Would be nice if folks here knew the language of music

[Fred Treece]

A couple weeks ago a musically knowledgable friend and I got into what I now consider a ridiculous discussion about whether a Dm triad or an Am triad were the best substitute for an Fmaj7 chord. I have a feeling that if we had been playing one and then the other over the chord in question, the thing would have been settled in about 5 seconds. Instead, we spent a few minutes trying to out-duel each other’s music theory competence, with no satisfactory conclusion. Except I won, of course...

[Dave Mudgett]

A couple weeks ago a musically knowledgable friend and I got into what I now consider a ridiculous discussion about whether a Dm triad or an Am triad were the best substitute for an Fmaj7 chord. I have a feeling that if we had been playing one and then the other over the chord in question, the thing would have been settled in about 5 seconds. Instead, we spent a few minutes trying to out-duel each other’s music theory competence, with no satisfactory conclusion. Except I won, of course...

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. It is ridiculous - there is no universal 'rule' for this kind of thing, IMO. It's about the context and what sounds good in that context to a particular person or set of people. And all of that depends on a lot of things. I can say "It's wrong", and you can say, "Shove it.".

Another side of this is the impossible discussions about "What key is this in." Like these -

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=287091

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=153174

and just to show it isn't just here -

https://forum.jbonamassa.com/viewtopic.php?id=6695

And I did NOT mention these to start that old war-horse over again!

[Fred Treece]

Right, Dave. But, in its defense, I wouldn’t dismiss an entire language just because two people abused it with their omission of context in an isolated discussion.

The language of music theory definitely has value and can increase a musician’s understanding of their profession/hobby/other, as well as giving them a means to discuss musical technicalities or give direction to others that one is trying to make music with. I can’t play drums for sh*t, but I like being able to say stuff like “play swing eighths”, or “lay off the ride cymbal for two measures before the 6/4 fill”, and actually have it be understood by the guy behind the kit.

[Dave Mudgett]

Fred - I haven't dismissed anything. For I think the 5th time now, I state that I am all in favor of learning basic principles of music. I have myself, they're useful to me, and I think would be useful for most musicians.

And I think a lot of people on here do have some reasonable understanding of these music principles, at various levels. These are one of many tools musicians can make available to themselves with a little bit of study.

But not everybody does this and it's no big deal. People have their own reasons for approaching music as they do, and that is fine.

I do think so-called 'music theory' of the prescriptive variety has been mis-used at times. I think this is mostly in an vain attempt to enforce orthodoxy in the music itself. I'm not particularly in favor of that aspect of music theory. I think it can be useful to know those types of 'rules' to the extent that they help achieve desired musical goals, and also know that it's OK to break them to achieve desired musical goals. And also OK to just blissfully ignore them. IMO, good music comes from the heart, not a bunch of rules. IMHO.

[Peter Harris]

Fred - I haven't dismissed anything. For I think the 5th time now, I state that I am all in favor of learning basic principles of music. I have myself, they're useful to me, and I think would be useful for most musicians.

And I think a lot of people on here do have some reasonable understanding of these music principles, at various levels. These are one of many tools musicians can make available to themselves with a little bit of study.

But not everybody does this and it's no big deal. People have their own reasons for approaching music as they do, and that is fine.

I do think so-called 'music theory' of the prescriptive variety has been mis-used at times. I think this is mostly in an vain attempt to enforce orthodoxy in the music itself. I'm not particularly in favor of that aspect of music theory. I think it can be useful to know those types of 'rules' to the extent that they help achieve desired musical goals, and also know that it's OK to break them to achieve desired musical goals. And also OK to just blissfully ignore them. IMO, good music comes from the heart, not a bunch of rules. IMHO.

Thank you very much Dave...
...without belittling anyone else's comments, I LIKE the way you have put your thoughts on this.

Regards,
Peter

[Allan Revich]

… I think it can be useful to know those types of 'rules' to the extent that they help achieve desired musical goals, and also know that it's OK to break them to achieve desired musical goals. And also OK to just blissfully ignore them. IMO, good music comes from the heart, not a bunch of rules. IMHO

Exactly this. Knowledge of music theory, and the ability to communicate in the language of music, can be very useful. But “useful” does not equal “indispensable”. Music is like all art. People make it for the pleasure it brings them, and people appreciate it for the pleasure it brings them. Beyond that, it’s all gravy.

[Fred Treece]

Who put the bomp in the bomp bah bomp bah bomp
Who put the ram in the ramma lamma ding dong

the ability to communicate in the language of music, can be very useful. But “useful” does not equal “indispensable”.

You hit what I think a lot of us have been trying to say right smack on the head, Allan.

All the language of music theory does is give us a way to talk about what we’re playing or hearing, beyond “it’s got a good beat”... You can assign your own level of importance to that. I think it’s nice.

[Peter Harris]

Who put the bomp in the bomp bah bomp bah bomp
Who put the ram in the ramma lamma ding dong

the ability to communicate in the language of music, can be very useful. But “useful” does not equal “indispensable”.

You hit what I think a lot of us have been trying to say right smack on the head, Allan.

All the language of music theory does is give us a way to talk about what we’re playing or hearing, beyond “it’s got a good beat”... You can assign your own level of importance to that. I think it’s nice.

Yep!

Agree SO much with that...

...at least now I can relax and make some tea...

[Darrell Criswell]

That's just for people that play a real musical instrument.

Like a banjo?

[Donny Hinson]

I'm a hacker at this stuff, with almost zero knowledge about music theory. And I wouldn't make a pimple on the ass of many of the great players, past or present. But there are some people who like what I play and how I play it, so I feel blessed in that regard.

You don't need a diploma from a culinary institute or a degree in chemistry to make a good cake. I think it's okay to believe that music is the same way.

Could be wrong, though; t'wouldn't be the first time.

[b0b]

Music theory is a practice musicians use to understand and communicate the language of music.
I should think the language of music an asset, as this is after all a Forum.

Music theory isn't the only language of music. It's not even the most common one. Visual cues, chord names, fret diagrams and sung melodies come to mind. A language that most musicians in your band don't understand is essentially useless. You have to find common ground to succeed.

[Peter Harris]

b0b, if we can't have a humor section, can we please have a "Like" button ?

...your comments, and those of others in this thread are pure gold.

Peter

[K Maul]

🤠

** LIKE **

[Donny Hinson]

I think we sometimes forget that a lot of music isn't what you see in notation, chord diagrams, visual cues, and tablature. It's what you hear, what you feel, and how you respond musically to the players around you. As evidenced by...

Ray Charles
Doc Watson
Jose Feliciano
Stevie Wonder
Terri Gibbs
Jeff Healy
Ronnie Milsap

et al.

[Rick Barnhart]

A language that most musicians in your band don't understand is essentially useless. You have to find common ground to succeed.

This statement ought to end this discussion

[Dave Mudgett]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmcNbsLCpBQ

And for even more detail:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofByti7A4uM

[Fred Treece]

A language that most musicians in your band don't understand is essentially useless. You have to find common ground to succeed.

This statement ought to end this discussion

The topic here, as I understand it, is about having a language to discuss music on the forum, not in a band with your mates. Horror of horrors if that were to happen.

I think Brian Wilson probably knew how to talk to people like Barney Kessel and Hal Blaine and Carol Kaye. Thanks for posting that, Dave.