Singers vs. Steelers

Brett Day · Post by **Brett Day** » 8 May 2006 8:21 pm

I'm a singer and a steel player, but I've been a singer all my life. I love to play steel and sing. Brett, Emmons S-10, Morrell lapsteel, GFI Ultra D-10

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 8 May 2006 8:44 pm

Just one observation regarding this comment
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I find that I really don't pay attention
much to the words. I have played tunes
for years that I would be hard pressed
to recite the lyrics<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
NOT the criteria for good backing, and very self centred.
I think that if you don't know the lyrics, or at the very least the gist of the story, you can't possibly play meaningful complimentary backing.

Now, if you can't do that, how possibly can the vox populi relate to you doing an instrumental when you have no comprehension of the lyrical content that they are subliminally singing.
Instant alienation would be the result of that modus operandi.
IMHO

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Steel players do it without fretting

Henry Nagle · Post by **Henry Nagle** » 8 May 2006 11:37 pm

To my ear an instrumental has to work a lot harder and be very tasteful and dynamic to be worth listening to. One of my least favorite things to listen to are instrumental versions of pop songs. They just bore me to tears. Even when there's some great playing in them. Maybe it's because so often they are recorded with so little consideration (that a presumption for sure). It seems like a bunch of session guys just learn a tune and blast through it taking turns showing off. I don't mean to demean anybody's accomplishments. It's a matter of opinion, and that's mine.

Roy Buchanon's recording of Sweet Dreams is pretty great though.

Pat Kelly · Post by **Pat Kelly** » 9 May 2006 1:14 am

Sorry Basil but I can't resist:

I think that if you don't know the lyrics, or at the very least the gist of the story, you can't possibly play meaningful complimentary backing.

Most of the working musos around here are more interested in turning a dollar than providing complimentary backing.

[This message was edited by Pat Kelly on 09 May 2006 at 02:15 AM.]

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 9 May 2006 3:28 am

Pat, how may progress to being "Professional" or graduate to Session work ?

Andy Greatrix · Post by **Andy Greatrix** » 9 May 2006 6:11 am

The voice is a fretless instrument.
Like all fretless instruments, when used to the fullest potential, can be very expressive(and in tune). On the down side, it can sound like a thumbnail scrapping a blackboard. It's up to the singer.

c c johnson · Post by **c c johnson** » 9 May 2006 8:25 am

I'll take Dayna in my band anytime, I will not have a girl screamer as most seem to be. CC

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 9 May 2006 8:50 am

Maestro Basil wrote:

Now, if you can't do that, how possibly can the vox populi relate to you doing an instrumental when you have no comprehension of the lyrical content that they are subliminally singing.

What are they subliminally singing when Yo Yo Ma plays Bach's cello suite, or when Buddy Emmons plays Pachebel's canon? Does anyone need lyrics to relate to the serenity of Satie's gymnopedies?

Great music stands on its own, on any instrument, without lyrics.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog [This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 09 May 2006 at 09:51 AM.]

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 9 May 2006 10:17 am

A number of us last December (including Forum moderator Brad Bechtel) attended a dobro workshop in the Bay Area that was put on by one of the world's finest dobroists (and brother of Forum member Pat Ickes), Rob Ickes.

Since Jerry Douglas has paired way back on his Nashville studio work because he is so busy with Alison Krauss & Union Station as well as the Jerry Douglas Band, Rob Ickes has pretty much moved into the slot as the most in demand Nashville session player.

One of the exercises that Rob went through was how he approaches playing a song in the studio as his job. He said it was really important to follow the lyrics to get an understanding of how to play. If it's a country song about a dark or down subject (as so many are) he was showing us how he would play to add to the song. The changes might lend themselves to playing more minors to capture the feel.

He said as much as learning good technique and knowing your fretboard, to back a vocalist you need to listen to the song and have an understanding of the lyrics.

You can listen to the last Patty Loveless CD or the most recent one from Jon Randall and check out how Rob's playing enhances the songs. Just brilliant.

Of course when Buddy plays Canon in D Major we don't need lyrics or a singer-but when you have lyrics and a singer, the best players are going to pay attention to what the song is about.

Jerry Douglas, who we have seen play jaw dropping runs in instrumentals, has said that his favorite thing to do is to back a vocalist. What he plays when Alison Krauss is singing is often fairly simple, but amazingly perfect.

Though Lloyd Green didn't specifcally mention lyrics, here is what he said about studio work:

"I didn't have time to flesh it out and make a statement. It never took me more than two or three minutes to figure out what I was going to do. Ideas would kind of pop out. I listened to the tempo, the singer, the ambience of the studio. And I learned early on, listening to playbacks, that less is more."

