The Elements Of Tone!

Mike Shefrin · Post by **Mike Shefrin** » 20 Nov 2006 11:38 pm

What makes each of us unique in the sound we get, and why is it when we play someone else’s guitar it sounds different than when they play it?

Reese,
I usually play without picks, and that has alot to do with the sound I get. I can block much cleaner this way, and four note grips are a breeze compared to when I use picks. I can also play with picks, but choose not to since I like the technique that I've developed without picks. I have no problem playing fast without picks either, and I like the "tone " I get with my nails and fingertips. I do not advocate my method but simply say that this is what I have found works best for me.

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 21 Nov 2006 4:29 am

David D....Your personal appeal concerning remaining on topic is noted.....

Unfortunately, the common path of many threads is usually that of a rapid downward spiral which results in a lock down for reasons which are apparent and all too common....I personally consider that scenario to be very unfortunate and not in the best interest of the steel guitar community.

Leonard B....I'm anticipating your response to my question posed in one of my earlier posts.

Mike S....Playing without picks, although out of the ordinary, is what I believe to be a very viable approach.

I now have a student who is also a guitar player and he prefers to use a flat pick and his middle and ring finger. I certainly didn't discourage him, because it has never been my intention to stiffle natural tendencies.

If I have a student with a different approach, I suggest to them what I believe to be the odds for success, but always defer to their decision and natural tendencies.

Roual Ranes · Post by **Roual Ranes** » 21 Nov 2006 4:47 am

About six months ago, I played a gig with another steel player there. On the break, that steel picker sat down at my steel using my bar and my picks.......he had a great tone....when I went back it sounded just like me!!!!!

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 21 Nov 2006 4:56 am

Reece,
as we have seen this discusion veer off
far too often in the past into amps and instruments,
I felt it was time for a STRONG nudge back
to what I percieved as your original intention here.

Which sadly has so often been lost to
"semantic openings".

If some believe that tone is primarily
in the instrument and the amp/ settings,
then respectfully they should allow those with
another view on the generation of good tone,
to plumb their own path without being diverted to
anothers preferential view.

Be it 'most' or 'many',
that doesn't open the door for a change of topic
from technique to equipment choices IMHO.

Before you can bother with a great amp and steel,
you still have to pick,
and at a certain point true finese of
picking and barring, needs to be adressed.

If someone of Reece's calibre and accomplishment
wants to discuss technique directly,
I for one want to hear that,
and the comments of others
germain to this topic. Not tangents...

I have posed some thoughts,
and seen them swamped by instrument discussions.

I will note that the best comments here
in my opinion are from players I have seen live,
and find to be in the top echalon.
The topic changers, respectfully, are relative unkowns to me,
maybe fine players, maybe not.
I place myself am in the later catagory.

Which is why I WANT to hear from the guys
I have seen and been impressed by, on THIS very subject.

Leonard Bick · Post by **Leonard Bick** » 21 Nov 2006 5:17 am

Mr. Anderson,
What was the question? I apologize, evidently I missed it. I respect your opinion highly and I'm thankful you're allowing my input and opinion without bias.

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 21 Nov 2006 6:01 am

on topic

regarding picks:

John Hughey's picks extend pretty far out from the fingers, and he gets tone to die for. I tried it, and it didn't work for me- I prefer to have the picks wrap around the fingertip a bit, and also have them bent to a slight angle, so when I attack the string, the idea is that the pick is sliding through the string, coaxing the sound rather than slapping it. I use the same idea with a flatpick on guitar and mandolin, trying to "draw" the sound out. I feel the attack is "warmer" this way.

I am using .025 picks as I like the overall tone better- and I feel that I get the instrument to resonate more with a heavier pick. This leads me to think that the tone chain truly begins before the pickup-and I sometimes practice unplugged to try and get a good basic sound, and work on fundamentals.

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 21 November 2006 at 06:05 AM.]

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 21 Nov 2006 6:23 am

My take is tone is in the mind.
My first MSA, a Red Baron, made me cry, and not in a good way. It wasn't a sound I'd heard before.
Receiving my 3rd MSA, I played a few chords and EUREKA! My wife came in to say it really sounded like something.

Hearing an instrument much like many used in recordings in the 70's, it caused me to play things like I had heard. Not well, but the sound was there, and the sound is what causes me to play a certain way, be it pedal steel or keyboard (the difference in a big grand or a Rhodes).

Of course, one has to accept that body/mind is/are one, and thus the direct connection to the hands as an extension of mind.

After Eureka!, it was back to 'chop wood, carry water.'

