Overtuning (and Undertuning) an All-Pull Steel

[Jim Hankins]

Thank Jon ! That is it, right where your arrow was. yes that " washer " came out of one of those cracks between the fingers right out the top. I had to tug on it a little to pull it all the way out, it was tight. The cross shaft does not appear binding, with a little wiggle room present, consistent with the other shafts.

[Jon Light]

I don't have a clue what's going on with that. I've never been inside the changer so I've got nothing to draw on.
I've got nothing more to offer.
You definitely should post this as its own topic. Not enough traffic here and you need way more than I've got.

[Rick Schmidt]

Really great Jon!

[Detlef Webert]

...very good description of the problem and how to fix and get around it.

very appreciated !

Detlef

[Jon Light]

Thanks.

This can be sneaky, too. I was recently troubleshooting some tuning inconsistency on one of my guitars. Spent way too much time trying to figure it out. Yep -- me, the author of this thread -- I was overtuned. I'd been trying some unusual split tunings and was concentrating too hard on the technical stuff and let the simple rod slack get away from me.

[Michael J Pfeifer]

Hi, Jon,

Thanks for sharing this information. You said, "Anyone with tuning problems with their steels and uncertainties about what I've tried to describe in this post—ask away." I don't think I have the problems you describe here, but I'm not sure. The E-9th raises after releasing the B pedal, and the 6th string note returns flat. After releasing the lower RL knee lever, the note returns sharp. Backing off the nuts, there seems to be play for all strings being used, but I'm not sure. When nuts are tightened, should there still be wiggle room? How do I determine that for sure?

[Jon Light]

I don't know what more I can add to all the suggestions that people have provided you.
To check rod slack, simply grab the nylon nut and pull. If you can pull it off the the changer, the rod has slack. Also, with the guitar upside down, just move the levers back & forth and watch the nut. Or grab the rod and push in & out and watch.

[Michael J Pfeifer]

Jon,

Okay. Thanks

[Dale Rottacker]

For me, it seems that overtuning is something that "creeps" in over time, especially if you're tuning pedals and levers more than open strings.

When things start getting wonky, I'll start backing the hex off with nothing engaged to see if the pitch of that string changes any. And from time to time, I'll just back most of them (frequently used) off and start from scratch for a fresh start.

[Michael J Pfeifer]

Dale,

Thanks for sharing. I think it is a case of overturning.I'm just not sure, but I will find out.

[Roger Rettig]

Jon - many thanks for the time you've taken to share your expertise.

I'm somewhat mystified by a recurring issue with my 4th pedal (LeGrande 111/ D-10).

It's constantly being changed on C6th. It's my 'try-out' pedal. It is, admittedly, pulling a lot of strings (three on E9 and two on C6) but it is very stodgy and requires effort to fully depress.

My question: why does this problem get worse when I put a 'lower' on C6 rather than a raise (or so it seems)?

Yesterday, I switched MKV with P4. My reasoning was that 'reverse P6' (lower 2nd E-Eb, raise 6th E-F) requires only a half-tone change on both strings and would be better on a vertical (less throw).

But, then I assigned the 6th string lower (E to D) to P4 and, while it satisfactorily tunes to the required pitch, it's really an effort to floor the pedal. It feel spongy and, frankly, unsuitable for its purpose (single-note lines needing a brisk pedal action).

This falls outside the 'Overtuning' issue (or does it?), thanks for any tips you may have.

[Jon Light]

Hey Roger. You are pushing the limits of my ability to visualize. I'm sometimes smart when I have my hands on a guitar and my nose in its underbelly. From afar, I might as well hold a seance.

However , regarding different feels of raises vs lowers -- the fundamental difference between raises & lowers is that raises have the string tension itself to ensure pitch return when you release the pedal/lever.
Lowers require the assistance of the return spring, otherwise the string would just stay relaxed and happy that you lowered it.
So if the return spring is adjusted with too much tension, the resistance of a lower could actually exceed the resistance of a raise.

Adjusting the return spring might make a difference.
Of course, inadequate spring tension will totally mess things up --- lowers and raises.

Everything affects everything.

[Roger Rettig]

Hi, Jon

Well, that's worth a try. Tomorrow, I'll upend the guitar again and see what I can see, bearing the spring-tension in mind.

Part of me has a feeling that things are getting mighty crowded around the changer, what with 9+8. I can't always route rods where I'd like to for appearance's sake and maybe there's some friction occurring.

Many thanks for your blindfolded analysis!