The Steel Guitar Forum

Posted: **20 Jun 2003 11:25 am**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Is this a great forum or what! I'm hiring a translator that should be in Monday that has promised to let me know what Maurice is talking about. (Or Bill Hank(e)y, whomever it is).
bOb, this is the best forum in the world! It has to be true if Reeceie-poo says so. What great entertainment, no fact here, but great entertainment. With fun like this I can sell my TV!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes!.. I believe it's a standing 8 count!

.....

...

..

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Fun isn't really Fun unless it's at some elses expense.

-James Clayton Day-

(After a practical joke at the expense of the Museum Guard at the Smithsonian Institute involving a microwave and a pretended "pacemaker" in 1978.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...
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[This message was edited by Eric West on 20 June 2003 at 12:41 PM, to call for a "mass prayer" but considering the approaching <blink>"rat pack"</blink> he decided to let it stand][This message was edited by Eric West on 20 June 2003 at 02:34 PM.]

Posted: **20 Jun 2003 11:57 am**

Reece,

Great thread and great responses. I totally agree with everything you have said regarding your viewpoint of 'tone' and the characteristics of the steel guitar.

See you soon,

------------------
Bill Sampler
Carter S-10/DB 4x5
Nashville 1000
POD Pro

Posted: **20 Jun 2003 12:00 pm**

..Eric, the dog that says "can't we all just get along" doesn't lead the pack..[This message was edited by Pat Burns on 20 June 2003 at 01:01 PM.]

Posted: **20 Jun 2003 1:29 pm**

Very informative conclusion Reece, which most people have to agree with! The technical
subjects of this Forum is what keeps me hanging around. If a person wants entertainment and amusement I would recommend
the B.S. Forum.
Your statements have been very clear and understandable by my grandson who is an 8th grader, therefore we must have empathy for anyone who has not had an educational opportunity .
I can see why you do not particpate very often in the technical aspects of the Forum. Some people can make a folly out of anything for their own amusement. [This message was edited by Richard Gonzales on 20 June 2003 at 02:32 PM.]

Posted: **20 Jun 2003 3:14 pm**

..just got home from work and checked my personal emails...saw this one from Reece from this morning, which he asked that I respond to either privately or on the forum, so I'll do it on the forum...here's the email, regarding my comment further up page 3 of this topic in which I responded to his comments with "respectfully, is this still about 'Steel Guitar Tone?'"

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Good Morning,

I respectfully ask you upon what premise you base your opinion relative to subject straying away from my original topic of steel guitar tone, when I consider my entire thread and my responses are built around that very subject?

I respect your opinion, but at this time I don't see or understand your rationale. Care to comment to me personally or direct your response to this question on the forum?

Kindest Regards,

Reece<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

..perhaps I'm wrong, it's happened before..but I read your comments as strictly an airing of your grievances with Bobbe Seymour. It's no secret that the two of you have had public disagreements on many subjects. Now certainly Bobbe has aired his greivances here, too, so I'm not saying that you're alone.

Since you asked, what I was saying was that the post in question, although following logically upon the initial premise, had little or nothing to do with steel guitar tone and my rationale for saying it was that the comments were clearly directed to an individual, Bobbe Seymour in particular, and not to the forum in general.

I'm not the kind of person who will try to pretend there is not an elephant in the room if there is one...I am the kind of person who attempts to use humor, in most cases, to point out the incongruities and ironies that I see everyday. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Some people appreciate it, and some don't.

In case you hadn't guessed, I own an Emmons push/pull and I'm of the opinion that it has "that tone". I joke around about it, along with others, just like you might joke about how your hometown football team is better than the other guy's team. Any sensible person knows that you'll never get everyone to agree on what's the best tone, any more than you could get everyone to agree on who's the best quarterback, or pitcher, or best whatever. The whole premise of "best tone" in a forum topic is an invitation to a free-for-all. That's why those topics get so many hits....and I like a good bar fight as well as the next guy..

No offense was intended, Reece.

Posted: **20 Jun 2003 5:27 pm**

What Elephant?.......mmfff.....uuuurgh.......

I can't say that my more than passing glances and participation on "these strings" is merely a result of my bieng "underemployed" at the moment, and being directly involved in "setting more work", and "becoming a better Steel Player. It's not. I'm a veteran of "political boards" where no-holds-barred flame wars, identity theft, and other scurrlious internet activities went on for pages, filled hard drives, and caused more than one server to melt down, and probably a door or two to be broken down. That's where I learned to type.

I must note, and I don't say this casually that the "State of Music" as a business has caused a lot of dogs that are best when pulling sleds to be "sitting around the camp". Fights break out. Any big surprise?