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 21 Nov 2006 7:00 am

"Which sadly has so often been lost to
"semantic openings"."

No, actually some of are responding directly to a statement made in the opening post regarding what most players think is the primary source of tone. If you make that statement, comments/replies are on topic and part of the discussion, even if some folks don't want it to be.

And the tread hasn't been hijacked into an amp/guitar thread. It's primarily focused on what effect the hands have on sound. Yes, I didn't use the word "tone" in that last sentenc, and you can call it semantics if you wish - but telling people to stay off te thread because the definition of tone is not relevant is ludicrous.

All that aside, Reece makes excellent points regarding th hands' effect on the overall sound produced. Those factors, combined with the instrument's tone and the capabilities of the amplifier to accurately reproduce that tone produce the sounds you hear. Any one of the factors - use of hands, specific guitar, or amplifier - can change the sound. The basic tone is what it is based on the guitar, and you can either hear that or you can't. Or in the case of some, it's not an important factor. However, it's still the root of the overall sound.

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 21 Nov 2006 7:32 am

Leonard B....I invite you and everyone to feel comfortable in addressing me as simply "Reece" if you wish. I never was much on formalities.

The question I directed to you can be found on page 2, 2 post's up from the bottom. I appreciate your intentions of a response.

John Mc....Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

I place my picks tightly on the end of my fingers. This provides me the same perception as when fishing with a flexible fishing rod, in that I believe I can better "feel" the string response.

If I wear my picks deep, it's like fishing with a stiff pole and not being able to feel the "subtleties of the "bite" because the response is too stiff. (I have the same mindset for my thumb pick as well)

Secondly, I believe the angle of the picks as they enter the strings works best for me when they are going straight down into the strings. This can be examined by looking at the right hand while in the playing position and configuration.

Again, my perception is, I'm initiating the maximum response from the string, and, it's also easier for me to feel consistent pulling pressures.

Charlie Mc....I'm in agreement with you in that the mind is in control and must initiate the commands. This is why the mind must be programmed first by logic and perception if one is to expect the body to carry out the command within the musical time frame allotted.

Leonard Bick · Post by **Leonard Bick** » 21 Nov 2006 7:52 am

Reece,
I addressed your question at the end of the second post on page 3.

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 21 Nov 2006 8:05 am

Jim S....In all due respect and sincerity, will you please suggest specifically that which you believe I must say that will clearify my opening statement to your satisfaction, thereby allowing the opportunity of this thread to move forward without continually looking backward.

I believed my original intentions were clear, but I'm certainly capable of making an error of judgement, and if you feel I have done so, then you have both my regret and my personal apology.

David Wright · Post by **David Wright** » 21 Nov 2006 8:22 am

80% tone .....in Hands!

20% tone.....guitar~amps
and you can take that to the bank...........

exampale.
I posted JD playing on you~Tube...some one wrote in the post
that Push~Pull tone of JD's....just can't miss it....well...he was playing a EMCI...all pull!

Think about it!!!!!!

Jim S..... the thread is now back on tone......

Great post Morse!!!!!!!!
....

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 21 Nov 2006 8:27 am

Leonard B....Thank you for calling it to my attention. I did not construe your response as an answer to my question.

My question was:"Concerning your recent observation, may I respectfully ask if in your opinion each guitar could have been played while your back was turned and you could have distinguished one from the other when different players were playing them"?

Your reponse was: "Yes I could definently tell the difference of the sounds of the different steels with my back turned".

You eluded earlier that only your uncle was strumming all the guitars.

Unless you implied something I'm missing,
(and I apologize if I did so) you have not responded to the point of my question.

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 21 Nov 2006 8:34 am

Reece thank you for you most educational topic. I have printed out your list and i will be putting it on my music room wall as a guide to achiving better hand and bar control and technique. How many of you have ever paid to take a steel guitar lesson, then sit there and argue with your instructor? Tommy White did not get to the stage of the opry every saturday night by playing a certain guitar, or amp or combination. As my good friend jack said, reece could play any guitar, with any bar or picks and get that great anderson sound. This "Free" lesson on bar and hand control is priceless to me, tommys' input, again priceless. Yes a good guitar and amp is very important, but most of us cannot even agree which is actually right for us. I don't feel every steel builder is trying to copy the tonal characteristics of a Emmons push/pull, at least i hope not. Just like gibson should not try to build every guitar to reproduce the sound of a 1953 fender telecaster. I marvel at how master players like reece and tommy and a few select others can "Adapt" to a lack of tone from a guitar or amp, close that gap as reece mentioned. If it were all in the guitar, that would not be possible. Reece is just as much at home playing a heavy jazz set, as a country set, why? The knowledge, and the HAND TECHNIQUE. I think we should all be taking mental notes here. Way yonder too much emphasis is put on brands, "sound like", "just like" i have this change here, that lever does this! Ever hear Jerry Byrd, herb remmington,reece, or tommy, bobby seymour or any of the older pros play a non pedal? you could sit under 14 strings, 10 floors, 10 knees steel guitar, tuned any way you like, in tune, just in tune, just out of tune, push pull, push push..what have you, and never be able to sound like this masters why? simple answer,go back again to reeces original post, the answer is right there. God Bless

