The Steel Guitar Forum

As a 3 year wannabe steeler I am basically self-taught. I have Winnies, Scotty's, Jeffs, Dick Meis, Herb Steiner, Ron Elliott learning aids ALL are good. Should mention Perlowins Theory book too, it is also very helpful.
Learning theory, scales, and the like are very helpful. One day during Christmas break no one was home Just me and my steel
Did not have to worry about anyone listening just sort of shifted my mind into neutral and played. The music just seemed to flow from me! My playing was in time and tune awesome. Have not been able to get back to that groove.
Someone in this thread said it was an Art I believe that is true some folks got it and some may never have it.

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The Lone Prairie Steeler Pat

mr mudgett your post was what i was after , a well thought out response. it seemed fairly unbiased, i will be the first one to say this post got outa hand , sometime;s we all just have to blow off steam and thats ok
never did i point a finger at any indivudal but some took it very personaly i'm not sure why,
your post took a lot of thought and you did it without sounding condecending or letting temper cloud your judgment , we need nore post like yours<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Calvin Walley on 07 January 2006 at 08:36 PM.]</p></FONT>

Nice compliment.

Now, Calvin - are you EVER going to answer any of the questions asked specifically of you? If not, just say so, so we can all move on with the understanding you wanted to ruffle some feathers and really had no goal in mind other than to complain.

mr sliff.
for the last time this thread should not be focused on me but before you bust a stitch or something; i was asking / suggesting a standard by which to measure our progress what kinda of standard , i don't know thats why i was asking and suggesting it hoping someone could come up with one
as far as my personel playing is concerned i am retired i have no dreams of playing in a band its just not something i have any ambitions to do . i am very content to play in my music room and drive my wife crazy with it (she is a pretty good ole gal )i have more time to devote to this than most do and it helps fill an otherwise empty day
i do however tend to speak to many other students/ beginers from all over the u.s. on a fairly regular basis and thats why i started this thread ...oh and my own progress is coming along quite nicely
is there more for me to learn ? of course there is . but i'm in no particular hurry myself
i hope this settles me as the subject

Calvin, I have gotten these same, exact questions and criticisms (sometimes put much more harshly than you have here) when teaching math, computer programming, system design, control systems, whatever. So, I have thought about this kind of thing a lot. Learning anything really new and difficult is hard, hard, hard. And most of us acknowledge that learning to play pedal steel well is definitely difficult.

The first reaction of the typical learner, when faced with something that just baffles them, is to fall back into old patterns, and look for someone or something else to blame when things aren't going well. I have observed myself doing this when trying to learn something new and hard - it's nothing to be ashamed of. I see my students do it also. But it's my job as a teacher to help them get past this. To really learn, this impulse must be fought zealously. Instead, frequent cycles of trial, error, failure, and correction to make things better must be pursued religiously. It means letting go of the fear of failure and looking stupid - this is very difficult for many people. The only thing that I know that can overcome it is strong internal desire to do learn something. With that desire, most anything is possible. Most people I see without it are just spinning their wheels. Hey, I've spun a few wheels myself.

On the subject of "some have it, and some never will" - well, maybe it's true, but I don't think it has to be. I have seen some lost people just turn it around after somehow "seeing the light". Some internal revelation, and they just saw things differently and found a way to focus. I think it maybe happened to me once or twice.

Lots of good stuff in this thread.

One problem I run into as a teacher is students that want there to be some sort of trick to playing. Like if they just understood theory then it would all fall into place. One of the most beautiful and fullfilling parts of playing music is that it needs to be physical as much as mental in order for it to be a way of expressing yourself. This can take relentless drill and muscle training before any intelectual concepts can have any real meaning. The guys that want a shortcut,trick or an explaination don't get anywhere. The interesting thing in my experience is the students that have cheated themselves out of the joy of playing music by always looking for an angle have all had careers in the financial services.

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Bob
My Website

Perhaps what is needed is a 'getting started" type course for absolute beginners.

Like so many others, I was already a moderately accomplished guitarist before I took up the steel, and also had studied music theory in college, so I had a pretty good understanding of how the instrument worked. As I studied Winnie's book, I always knew exactly how the pedals functioned harmonically, and it helped a lot.

It may well be that those of us who played other instrument prior to taking upn the steel can't grasp what it must be like to start playing it without prior musical experience.

Herb, maybe this should be your next project.

Calvin, if you find yourself in L.A. look me up (I'm in the phone book) and I'll give you some pointers.

As far as playing particular licks, or songs, as a memorized pattern, it's just what it seems to be. A collection of memorized movements, which hopefully get more fluid and more "musical" with repetition. People who just want to play instrumentals in their bedroom or garage can memorize from tab or laboriously copy recordings, and as in all things, "practice makes better".

"Playing steel" in a band or jam situation is a completely different pursuit- the skill set involved in figuring out what key a song is in, what changes are coming up, and how to play over/through them is completely different, and mostly unrelated to, having learned various instrumental "patterns"... unless one disects all those instrumentals back down to basics. (Theory)

At the risk of ruffling any feathers, and answering what I think is one of the questions Calvin asks, I propose that there is indeed a shortcut to this process:
Knowledge and Application of Music Theory

One player learns to play "Rocky top" from some tab, and learns a lick or two for Eminor, and that he has to watch out for that wierd "F" chord... and starts all over from scratch for the next song.

