple rule fits all situations.

I use "three up" to find 3 different positions on the neck for playing minor runs and chords, and I only have to remember that one "rule" to get there.

Meanwhile, thinking about one of the positions as "two back" only works for one place on the neck: two back from open position. The "two back" rule doesn't work for the other possible positions. You have to remember "three up" for those. Confusing.

But yes, "two back" IS a very easy, convenient memory trick. I used to think "two back" too... until discovering the larger, more universal rule. Now, I'm in the process of retraining myself. But ultimately, you have to use whatever works for you. Everybody's brain is wired a little differently.... Vive la difference!

The 'boxes' are really useful.....

But I went through personal revelation when I started going 'out of the box' and using *much* more 'lateral movement' (going up and down the neck) rather than playing in a narrow position and using pedals. I got this from the Sacred Steel players, and this approach was certainly validated by playing with Derek Trucks and checking out his technique. Derek is the master of this. Check out this video: Derek blowing away Clapton live with a tenth of the notes.

An example of this in my own playing is this solo from my Unsanctified Gospel Revival record. I think this solo was all done on a single string (no pedals): I Shall Be Released

single string runs make a whole lotta sense for any instrument played with a bar or slide, perhaps because the bar is always in contact with the string so you can let the notes ring if you ddesire instead of blocking. this yeilds a more vocal or singing quality to the tone which is very appropriate for blues and sacred steel playing.

One thing Ive noticed however is that many players tend to slide up only when doing single string stuff, never or rarely do they slide down...Ive noticed that really great players will add lots of downward movement as well as the upward stuff to their single string runs. Derek had a few in that video....

Dan, you are a badass.

Yes, single string all over the neck is a powerful part of slide blues style on guitar or steel. All the old Delta and Chicago slide players, and the Sacred Steelers, use(d) lots of single string stuff. That is the most "vocal" or "singing" sounding slide technique.

We just got off on this thing about boxes, pockets and positions because Jim S. was complaining about not having examples on steel.

I already knew the single string style from years of playing slide guitar. So since moving to blues pedal steel, I have been concentrating on learning blues licks across the strings at the various pedal steel chord positions. The value of playing across the strings at chord postions is that you can speed pick across the strings faster than you can move the bar up and down the neck. But speed picking across the strings comes out more with a jazz sound - you loose that soulful singing sound of blues slide guitar. Also, playing two or three strings at chord positions, you can add harmony. Ultimately, you should be able to use the pedals and levers to move the harmony up and down the neck. That would give a unique pedal steel blues sound. Is the world ready for it?

This raises an interesting question. Mostly we are talking about copying guitar and slide guitar blues licks on pedal steel. The Sacred Steel blues-gospel licks can also be used. But we seem to be all carefully avoiding mixing country pedal-mashing licks with the blues licks we copy from guitar and slide guitar. One of the big criticisms of Robert Randolph here on the Forum is that he just sounds like someone playing guitar rock-blues licks on pedal steel - there is very little uniquely pedal steel sound in his style. The implication is - what's the point? Why not just play rock-blues guitar like everyone else out there playing rock-blues? So we are caught in a damned-if-we-do-and-damned-if-we-don't conundrum. If we pedal mash, it sounds like country, not blues. And if we don't pedal-mash, it just sounds like regular rock-blues guitar. Somewhere in between is a revolutionary, uniquely pedal steel style of blues and rock waiting to be born. We have to find and showcase the licks that can't be done on regular guitar or slide guitar. Something like Delbert McClinton's music is a good place to start. When I'm listening to his stuff, I frequently find myself asking - wait, is he playing a country song, a country-rock song, a rock/country song, or a blues song? And the answer is, none of the above. He is playing his own unique style of country/southernrock/blues. Is the world ready for a pedal steel version of that?

David that is exactly what i was talking about earlier, sorry to quote myself....

what I'd really like to hear is the bar movement blues stuff mixed with the beautiful pedal movements more associated with country psg. Robert Randolph-esque but with lotsa pedal movement? That would be sick. I'm still fairly ignorant of the instrument and the players tho so maybe someone has or is hoeing that row?

this is what I am interested in exploring, tho I am far from having the skill to do so just yet.

Ben, I'm working on that. But I'm still slowly getting the equipment and learning how to record myself digitally and post tracks on the internet. It'll be awhile yet. And...I'm nowhere near as good as Dan Tyack.

Thanks for the kind words, folks!

