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Topic: Age Discrimination |
Mark Treepaz
From:
Hamburg, New York USA
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Klaus Caprani
From:
Copenhagen, Denmark
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Posted 9 Oct 2006 6:17 am |
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Well. At least some folks say it straight as it is.
I was turned down after auditioning for a gig as bassplayer, with an upcoming band a couple of years ago. The reason apparantly being us being "different places in our lives and yada yada yada". They DID tell me though, that I was the most well prepared and well playing of anybody at that audition.
For some funny reason it feels so good to know, that they were hiring people for recording and touring back then. Now after a couple of changes of bandname they're STILL stuck in the rehearsal facility 
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Klaus Caprani
MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4
www.klauscaprani.com
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Steve Stallings
From:
Houston/Cypress, Texas
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Posted 9 Oct 2006 10:55 am
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That really sucks about Terry. I was a big Joe N fan... no more.
The band I work for:
Bass 26
Lead vocalist 29
Drummer 35
Keys 40
Lead guitar 53
And the geezer of the bunch... me! 55 this coming Sunday.
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Steve Stallings
The Songs
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 9 Oct 2006 11:22 am
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| Quote: |
| That is downright age discrimination! |
Yup, and IMO, done like that - it's downright illegal. I think that crosses the line - one day, at age 49.99 you're working the gig, everything's fine. Then the next day, at 50.00, you're "no longer qualified", with no other reasons specified. Done just like that, that is pure age discrimination, and pretty dumb. Hope there were some witnesses. 
Of course, it's not usually worth fighting this kind of thing - the legal system is largely broken anyway. Again, IMO. |
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Chris Schlotzhauer
From:
Colleyville, Tx. USA
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Posted 9 Oct 2006 6:53 pm
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That's too bad about Terry. That says alot about Joe Nichols. His act is not working so they'll shoot for the boy band angle. Probably replace him with a B3.
I'm 53. I'm the oldest in the Derailers. Everyone else ranges from 30 to 39. We are very concious of our looks and I'm sure if I had a white beard, gut hanging over my steel and an old man attitude, I might be on the bubble.
I try to dress sharp and/or cool. I can out-hump gear with any of 'em. Mainly, I get along with everyone. I'm dependable, learn my parts, put on a show at all times, sing well, play well and I can out-party any of them too. I give a band no reason to let me go. If they do, then it probably is age descrimination. And it does happen, such as in Terry's case, because he is a real pro in his prime. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 10 Oct 2006 3:45 am
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Ok I'm gonna say it..
And PLEEZE do not take it the wrong way..
and lets make it clear, I am not putting myself into an exempt catagory...
Many of us, me included , work in bands with much younger players. I personally had to change my entire style of playing the past year or so to be able to hang with these kids musically and meter wise.....but thats not what I'm talkin' about here...
ok, here it comes...
A bunch of us look like an overweight Willie Nelson..
In all fairness to the younger generation, they LOOK young and pretty much may not want a grumpy lookin' over 50, closer to 60 guy( or gal) sittin on the bandstand with them that they cannot relate to, wearing polyester pants and a Turtle neck...
Now Terry above does not fit into this catagory for sure..but let me ask..
What do you look like, how do you dress when you go out and gig ?
Are you 45 lookin 55(or more) , or 45 lookin 35 ?
Do we think and talk 30, or do we think and act 65 ?
someone had to ask....
I'm not saying this is the case in all scenario's, but it does apply....
As older players there are a few things that we may want to consider if an opportunity to play with the KIDS shows up...
think/act younger
play modern as well as old school..
don't tell the new band everything we know
don't blab opinions on day one
play the music they want to play
play well
look good
dress current but not like we are teenagers
act professional
sorry..
t
[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 10 October 2006 at 06:23 AM.] |
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Joe Miraglia
From:
Jamestown N.Y.
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Joe Goldmark
From:
San Francisco, CA 94131
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Posted 10 Oct 2006 1:44 pm
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Hey, 50 is the new 40!