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Mark
[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 09 May 2006 at 11:44 AM.]

Pat Kelly · Post by **Pat Kelly** » 9 May 2006 11:02 am

Basil,
the professional guys are concentrating on providing complementary backing and leave the complimentary backing to the up and coming "work experience" fellows like me.

Pat

PS Dig the new flag. Has the Coldfield been annexed by the Belfry?

[This message was edited by Pat Kelly on 09 May 2006 at 12:09 PM.]

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 9 May 2006 11:02 am

b0b, you said

What are they subliminally singing when Yo Yo Ma plays Bach's cello suite, or when Buddy Emmons plays Pachebel's canon?

If they know the tune that's probably what !!

But your point about Instrumentals is most valid. who needs lyrics to Chopin Opus 9 no2 in Eb (Maybe there are but they're superfluous, a little like ...OOPS I very nearly said it !!)
I think it's probable that nowadays, most "Tunes' are really 'Songs'

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Steel players do it without fretting

Lee Gustafson · Post by **Lee Gustafson** » 9 May 2006 1:08 pm

If you want to hear good music with a variety of great instrumentals,not necessarily steel, mixed in around a fantastic singer listen to Toni Price. I saw her one night on Austin City Limits and have been hooked on her music ever since. Her band is excellent.

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 10 May 2006 1:21 am

Bunky wrote:

"Will George Benson's tombstone list that he was a great singer or a great guitarist? I think the answer is ovbiopusly a great singer."

That one isn't so obvious to me, and I would imagine a number of others.

I think of George as a guitarist first. "George Benson - great guitar player who as it turned out, was a fine singer as well."

"Glen Campbell, outstanding vocalist and as it turned out, an excellent guitarist and actually got his foot in the door to a successful career as a player."

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Mark
[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 10 May 2006 at 02:22 AM.]

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 10 May 2006 1:25 am

Pat, regarding the flag, for the past 4 years I've been using this one,

only to find out that it's NOT the Hawaiian Flag but that of Kiribati !!
the one I'm using now is the Hawaiian Flag.

As for the Belfry's location, I actually overlook the golf course at the belfry.. Good View of any matches..

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Steel players do it without fretting

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 10 May 2006 1:36 am

I REALY need to correct that "Freudian" slip .... complimentary OUCH
Of course I meant to say complementary, obviously a VERY Senior moment..

About singers, (which is what this thread is Supposed to be..) how do you cope with an aged singer who's memory is somewhat suspect as is his sense of pitch ?
wrong words and somewhere between the cracks, and I just have to "Shut Down"

Still, it's the singer that the majority of us owe our existence to..[This message was edited by basilh on 10 May 2006 at 02:37 AM.]

Dayna Wills · Post by **Dayna Wills** » 10 May 2006 5:20 am

IMHO it takes 3 things to sing: good pitch, good time, good diction. After that, it's what the person can bring to the table. As someone who didn't come out of the womb singing, I had to learn to carry a tune. I spent a lot of time practicing. As a kid, practice was FUN. As an adult, I had a hard time with the guitar. I don't play, but before I put it down, I could make a barred a 7th chord to die for. I totally admire good players because I have an idea of what it takes to LEARN to play. I have had the extreme pleasure of working with some great players. When I had a group, I hired the best I could find and hopefully they sang as well, or if they didn't, they always had instrumentals where they could strut their stuff, and I wanted them to strut, so I could brag about 'em. "Hey, I'm working with so n so." I can't sing without you guys.
DW

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Terry Gann · Post by **Terry Gann** » 10 May 2006 9:03 am

This may be off topic a bit... But you guys are talking all around the issue. Keith Hilton said he wished he could sing. Well, I'm considered a pretty good singer here in KC. That is... until I sit behind the steel! On guitar, bass, mandolin, stuff with frets, I can stand there and sing the heck out of the song while taking a drink between verses and winking at the girls down front. But on PSG I'm lucky to be able to help out with a harmony part. Lap steel is a little better but its just not "Me" singing when playing with a slide. I've seen Joe Wright do it so I know it can be done. I asked Joe how he was able to sing well and play well at the same time. He said it was "muscle memory" and he didn't have to look down at his steel to play it. Anyone have any pointers?

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TerryGannAOneManBand

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 10 May 2006 3:16 pm

Terry I can give you some pointer as to what NOT to do, as here I'm TRYING to sing when I should be just concentrating on playing.
A slightly Adventurous Solo at 1:40
(Just ignore the vocals ?)