Another player recognizes a basic I-IV-V chord pattern, with the addition of a vi minor, and the sound of the flat seven chord... and having mentally catalogged a number of phrases and patterns from the infinite possibilities for covering and connecting these chords, he freely improvises through the changes, never having to play the same thing twice.

If this is what's admired and aspired to in other players, it's not rocket science, and it is teachable, and self-teachable as so many have demonstrated.

Something important to realize- whether the player is thinking in "numbers" or not- that's what they're doing when they play... G-C-G-Em-D-G is a chord progression... but it is a I-IV-I-vim-V-I sequence whether one thinks of it that way or not. The player who thinks in terms of chord (number) movement, and has bags of licks and tricks for every (number) situation, is way ahead of the game.

So why not learn the theory of what's behind and underneath the music we love and want to play, and how to apply that theory to whatever instrument and tuning we use?

It's just common sense. Any amount of difficulty in the study can be overcome by desire. Thousands have proved that before.

how about us putting togather some kinda vocabulary for the steel. i know that when i first started the steel if a fella told me ;
hey calvin i have a lick i want you to try.

what do you think i would have told this man ?
hey we all laugh now but think back if you had only had your steel a week or two and heard that . on this forum there is lots of jargon that a beginers eyes just kinda glaze over when they read it
if nothing else send them to me and i will try to post them

I don't know, Jon Light; David Donald has gone from France to Thailand in the year since the topic linked.

I'm gonna go finish working on my steel, getting it to do what I want it to do. I recommend that anyone else that finds standardization difficult to do the same.

Good luck, Calvin. I know this is not about you, but I've lost the thread of just who it is about.

Mark, that was a brillianr post.

I agree. Mark, that was very well put.

Calvin - I can see what you're talking about now. You have no goal, plan or specifics, just a clear idea that you 1) don't like what there is now, and 2) want something very structured....but have no idea of what that structure is.

Needless to say - if I have that correctly interpreted now - It's an impossible desire to fullfill when there's no tangible idea of what you're looking for.

jim if you don't like this thread , no one is twisting your arm and making you click on it

Hey Herb, that was a question on a recent Who Wants To Be a Millionaire re-run...like a week or so back...

Edward R Murrow's closing line..

HA HA HA !!!

Good night and Good luck

the contestant got it wrong..

Good one Herb...<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 08 January 2006 at 02:56 PM.]</p></FONT>

i agree that this thread has run its course

Calvin, it's not that I don't like the thread. I like discussionos of the current state of learning materials.

I just can't figure out where you're coming from or exactly what you want, and you don't seem to want to really explain it.

jim reread page 1 post 2 mr. hatton had no problem understanding the point of this post
if your are having such a problem comphrending the subject why not just stay out of it . but instead you insist on being antaganistic , if you put forth as much effort to understanding the premise of the thread as you do to antaginisom i'm sure you would understand it by now

Well, if Kevin's post addressed everything you meant to say then he also solved your problem by pointing you to some material that should be just exactly what you say you need... But that sure didn't seem to put an end to anything from your end, and you didn't even acknowledge as much let alone thank him for the tip...

My take on this topic is, as follows. The steel guitar, as we know it today, is a multi faceted insrument. There are many venues of music to play on it, but, basic mechanics and a knowledge of the fretboard and pedal and knee lever changes are paramount in order to play cohesively.
Pedal and kneelever changes have a somewhat standardization ie. ( Emmons or Day ) for E-9th and basic 5 pedal and 1 or 2 knee levers for C-6th. Of course, these too, have been customized to suit the player. But, nevertheless, a standardized system is in place for us to use.
As to instructional courses. There are many, many courses to choose from. And most, if not all follow this system. They have all been simplified by using the "Tablature" method for picking strings and adding pedals and knee levers. Some courses are easier than others because they utilize a rudiment approach the playing a tune. Which is an excellent way for a beginner to learn with. More complicated tab can and will confuse a "newbe". When I started to play steel, tab did confuse me a little bit, but, I got the hang of it in short notice and most steelers do, also. But, you must take the time to understand the corelation of tab to steel playing. It has nothing to do with musical notes on sheet paper. The time signature is there as is the strings to pick per musical bar, but, that's it.
As to getting to mechanics. Jeff Newman has courses that show you how to hold the bar, how to put your picks on, how to place your picking hand over the strings, where you should approximately sit in relation to your steel, how to use your volume pedal and so forth and so on.
I would suggest building information like this and showing your instructor what you would like to achieve. You will probably come out a better steel player for it, because after learning the basics, hopefully your natural instincts will come to the top. The steel guitar is a very personal instrument, in that, I mean, that your feelings tend to come out in your playing after a while. That, my friend, is what will make "you" sound like "you" and no one else.
Standardized insruction is there. If it wasn't, basic E-9th and C-6th steels wouldn't be sold on the market today. Example- S-10 E-9th with 3 pedals @ 4/5
knee levers
D-10 8 pedals @ 4/5 kneelevers
Good luck in your endeavors !!!!