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 21 Nov 2006 8:49 am

David Wright, my friend,

If 80% of tone is in the hands, we should be able to mike a steel guitar instead of using a pickup and get most of what we would normally hear. You and I both know that it don't work that way.

If 80% of tone is in the hands, why do you carry around two big Peavey amps and an effects rack instead of whatever's handy?

Most of my tone comes from the pickups, the tubes and the speakers I use. I'd say 80%. Maybe 20% comes from the hands. Yes, tone starts in the hands but, for an electric steel guitarist, the largest components of tone are the electronic instruments used.

That's my opinion.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
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Leonard Bick · Post by **Leonard Bick** » 21 Nov 2006 9:03 am

Reece,
Yes I could definitely tell the difference of the sounds of the different steels with my back turned, with different players playing them. I was just assuming you would understand. I didn't mean to leave out, with different players playing them. My bad.
Here's another scenario. There was another player there, who hasn't been playing as long as my uncle, played the Fessenden right after my uncle played it. He wasn't as smooth or accomplished but the tone did not change. I know I'm going against what everyone has believed over the years and knew it wasn't going to be popular, but it's my viewpoint.
I'm with you Bobby.... [This message was edited by Leonard Bick on 21 November 2006 at 09:06 AM.]

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 21 Nov 2006 9:06 am

"Concerning your recent observation, may I respectfully ask if in your opinion each guitar could have been played while your back was turned and you could have distinguished one from the other when different players were playing them"?

Excellent point Reece! When I bought my last guitar, I made my selection by listening to the same player, who played several different steels with all settings equal while my back was turned. In that example, I actually made my selection based on the "differences" that I heard.

Gene Jones www.genejones.com

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 21 Nov 2006 9:23 am

Reece said...any specific instrument has the distinct possibility of becoming unidentifiable relative to the inherent basic tone fundamentals/characteristics, which can be attributed only to the hands.

But Jim Sliff says...

...even a non-player can pick a note on a Push-Pull and it will have THAT guitar's tone.

As Reece has alluded, not always. At a show a few years ago, Curry Coster (a great local player) and I were listening to other steelers. One steeler was playing the exalted Emmons push/pull, and the tone (sound, timbre, whatever you choose to call it) was decidedly not what one would think of as a push/pull. The very next player on the show was playing a Mullen, an older one, and his tone was indeed very Emmons "push/pullish". I remarked to Curry (who plays and owns only push/pulls) that the Mullen actually sounded far more like a push/pull than the previous player's push/pull did...and he agreed!

I think that's good evidence that there's often (but not always) something else going on to create the sounds we hear. An Emmons push/pull doesn't always sound like an Emmons push/pull, nor does a Fender Tele always sound like a Fender Tele. There's often much more to the sound that you hear than just what particular brand or model guitar a player chooses to use.

And Jim, with all due respect, and whether or not you realize it, your "debating" Reece about steel guitar sound and tone has about as much validity as me debating Eric Clapton about straight guitar sound and tone.

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 21 November 2006 at 09:28 AM.]

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 21 Nov 2006 9:25 am

To me, all this raises another interesting question: as I noted in an earlier posting, and Reece has also echoed, over time, one adapts one's playing to get out of a guitar the sound that one is looking/listening for. For me that takes about a week or two of subtle, mostly subconscious, hand adjustments. Thus, would it be a mistake for me to buy a guitar based on how I like the sound the first time I play it? Well, maybe, if I'm already 'there' and don't feel that I will need any accomodation time to achieve my desired sound. But I have yet to meet such a guitar (for me).

Or... take brother Gene Jones's example, after listening to someone else play several guitars, who is sitting down to the them for the first time and has had no time at all to adapt to them. I'm not sure that, after the 'accomodation' period, the sound I would get out of the guitar would necessarily sound like what he got out of it on Day 1, without any accomodation time. Or, for that matter, even if we both had had the time to accomodate to it, I'm not sure we'd end up in the same place. In fact, I rather doubt it. How then to choose a guitar? Tis a puzzlement!

p.s. Disclaimer: for those who are only following this thread with one eye open, I am not the "Jim" being widely quoted and debated above.