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/4st3jN5j1mM"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/4st3jN5j1mM" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="600" height="350"></embed></object>

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Steel players do it without fretting

Terry Gann · Post by **Terry Gann** » 11 May 2006 10:58 am

Basilh: That's what I'm talking about! Singing AND playin' the steel... GREAT JOB! You seem very relaxed while doin' it. While hawaiian isn't my style, I really enjoyed the tune. The "wolf whistle" you do is a fun element of that song. I saw your other video post on another thread. That was very cool, too. Thanks for sharing.

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TerryGannAOneManBand

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 11 May 2006 4:03 pm

I didn't know that George Benson could sing too! Seriously - I have one or two old albums of his, and I'm almost positive they were 100% instrumental. I've always thought of him as a jazz guitarist.

Gordy Hall · Post by **Gordy Hall** » 11 May 2006 7:12 pm

I played for a while with a guitar player who called vocals 'all those things you do with your mouth between guitar solos'.

Jennings Ward · Post by **Jennings Ward** » 11 May 2006 9:17 pm

BOB, I CAN NOT AGREE WITH YOU, AND YOUR POINT OF VIEW MORE.........
TODAYS SINGERS, SOUND LIKE THEY GRADUATED FROM
THE HOG CALLERS COLLEGE OF MUSIC AND THE HOWLER MONKEY SCHOOL OF FINE ARTS...........I TO BUY ONLY INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC, AND ONLY PLAY SAME FOR MY ENJOYMENT...... I FIND THAT TODAYS SO
CALLED MUSIC, VERY IRRITATING TO MY EARS....
YES, THAT INCLUDES THE GOSPEL SONGSTERS ALSO..
I LOVE CLASSICAL RENDITIONS BY ACOMPLISHED MUSICIANS....AND AM QUICK TO DELETE HOG CALLERS...TO ME, A PERSON THAT CANT PHRASE, CAN NOT SING.. PERIOD...A MUSICIAN THAT CAN NOT IMPROVISE, CAN NOT MAKE MUSIC.. I PREFER
PEOPLE WITH THEIR OWN STYLE, AS OPOSED TO CLONES... LOVE ELLA, MARTY R. BUSH, RAY,
BUT NOT J.C. , T.K., AND LOVE TO HEAR MS.
K.D. LANG.... THAT GAL REALLY KNOWS HOW TO
USE HER VOICE, AND DO IT RIGHT....NONE BETTER
COME ALONG LATELY......SA A FRIEND TOLD ME,
IF IT AINT PLEASING TO THE EAR, IT AINT MUSIC....AND THIS PERSON DOES KNOW....HE IS CONSIDERED TO BE THE BEST, IN OUR WORLD...
JENNINGS,, U PK;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

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EMMONS D10 10-10 profex 2 deltafex ne1000 pv1000, pv 31 bd eq, +

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 11 May 2006 9:41 pm

"TODAYS SINGERS, SOUND LIKE THEY GRADUATED FROM
THE HOG CALLERS COLLEGE OF MUSIC"

Won't go on a long spiel Jennings, how about just one: You ever listen to Alison Krauss?

We have had 57 flavors of discussions regarding what is wrong with commercial radio, country radio in particular - but I think there is a lot of fine music being made that you don't hear on the major stations - you just have to dig for it a little bit.

I try to avoid sweeping generalizations. Your statement makes it sound like there is literally not ONE singer today that's worth a darn - although later in the post you do approve of k.d.lang.

BUT NOT J.C. , T.K.,

Excuse my ignorance, but it's getting late out here on the west coast, and I have no idea of whom you are writing. Why use initials?

IT AINT PLEASING TO THE EAR, IT AINT MUSIC....AND THIS PERSON DOES KNOW....HE IS CONSIDERED TO BE THE BEST, IN OUR WORLD...

Is our world the steel guitar world, or the world in general? Whomever it is, that's not a controversial statement that's going to get anyone upset - why don't you just say who it is - what's with the secret?

P.S. Help me out on this one: Who is MARTY R. BUSH?

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Mark
[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 12 May 2006 at 02:31 AM.]

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 12 May 2006 5:04 am

I too fail to see the problem.

The voice was, I believe, the first instrument; then came hollowed-out wood and bamboo things you blow through, sticks with strings attached to them, sticks you beat on other sticks and logs with skins, all emulating the various voices one hears in nature--people, birds, crickets.

A good steel player can make it sing. Following the phrasing of a vocalist, they sing in concert.

A great steel player becomes the song, like a great vocalist. Everybody happy.