Here are some examples from fairly recent sessions where I could have easily used the lap steel, but chose to use the pedal steel (and really used the pedals):

This is a Jackson Brown-ish song from a singer named Garth Reeves. I actually did a whole version with lap, but we decided to do a take with pedal steel, which is what he used:

Appropriately titled: 'Out of Tune'.

Here's a rockabilly kind of thing with a kind of Keith Richards vibe from a singer named Michael O'Neil:

Austin

I've got to mention that my tone is painfully bright to my ears on these cuts, but that's what the customer wanted....

We just got off on this thing about boxes, pockets and positions because Jim S. was complaining about not having examples on steel.

Not "complaining"...and actually, Ben brought it up. I just happened to agree.

Jim Sliff wrote:I just happened to agree.

!

Dan, thanks for that link to Derek Trucks. I liked your comment about a tenth of the notes. I was watching a special on Delta Blues the other night and witnessed B.B. King blow away a young guitar slinger with one note. BB would hit that one unmistakeable soulful BB King note and just stare at the young man trying to trade licks with him. He did this several times wrenching more out of that one note than the young fellow could get out of his whole neck. The message was pretty clear to me and B.B. didn't have to say a word.

Re: speed, soul etc, I got sidetracked by the discussion underneath the Derek Trucks posting on YouTube. To spare you the pain, I will summarize:

Moron 1: "Steve Vai can blow Derek Trucks away."
Moron 2: "No, Derek Trucks can blow Steve Vai away."
Moron 1: "Prove it."
Moron 2: "Since a moron like me can (kind of) play a few Steve Vai licks, Derek Trucks obviously can play them all - he just doesn't choose to."
Interested observer: (?)

Left out of their analysis is the notion that you get better at whatever you practice (including, alas, being a moron ). If you practice b@njo rolls, it won't help you go up and down one string. If you practice going up and down a string, it won't help your b@njo rolls.

I am a relative beginner....could one of you experienced..pros.....please give a simple explanation to the "3 up.....2 back" rules that are mentioned earlier.....it would be a big help...
have some understanding as I have been playing reg 6 string for 40 yrs....not sure how it to apply this to steel....thanks, ch

Jim Sliff wrote: Quote:
I just happened to agree.

!

Hehe - Ok, Doug - so I agreed...clearly?

please give a simple explanation to the "3 up.....2 back" rules

Usually - in a generic sense - it means you play a certain way (the description of "3 up" or whatever usually includes what pedal(s) are to be engaged) 3 frets up from the root position, or where you would normally play the major chord.

An example (not being an E9 guy, I hope I'm at least close on this) would be playing major stuff based on a G chord at the third fret, then press the "A" pedal and go "3 up" (top the 6th fret) for minor or bluesy playing.

thanks.....that helps a lot...
guess as I get more playing time....a lot of these tricks will began to make more sense to me.....

Carroll (Bud), look at it this way. At the 5th fret with nothing engaged, your playing an A major position. If you drop back 2 frets and play the pentatonic scale using the A/B pedals at that position, you’re playing an Am pentatonic scale is what Tucker is saying. Yes, it is also a C major pentatonic scale and it works because theoretically the C major and Am pentatonic are the same expect for the root note. There is actually a theorectical realtionship between the two that I would be happy to talk to you about in private. Then, he is saying that if you slide up 3 frets, from the open A position at the 5th fret, and you land on the 8th fret, you’re again in a C major or Am position as they relate the pentatonic scale. What Tucker is doing is giving you a pretty handy way to remember the positions to play out of out without your having to learn the location of every root note. Since most players know the open and A/B positions, his approach gives you something familiar to help you find where you need to be to achieve the minor pentatonic scales…James

Tucker, James, David, and bOb (sorry if Ive left anyone out, this is a long thread) have laid it out for us. Thank you guys sincerely. Its interesting to note that each has done so in a somewhat different way, using different words and even different ways of conceptualizing the theory behind it. and guitarists will see it in yet another way. My current undertsanding is a combination of the pedal pockets they've illustrated, and the bar movement "blues boxes" Ive tried to illustrate.

Mr. Sission, I've been following this thred for some time, trying to make sense of all the posts as it applies to me. Each of us are different in approch, experiance on steel and music and in this area I am less then a beginner, I'll admit. But I must say that for me, your explanation of the scale relationship opened up the neck in a way I had not seen before. I've toyed with the 7th string raised and the B pedal engaged, pretty much at any fret but wasn't sure how it all tied together. Thank you, DS.