[This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 21 November 2006 at 09:27 AM.]

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 21 Nov 2006 9:30 am

It seems to me that the issue of how the pickup magnets "see" the string should have a great bearing on what direction you try to make the strings vibrate in. To this end, I have just recently started wearing my picks bent somewhat further out from my fingertips rather than the close-in, "Jeff Newman"-style pick shaping. I am trying to get the strings to vibrate as horizontally as possible, with the goal of sending as much full-range signal to the pickup as possible.

I have only been experimenting with this for the last few months, and it may take a few years of experimentation and recording comparisons to get a solid answer. I don't mind doing something that seems harder initially, if I am to end up with better tone eventually. I do remember reading that blade magnets and pole-piece magnets "see" the strings in an exactly opposite manner, but I'm not a compulsive "pickup-switcher" by nature, so that's not critical to my comparitive process.

Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 21 Nov 2006 9:48 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Most of my tone comes from the pickups, the tubes and the speakers I use. I'd say 80%. Maybe 20% comes from the hands. Yes, tone starts in the hands but, for an electric steel guitarist, the largest components of tone are the electronic instruments used.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am with Bobby on this. The hands do indeed play a roll in the differing tones that can be produced by an electronically ampt steel guitar; however, the pickups, bridge, nut and tuner materials can give a steel guitar an entirely new voice.

Reece is also right in that the manner in which the strings are picked will give the strings a different vibration tempo. (with some steelers you can really hear the overly sharp snapping of the strings).

I think the bottom line however is that the steel guitar is an electronic sound produced instrument. Think of how many electrical occurrences the sound vibrations must pass through before it leaves the speakers. Every tiny vibration is enhanced, mushed out, bassed, trebled, reverbed and intensified as it passes through a myriad of electronic phases before it comes out of the speakers.

Try playing your steel guitar without any electronic sound reproduction equipment. Now start adding, one by one, all the electronic phases. The tone keeps changing as each phase is added.

The ideology of tone also bares the argument of what the listener equates as "good or great" tone. I love the very rich and mellow tones of a steel guitar and I tend to lay off the no man's land on the frets. To me, anything near or above the 15th fret is becoming piercing and I have a tough time keeping a mood in tact. When I hear a steel being played within the mid range notes and/or frets, I am enthralled by what I am hearing.

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(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)

[This message was edited by Les Anderson on 21 November 2006 at 09:51 AM.]

Rick Johnson · Post by **Rick Johnson** » 21 Nov 2006 9:50 am

I'm leaning toward the "hands" as
a huge contributing factor to my
personal sound. I've had my P/P
since 1985, my Session 500 since
1977, same goes for the volume
pedal, cords and picks and seat.
I listened to some old albums that I
recorded many years ago and I have to
say that my tone that I have now is
so much better than then. I attribute
that to maturing as a player and
watching so many great players in
action, being more aware of my vibrato
from my bar and the basic mechanics
of trying to play smoother and not so
harsh and choppy.
What I'm saying is, basicly
my equipment is nearly the same but
I sound much better now than then
and the difference is just me.

Rick
www.rickjohnsoncabs.com

Al Collinsworth · Post by **Al Collinsworth** » 21 Nov 2006 10:09 am

Deleted to free more space on the server.[This message was edited by Al Collinsworth on 25 November 2006 at 06:08 AM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 21 Nov 2006 10:09 am

Jim Cohen said...

Thus, would it be a mistake for me to buy a guitar based on how I like the sound the first time I play it?

Uhh, yes. (IMHO)

A guitar is just like a car. You may prefer this make or that make, and you may rationalize in your own mind that "this is the right one for me". In reality, though, any number of different ones would get you from point "A" to point "B". (That's about all cars are for.)

Guitars? Same thing. You may prefer this brand or that brand, and you may rationalize in your own mind that "this is the right one for me". In reality, though, any number of different ones would let you make good music. (Isn't that about all guitars are for?)

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 21 Nov 2006 10:13 am

Reece, could you please give us a little advice as to how to get the most out of your bar and hand tone list? just a little advice as to how to put your examples to work for us. i do realize not every method, will work for everyone the same. We can all use better hand technique. At least i can. It's kinda ironic, but my best friend is an accomplished violinist. She called me from work on her lunch hour, and i think she is still chuckling at some of these response's and how little value some of you put on hand technique to achive good tone. She "Claims" hand technique is the "Secret" to a violin masters tone....NOT necessarily the violin.

"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."

-- Douglas Noel Adams