Using Portland OR as a reference: In 1985 there were 20 clubs here that went fulll tilt, 7 nights a week. On a given night you could find 7 steel players plying their trade. Don at Sierra was selling PSGs as fast as his subsidized crew could put them out the door. Not just to Portlanders. He even got BE and BC to use and endorse them. Probably more to "bust the hump" of the "hierarchy" of elite Psg mfrs than anything else. I never liked their "tone". At that point, I think he cared even less what "I" thought. He still sold them all day long at 6 grand apiece.

NOW, in Nashville FWIG there are top name guys hanging around playing "shamelessly" for 15-20 bucks a night with their union cards in their wallets. PSGs on Ebay for 25 cents on the dollar, less in local papers, and they are for the most part "slightly used", and we're all dying to see the next "urban cowboy" craze. Myself, I'm waiting with the appropriate scriptural studies, and pancake # 10 to see of RR starts a new "craze".

There are two "elephants" represented by the two "opponents" in this "bout".

One appears to be Mr Anderson, who in this time or overabundant PSGs is determined to manufacture and sell a new, state of the art PSG. He has his work cut out for him. I've only seen the guitars, but they look "state of the art" to me.

Appearantly Mr Seymore is determined to be successful at selling used guitars. Though the price is indeed down, so is the demand.

Somewhere in this world, there is to this very day a company that successfully makes and sells gold inlayed buggy whips.

Somewhere in this world there is a company that successfully sells used buggy whips.

In the case of Portland, at this point there is ONE club that goes 7 nites a week, and it is failing to pay the bills. The PSGers that actually want to sell guitars they have probably surpasses the ones that want to buy them.

If I were working 7 nites a week for months on end, I'd probably buy a new MSA just to say I had one. As it is, I'm lining up firewood so I don't have to spend my house payments buying natural gas this winter if construction doesn't pick up. I've filled up every weekend, one and a half five nighters a month, and a full week at the Pendleton Roundup at the Red Lion in Sept. ( Last time I played a week there, the first day of the gig was Sept 11 '01)

My day job is in the toilet, and I'll be making about 17 k instead of the 48-52k I'm "used to" making.

I am "giving" business to those valiantly "still in the business" like Jerry Wallace, Duane Marrs, Juststrings, and others. If I wanted to get a line on a good used guitar, I'd probably call Mr Seymore if I didn't have more local connections.

For better or worse, I represent the "players" that are "working the most" in Portland. I can tell you, sometimes it IS actually out of pure Spite. "We" all have "our eye" out for a vintage ZB or SB Custom, or a new instrument, but it's in the back of our collective minds due to the lack of our ability to make them pay for themselves.

Until the time when things change, I don't envy either Mr S or Mr A.

Neither do I feel sorry for them.

Never Feel Sorry for a man that owns an airplane. -EJL-

I also noted the "inceptor" or this string, and the first post translated by me read: "I am bored, and might as well spend a couple days typing. All my ordered guitars are shipped."

I noticed BS'es "reply" reading: So am I, and there's not a hell of a lot "selling" right now."

I'm praying for both of youse.

.... now if I can get this big gray thing off me.... I HOPE it's a trunk.....

I'd give it to Mr Seymore for sheer brevity and "wit".

TKO

One Hint to All Involved:

Break up your paragraphs.

Even when you don't need to.

It makes it easier for us people that have AADD and short attention spans to read.

EJL

( continues praying feverishly....)

[This message was edited by Eric West on 20 June 2003 at 06:28 PM.]

Posted: **20 Jun 2003 5:37 pm**

Well, I guess Pat said it all. I have many humorus things I could add to this thread, but it would be redundant as everything that can be said, has been. As far as tone goes, I still stand by my research and the research and ideas that have been explored by myself with Bruce Zumsteg, Ron Lashley,David Jackson, Jerry Fessenden ETC. over a period of many years. To say that good tone is all in ones mind and that every steel guitar is equal is ridiculous. Anyone that is honest, can hear or has an IQ over 50 knows this. Are there several "Good types of tone?" Sure! Are there several bad types of tone? Sure. Are there people that won't admit the difference when they can hear it? Yep!
But here we go again, redundantcy. Everything that can be said has been.
Anything else said will only be of a personal nature, or just for the sake of argument.
Pat, you have again impressed me.
Speedy G., your still an idiot! Ha Ha!
I, out of respect to bOb, hold back on a lot of issues on this forum, as well I should. My "Steel Guitar Nashville " forum is not run this way but is a total free speach forum, like it or not. This has some advantages and gives a different meaning to "say what you want, no censoring, free speach". Reeceie-poo won't go there, he would rather hide behind the censoring policy of this forum. This means, the public only gets a censored version of our debates.(Plus his personal e-mails he sends out to try to get support for his point of view on the forum.)
I'm just very glad that we have forums. These forums have been wonderful for informing the players of a multitude of facts in the world of steel guitar. And a few things that aren't facts. But the intelligent players always seem to be able to tell the difference between the true and the untrue. There are many things that have been said on this very thread, Some in anger, some in humor, some stupid things, some great things, but many things to ponder. The truly intelligent readers will recieve knowledge and benifit from this thread, the others won't, but thats OK too, they were entertained,and it was free!