But really, I see it going both ways. When I was a kid, I always thought how cool it was that Commander Cody had an "old guy" on steel (Bobby Black, who was probably mid-40's at the time!). They also thought it was super cool, of course it didn't hurt that he was one of the nicest and best players in the west. However, I also agree with Herb's post. If they're uncomfortable then you don't want to be there anyway. The last point I want to make is that as you get older, there's a lot more things that you probably won't like about playing in rock bands. Steelers are sitting ducks for loud lead guitarists, and volume in general. We're lower to the ground and we get blasted. Also, these bands force you to play louder than you'd like and you lose your tone. Although the material is often fun, gigging in these kinds of bands can be trying. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 10 Oct 2006 6:05 pm
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| Quote: |
| Players, especially younger ones, generally like to play with people from their own generation. Even though older players might be *better,* fit the style they attempt to play more authentically, whatever, younger guys like to be around guys that are not as old as their dads or grand-dads. |
As a practical matter, I agree that what Herb says is often true, and there have been times when I felt like that also. Still, I certainly wouldn't use this as an argument for blatant employment discrimination (nor do I claim that Herb argues that line either - again, I agree that it's often a truism). But to be frank, that is exactly the same type of reasoning that has always been used to defend all types of discrimination - racial, gender, you name it. The old saw goes "Hey, I don't mean any harm - I'm just more comfortable working with {insert your favorite group here} kind of people." I'm sorry, it just doesn't fly, and is plain wrong, from any angle you want to look at it from - ethically, legally, you name it. Of course, this is IMHO.
If someone made a reasonable merit argument like - "you know, so-and-so isn't able to keep up with us anymore, he's low-energy, just doesn't seem to have the same zip he used to have, his chops are down, this is a very competitive gig and we need somebody new, ...", well, that is one thing. But the scenario - as presented here, at least - sounds very different. We're talking about a fine player in his prime, with no other reasoning presented. {Of course, I realize I don't know the whole inside story here - I'm just going on the story presented here.}
I said in my first post that if this was just a bunch of people getting together to play for fun, it would be one thing. But any employer has ethical and legal bounds to their behavior. Think of the uproar - and rightly so - if someone was to fire an female or African-American employee with the defense "Hey, I'm more comfortable working with middle-aged white guys." But this scenario, as presented, is exactly equivalent. Again, IMHO.
In general, I don't think most people, in US culture at least, take age discrimination very seriously. I think at root is a fundamental lack of respect for age and the wisdom accumulated therein, and a total obsession with youth and "newness". IMO, this type of thing - fundamental disrespect for its accumulated wisdom - has historically been a strong indicator of a society's decline. Of course, and as always, IMHO. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 11 Oct 2006 5:34 am
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If you are auditioning with or playing a gig with a band that is too loud and causing the rest of your hair to fall out..and the guitar player is a bone head...
then it's not the gig for you.
that has nothing to do with age.
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Don Barnhardt
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 11 Oct 2006 6:18 pm
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| I have no problem with this. I'm no more interested in playing with kids than they are in having me. I jam a lot with them and have fun but the only group I play with is an afro-billy gospel group and our stage name is "Four Old Men". The youngest is 69. I'm also self employed and still work as the notion strikes me. |
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steve takacs
From:
beijing, china via pittsburgh (deceased)
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Posted 11 Oct 2006 6:29 pm
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| Too old to rock, hmmm, let's see. Do the word Rolling Stones ring a bell? steve t |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 11 Oct 2006 9:03 pm
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| Learn to play jazz. Lot's of older players in that genre. |
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Klaus Caprani
From:
Copenhagen, Denmark
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Posted 12 Oct 2006 4:59 am
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He he
quote:
Are you 45 lookin 55(or more) , or 45 lookin 35 ?
Do we think and talk 30, or do we think and act 65 ?
How 'bout 45 looking like 35, acting like 25 while feeling like 65?