This thread started out as a reasonable topic but somehow it has taken on a different tone.

lets regress..

When I first got my Maverick back around 72 or 73..there was not Steel guitar Forum, No EBAY, No Internet, No EMAILS, blah blah blah..( no x-box either)

I didn't even know there was a such thing as a tab course.

I got a short catalog in the mail once from Sho-Bud and it had a 45 rpm record with some intro's listed on it. I bought it.

Back then, I, We, had to draw on what we knew
already and/or every available resource we could get our hands on...which was really very limitied... I did, along with some assistance from a friend, the now Dr. Marty Friedman, who gave me a quick and dirty lesson or two...

I sat and compared my ES 335 chords that I knew over to the Steel, and found chord positions, not all,but enough to mangle some Loyd Green songs...and from that point never looked back.

Now I don't know many here, I don't know Calvin personally, we have exchanged EMAILS, he seems reasonable, but I think it's time to state the obvious.

There is no obligation for anyone here on this Forum or any other place for that matter to produce a program so that someone else can learn.

Nobody has been born with the right to receive Steel Guitar Instruction material that THEY feel is appropriate.

This is not a God Given right...

I have a few projects out there, for the most part they have been received ok..I have a few more planned and one will address the issue of the "I don't know nuthin" student..

The main issue I get from my programs, ( very few complaints) is that there are some TAB typo's..I hate that when that happens...

Pretty much all of those that contacted me already figured out and fixed the tab errors, which means..THEY GET IT....they thought about it and worked it out, this is a very good thing in my opinion. The didn't need me to tell them that the right note was on the 2nd string rather than the 3rd string...they went beyond the Tab..

Me, I am grateful for any contribution that anyone offers that I can run with..even if it is ONE note...

I don't expect anyone to stop what they are doing and show up at my house and tell me what I am doing wrong, or set me straight
( unless of course Herb, you happen to be in Matthews NC with nuthin to do ) ..and at the same time I don't want anyone to expect ME to do any more than what it is I am able to offer, no wait, make that decide to offer.

I mean no disrespect to anyone..but the simple facts are this..

A school room has 30 or 40 kids in it, the exact same Teacher and course materials..some kids get an A some kids get an F..

Some kids from the exact same graduating class go on to be Dr.'s ,Lawyers etc...
Others get a job at Wallmart ..or uhh..become Steel Guitar players

If we are going to ask an experienced educator to explain anything..ask him why that is....

t

ps..we already know the answer..but I would like to hear the explanation anyway..<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 09 January 2006 at 04:56 AM.]</p></FONT>

Hello Calvin,
Please go back and read from this page(3)the posts from:
Mark van Allen
Dave Mudgett
Herb Steiner
Pete Finney

These men and many others have covered this issue very well. If you digest what has been said, plus have a TRUE DESIRE TO LEARN, and are sufficiently motivated you will see much more improvement in your quest with the steel guitar.

Good night and good luck!

My experience for other beginners that might be reading this thread.

I have benefited from several teachers in different ways because there was no standard.

Jeff Newman - Got me using the right techniques from the start. Got me playing the instrument and making music right away. This gave me confidence and I realized it was possible to learn the steel.

John Hughey and Paul Franklin - No tabs !!
What the $%*&# !!! Well, I dove in and realized that learning from watching and listening (DVD or talk tapes) has its own benefits and I grew as a player. Different approach with different benefits.

Herb Steiner - I got Herb's Swing on E9 course and set down at the steel and ...what the *&%$# !!! He doesn't tell me which pedals to mash! What is this 5++ or 7b stuff?? Well, I stuck with it and soon realized that I was learning how to read tab differently and not using pedal and lever designations as a crutch. Again, different approach - diffenent benefits.

I can go on with more examples but I think you get the picture.

All these courses are fantastic.

I've been playing 10 years now and still learning from courses. Courseware has reduced a 150 year learning curve to 25 years!

Thank you to all the players out there that have developed courses for us. I for one appreciate all the effort you put into your materials and I have benefitted tremendously from it.

Terry<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Terry Edwards on 09 January 2006 at 12:29 PM.]</p></FONT>

Whew! what a day this has been.
If you have read this far, I have a thought.

I have been in some form of music all my life.
I am now retired and picked up a old rusty Sho-Bud LDG
Because I wanted the challenge of learning something new.
But to my point.
I am on a board at a local college
that listens to and grants scholarships to freshman music
students. Piano, band instruments, voice, etc. These students
are expected to practice a minimum of 4 hours a day on whatever
instrument they have chosen. And give periodic recitals throughout
their school year. Their first year they get very good at playing the
instrument. But with that much practice, somewhere along the second
year they start to play “music”
It is an art form. A performing art form. The music comes from
within. It is very difficult to quantify, It is personal, It is what
makes it unique, different from everyone else.

It is not standardized.

Some students don’t make it.
However much they may desire it.
<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Lukas Foppes on 10 January 2006 at 04:46 PM.]</p></FONT>