The Steel Guitar Forum

Jim, "What's in a name?" I see no point in anyone trying to talk anyone else into liking or disliking anything. I'm just curious, though: everyone has their own definitions of musical "categories", but I have to wonder, if you don't consider Buck to be "country", what DO you mean by the term "real country", as in the stuff you don't like? In my own terminology, I think of Buck as about as real country as it gets. But that's me.

Brint, that was really a reference to the actual thread. There were mentions of people only liking "REAL" as opposed to "real" country. Meaning, I suppose, that there's some hard-core, definitive line. I've seen references to it before. I think it runs north and south, somewhere just west of a part of Tennessee....so you might note the " " at the end of my post, because I think you might have missed the "wink"....I think you might have aso missed that I wasn't trying to talk anyone into listening to or liking anything. The reverse is not true, however. There's a contingent hell-bent on somehow coercing people who don't listen to country that they HAVE to....especially if a steel guitar is present.

I wouldn't force any music on anyone. Tastes are a personal choice. And if you "acquire" a taste for something and expand on it, that's nice. If you don't, that's nice as well, as long as you're enjoying what you DO choose to listen to.

Right?

And to stay focused on the thread topic - I think "automatic" dismissal of a type of music because of a "category" (especially if you have not listened to it) is rather silly. Note that I do not dismiss or disrepect country music. I have listened to quite a bit. I do not care for most of it, but I have a healthy respect for the musicians and the work they put into it.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 11 August 2006 at 11:14 PM.]</p></FONT>

hey Ron Sodos, isn't making a definition of 'good music' and 'bad music' a form of labeling in itself?

I am enlightened to learn that Buddy Emmons played on "Who Knows Where the Time Goes," as pretty a piece of work that has ever been done.
But wouldn't that be 'folk rock'?

Just to muddy the waters a little more.

I wouldn't go so far as to say Nashville didn't care for the Bakersfield sound. I'd say they were probably envious of it at the very least. I came from a r/r background and learned to love country after hearing Leonard by the Hag. Country music as we know it today is a mixture of lots of different blends of rock and country with some others mixed in. I'm a big jazz fan and probably listen to mainstream jazz more than anything but I play mostly country music and the variations that come with it. I never was one dimensional before I took up steel guitar and hope never to be. If all you listen to and play is one style of music, you're cheating yourself to a lot of enjoyment out there. For me it'll never end. I'm a big Bluegrass fan as of late and have taken of the dobro. I hope it never ends.

<SMALL>Gene Jones, would you please stop posting and editing everything you said completely out. I keep missing your posts in time to read em and it's driving me crazy!!! "what the heck did Gene post? ummm?"...!!!</SMALL>

My apology Jesse. I inadvertantly posted on this thread before I realized that it had become so contentious, so I removed my myself from it by deleting my posts. My comments were casual and unimportant and took no sides either way in this controversy.....it's just that having been burned a couple of times I prefer to "stay out of the kitchen" when a subject becomes heated.

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<img height=100 width=70 src=http://genejones.bizland.com/Scan10095.jpg>
www.genejones.com

Jim: I wonder what the "crock" thinkers' opinions are of Buck as a "country-rock" artist? There are quite a few that consider him the granfather of the whole thing.

Long before Buck came on the scene, there were guys like Bill Woods in Bakersfield. Bill could and did play all kinds of country, western swing, hillbilly rock, rock and just about anything else one can imagine. Buck was just a kid when Bill was doing it all, and Bill hired him at the Blackboard and pushed Buck in the right direction. I kind of think Bill is the real father of Bakersfield music.

Not to slight so many others in Bakersfield at the time. Having been there in the 60's, I can say one thing, there sure was some good music coming out of Bakersfield. Billy Mize (Terrible Tangled Web), Red Simpson (Roll Truck Roll and many Buck songs), Merle, Joe and Rose Lee Maphis, man there's just no way to cover them all (right Jason?).

I'm a "real" country fan and give me a bunch of western swing too. There ain't nothing wrong with country-rock either, some is pretty good stuff. Music is music, I like what I like. As for country-rap. That stuff is just plain weird. Try to hum that stuff while puttering around.

country rap?
Ive heard of redneck rap like Bubba Sparks, and Ive seen Jr. and Kid Rock making out, I thought Ive heard and seen just about everything but Ive never heard of country rap. Could you point me to an example cause thats something I'd like to hear (once anyways). Is there other weird permutationsof country i dont know about? country disco? country electronica? emo country? country metal?


i guess there is Alt. Country whatever that is?