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Klaus Caprani
MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4
www.klauscaprani.com
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Joe Miraglia
From:
Jamestown N.Y.
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Posted 12 Oct 2006 8:52 am
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| There is an old saying "You are who you associate with". I"m giving my AARP membership--anyone who calls me a senior citizen, those are fighting words. I don't shop on Tuesdays because I don't even want senior discount! Joe www.willowcreekband.com |
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Chris House
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Posted 12 Oct 2006 9:07 am
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| I always tell people it's not the years that count, it's the mileage under the hood. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 12 Oct 2006 10:10 am
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hey joe g.
i'm 58...60's gonna be the new 30! i think you're the first to mention my nightly dilemma...sitting lower near the guitarists speaker..no one realizes how loud things are really getting down at my level...and our keyboardist/singer michael jarrett, who has written songs for elvis and has scrapped with jerry lee lewis had cotton stuffed in his ears to avoid the rim shots last night...he's 68..
and bobby black is still the coolest guy with a young smile and attitude.... |
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Gene H. Brown
From:
Whitehorse, Yukon Territory, Canada
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Posted 12 Oct 2006 8:06 pm
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As far as I'm concerned, there are them's that are stars and them's that think they are stars. In my mind, about 95 % of all the "Stars", wouldn't be "Stars" if it were not for the "Great Musicians" that make the sound behind them, but they would never admit that to anyone, but as musicians, we all know, don't we fellows  I've worked with some top notch A$$&^%$s and I 've also wotked with some top notch people, just depends on the man you're working with.
Gene
Gene
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If You Keep Pickin That Thing, It'll Never Heal!
;)
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 12 Oct 2006 9:35 pm
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Either you think and act young
or you think and act middle aged or old.
IF you are young at heart, and they 'can you'
because you reach an arbitrary date,
50 years old say, then they are twits, no question.
If you are the old curmudgeon
and haven't moved with the times,
and they just can't relate to you no mo,
than that MIGHT be a valid reason to
change lobsters and keep dancing.
The management of bands is not usually done by
the nicest of people. The "Star" is often fed a lot of B.S.
to keep him in line.
Management is by people in search of profit,
riding the backs of those with talent.
(read Lefty Frizzel's bio)
Young pickers often work cheaper,
and have less "on the road" issues.
In the age of MTV and image consious music productions,
often the image has as much credence
for managements aims, as the music.
It's JUST product for them...
And you are just a tool to use,
as long as THEY see profit from it.
One dim bulb chick in the audience saying, gee that guy with the funny piano sure looks old,
is enough to make some managers
think the sky is falling.
Never mind the chick is ONLY listening to the words,
and has no clue if you play well or not.
You look like her dad, and that's not cool...
Yeah business as usual.
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 12 October 2006 at 10:38 PM.] |
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Ken Byng
From:
Southampton, England
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Posted 13 Oct 2006 4:12 am
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A perspective on age? Here is something I read today on age success.
At 4 - success is: Not needing diapers.
At 12 - success is: Having friends.
At 17 - success is: Having a driver's licence.
At 20 - success is: Having sex.
At 35 - success is: Having money.
At 50 - success is: Having money.
At 60 - success is: Having sex.
At 70 - success is: Having a driver's licence.
At 75 - success is: Having friends.
At 85 - success is: Not needing diapers.
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kbdrost
From:
Prospect Heights, IL
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Posted 14 Oct 2006 5:40 pm
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I'm the oldest guy in my band, which is otherwise a bunch of 20-30 year olds. http://www.truehistorians.com/ It takes at least 10 years to get any good at this instrument and 20-30 to be proficient. We've all heard bands with "young" steel guitarists and, by and large, they sound like s**t. Either that, or they need a whole lot of ProTools to sound good. Nobody gives me a hard time about my age. Nobody who cares about their sound will "discriminate," as long as you're hip enough to be flexible to their tastes.
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Ken Drost
steelcrazy after all these years
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