Ben, Big & Rich incorporate rap into their mix, and they are played on today's "country" radio stations. Whether that's country, well, see thread above.
Jim, I did not at all mean to imply that you were trying to talk anyone into liking or not liking whatever--I was referring to those who were trying to talk you etc. I agree with everything you said in your last post.
EDIT: Well, not everything. The principles, yes. But I myself really love the country music that I imagine most of the "REAL country" advocates here are speaking of--Ray Price, George Jones, Merle Haggard, etc.--along with Mozart, John Coltrane, Jimi Hendrix..... <font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Brint Hannay on 12 August 2006 at 07:46 AM.]</p></FONT>

Gene Jones - I'm really sorry that you deleted your posts. I've been playing music for well over 30 years, but am a newbie to the steel. Been lurking at the forum for a long time but just recently started to jump in and post. I've always found your posts informative and educational. And some just downright funny. I've learned there are some on this forum who figure they know it all and their educations have stopped, there are some who are pretty closed minded, and there are some who just want to flame and stir the pot without even trying to see some other points of view. For them, this isn't a "forum" it's a "soap box". The comments you posted, while casual and unsided, were informative to me and in my humble opinion, relevant.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Chris House on 12 August 2006 at 08:15 AM.]</p></FONT>

<SMALL>The labels are irrelevant. You either like the "music" or you don't, regardless of genre.</SMALL>

Very good summation.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>.....it's just that having been burned a couple of times I prefer to "stay out of the kitchen" when a subject becomes heated.
</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But Gene, you are a good "cook", and I for one enjoy reading your viewpoint. You do not make a habit out of flame posting, so why worry about it.

Let the thin skinned folks build a little callous. It helps build characture.

Your posts are not angry anyway.

Let us here from the experienced ones, such as yourself, so that we may gain some insight.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 12 August 2006 at 09:01 AM.]</p></FONT>

I agree. Gene is a reasoned voice and I love reading his perspective, because he comes from a different musical territory than I do but doesn't have any "attitude" about any of it. Always some good info.

I think the main problem comes with the word "Rock". If you look at the beat music in the late 40's, early 50's, the Little Richard-style boogie was being expounded by people like Louis Prima, while the Chuck Berry-style was being expounded by people like Louis Jordan. If you mix these with Western Swing you end up with what became known as Rock & Roll. I think the phenomenon had more to do with technology than anything else. You could tell the old styles apart by the acoustic instruments they were playing, but once everyone started using the same electric amplification the styles had to produce a common thread.

But the main problem occurred when the folk boom hit in the 60's. The average listener didn't know what folk music was, so they were told that people like Joan Baez and Bob Dylan were folksingers. What they didn't mention was that the people they had dubbed folksingers didn't always play folk music, so when Dylan started introducing electric instruments the critics made up the ridiculous expression Folk Rock, to simplify the inexplicable. Suddenly all sorts of people, such as Joan Baez, became labelled as Rock singers, and the label Rock came to mean nothing at all. Nowadays Rock seems to mean Pop. So, when the expression Country Rock rears its head, who knows what to make of it ? One can then associate Country music with all the other sorts of music that go by the name Rock, most of which are pretty ugly.

Personally, I like to use the word Rockabilly for the sort of C&W which uses a boogie beat, Merle Travis-type picking, and Bill Haley-type steel. I don't like to hear distorted overdrive. In the 50s if you overdrove the amplifier you would turn down the input to get rid of the awful sound. Nowadays people seem to love amplifier distortion. I don't like to hear it creep into C&W.

By the way, when you look back at Bill Haley, he was a country singer for over twenty years before he ever started singing R&R, and used to run a country radio station during the day, while playing live in the evenings. Ironically he had his first country hit, Empty Heart, and was booked to play the Grand Old Opry when he was pulled out and put on tour by his agent who pointed out that Rock This Joint was being bought like hot cakes by the kids, and they quickly had to create a teen idol out of a middle aged man !<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Alan F. Brookes on 12 August 2006 at 10:51 AM.]</p></FONT>

"I don't like to hear it creep into C&W."

That's a personal taste issue, and perfectly respectable.

But I have a question -

So far people have talked about "country rock"; "real" country; "REAL" country"; and now "C&W" had been thrown into the big mixing bowl.

What is the difference between "C&W", and "REAL" or "real" country (and I STILL don't know what the capitalized/non-capitalized thing means either)??

Where does the "country crooner" stuff from the 60's or so fit (meaning the schmaltzy, smooth vocals over instrumentation with steel often playing fills)?

It's tough to even define what "country" was before the pop/rock stuff you hear now was categorized as"country".

It's the same with any style of music. Someone in the 50s would have had a hard time accepting, say, Metallica as in any way related to "REAL rock and roll", a Jelly Roll Morton fan in the 20s wouldn't likely consider "A Love Supreme" "REAL jazz". So what's REAL country? The Carter Family? Hank Williams? Buck Owens? Jim Reeves? Randy Travis? Kenny Chesney? Lots of people thought Hank Williams bringing drums onto the Grand Ole Opry wasn't REAL country. It's hard to define because it's pointless to try. Who cares what it's called? You like it or you don't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsolqP4tscI

Check out the above post. Forget you're in 2006 and that this fellow has gone down in history as an originator of Rock & Roll.

I don't hear much difference between this and Western Swing.

Look at that lineup... Saxophone, Steel Guitar, Accordion, Guitar and Upright Bass.
<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Alan F. Brookes on 12 August 2006 at 04:39 PM.]</p></FONT>

Please guys ya'll are giving me a headache,You can use steel on ANY kind of music,But real country music[not this crap they call country today]MUST have a steel or it's NOT country.Would be like defining a group without a mandolin,fiddle,or banjo as a bluegrass band.

Alan -

A closed mind is a harbinger of perpetual stagnation and accelerates the effects of aging. Just pick it...

"Would be like defining a group without a mandolin,fiddle,or banjo as a bluegrass band."

Errr....most SoCal bluegrass bands in the 70's were sans-fiddle. Not too many fiddle players around in those days.

And banjo wasn't key in bluegrass originally. Heck, accordion was Bill Monroe trademark for a few years.

I really don't think any instrument makes the music "fit" a certain style. The music stands by itself stylistically, with particular instrumentation not a requirement.

Does "rock" music require an electric guitar on *every* recording?

Don't tell that to Emerson, Lake, and Palmer.

Jim, the "REAL country music" thing was just a tongue-in-cheek comment on how in most threads complaining and comparing today's "country" music to the older country music, the proponents of the older style almost always write "REAL country music"..... I was just needling them, nothing more.

"...real country music[not this crap they call country today]MUST have a steel or it's NOT country."

So, when Buck toured Europe without a steel years back, he wasn't playing country, right? Or REAL country? Then what was he playing? The songs were the same. They had the same arrangements. They had Don and his Tele. They just didn't have a steel.



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Mike
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Blue Moon Highway
(Country Music...and then some.)
www.bluemoonhighway.com

ZB Custom S-10 (#0509)

Right Mike, it's an absolutely ridiculous argument.

Remember the thread in Music about those 3 young Quebe sisters, the fiddle players? What could be more country (REAL country even!) than 3 fiddles, acoustic bass and guitar playing Redwing?

But no steel, so it must be... uh... Bluegrass....? Nope, sorry, as someone said it was country before the Bluegrass label arrived... I don't think of Redwing as Bluegrass anyway... YMMV...

I was playing Redwing when I was a kid and never heard of Blugrass, and it IS country, WITHOUT a steel.

I think this "if there's no steel it ain't country" and "if there's a humbucker on stage it ain't country" etc. is mostly from a few, the fanatics, you find them in everything whether it's music, religion, politics, hobbies, whatever.

People have been playing REAL COUNTRY MUSIC back in the hills with whatever they could get their hands on or build themselves, and this is where country music CAME FROM and truth is it was long before the PSG happened, or even the electric lapsteel. Closest most of them could get was an acoustic guitar with the strings blocked up.

All these "if there's no steel it ain't country" guys don't seem to be too up on their history of country music... REAL country music has been around a lot longer than the steel.

Probably those who were there at the beginnings would argue that if it HAS a steel, it AIN'T country!<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 13 August 2006 at 07:43 AM.]</p></FONT>

I KNOW Charlie isn't that hard-core, and he was just stating a "general guideline" -, not an absolute. But you are right, there are most assuredly fanatics in every type of music....having frequented many, many guitar boards in my former lif as a guitar/bass player, I CAN say that the SGF has an unusually high number of firmly planted, immovable objects, many of whom like to "announce" what "is true" - like at the start of this forum.


Knowing the particular "take" some of these guys have on music (really meaning country music, since it is their sole frame of reference), I tried to be gentle and merely offer some resources in my first post - so that on the outside chance one of them would decide to step outside the box for once, they'd just have some totally harmless reading material. It might give them a slightly new perspective. Probably not (since the chance of any of them buying the book is slim), but it never hurts to try.

Expanding on the idea - if ANY player who is hard-core country ("REAL" country...) and thinks all "country-rock" is trash and the musicians who played it unworthy of a square foot of stage space wants to read the "Desperados" book but doesn't want to buy it, I will loan it to anyone who asks. I think it's such a well-done historical perspective on the whole origin of "country-rock" I'd love for people to just be familiar with the history, even if they don't like the music.

I've done the same in reverse, and bought a few books on the history of country music recently so I won't be flying so darned blind - I've not recognized names, bands, etc. and want to at least know the "neighbors"; and I love history of any kind anyway.

All my buds who already know most of this stuff need to be last in line (heck, some of you are named in the book, so go buy it, you cheapskates! )

I'd rather it go out first to folks totally unfamiliar with the history/players and who, honestly, don't like the music. The purpose is NOT to convince you to like the music, that's your taste and choice. It's just so, like me, you gain some perspective in otherwise unfamiliar territory.

Postage is on me.

PS - Obviously, I'm primarily referring to the "country rock" of the 60's/70's...Byrds, Burrito Brothers, GramParsons, Poco, New Riders of the Purple Sage, Garcia, Great Speckled Bird, and others. But it really does carry over into the current "rock country pop" music.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 13 August 2006 at 08:03 AM.]</p></FONT>