"Many things make a difference, but without a decent sounding guitar, all is naught.
Players who can't realize this are relegated to the ranks of "also rans" when it comes to tone." (I quote me)

More than one good tone? sure, but now we are back to "redundancy".

Thank you too bOb

Posted: **20 Jun 2003 5:56 pm**

Sorry Eric, I posted before I saw your"break up the paragraphs" post.
One more thing Eric, I do truly sell used, restored and demo steel guitars, but I am also a dealer for a few great "new guitars" and try to keep a good stock at all times. New in stock now is the last "New" Sho-Bud known to exist, a red Super Pro, aluminum necks, I also recieved two new Emmons LeGrandes this week for immediate sale. Fessenden is selling well.GFI has done VERY well recently. As far as business being down, I'll have to say that all seven employees here now can work as many hours as they wish, and they are all paid well, as far as the "steel industries" go.

We sell, restore, repair, modify and have a parts service for all popular pro brands of steel guitars.

We are also a Peavey Amp dealer, and sell all professional steel guitar products.

We try to keep everything in stock and on display at all times. We ship all over the world daily.

We are now also providing a full steel guitar school, classes, video tape lessons and sales, along with private lessons.

We are doing everything we can to ferther the cause.

You think business is down? I really wish it were, just a little!

Get by to see our newest warehouse location, you'll be impressed, and you'll get some free stuff!

Bobbe Seymour
Steel Guitar Nashville
123 Mid Town industrial Court
Hendersonville TN, 37075

615 822 5555
If you have a video phone, ask for "Brandy"[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 20 June 2003 at 07:03 PM.][This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 20 June 2003 at 07:05 PM.]

Posted: **20 Jun 2003 6:40 pm**

Is anyone actually reading this ?

It's like a novel where every chapter is exactly the same as the one before it.

Oh well..

Like Mike S. stated about 5 pages ago in a hundred years all of our Steels will be vintage antiques but also true is that in a hundred years we will all be dead..but

I bet this topic will survive all of us...

tp

Oh yea..I got another amp today..

hey it was worth a shot..

I sold my 40 watt Fender Hot Rod Deluxe ( great little amp ) which I was actually using for double duty on the small gigs . I stepped up to the Fender 60 watt Hot Rod 2x12 Deville. The bottom end clarity is superior to the 40 watt single 12" Deluxe.

AND..the Steel sounds great with these amps..

AND..the Tele' really blasts off too..

ok

I'm done [This message was edited by Tony Prior on 20 June 2003 at 07:48 PM.]

Posted: **20 Jun 2003 6:45 pm**

Tony, are you ever correct! I hope no one is reading it, I don't think many could possibly wade through it. We should all be jailed for "Redundancy in the first degree!".
I'm gone---------

Posted: **20 Jun 2003 6:50 pm**

Bobbe..what did you say ?

TP

Posted: **20 Jun 2003 7:05 pm**

I said "I'm gone". I'm laughing to hard to type!!!!

Posted: **20 Jun 2003 8:26 pm**

Wisdom from a higher source:
A merry heart doeth good like a medicine.
...and this is what this forum is about. At the same time, if you happen to become informed, so much the better.

Rick

Posted: **20 Jun 2003 10:52 pm**

I cannot speak as someone who is totally unfamiliar with the two men presenting opposing viewpoints.

Starting with my becoming an MSA owner, Reece has always been there for me to answer any trifling concern about equipment or music itself. I've probably received at least a few hundred dollars worth of free music lessons via e-mail from him.

I haven't communicated personally with Bobbe as much, but he too has freely offered his experience to me on and off this forum. Sometimes, he has done so in a way strikingly unconcerned with his considerable past experience and success.

I hope both will positively receive my interpretation of what has so far been posited in this thread.

I understand Reece's chief contention to be essentially this:

In the absence of any present objective criteria -- and perhaps the impossibility of establishing any -- for quality of tone, all discussion which revolves around said valuation is of a suspect (if not altogether invalid) nature.

If I am missing some subtlety in your argument Reece, please correct me.

I can't help but notice the similarity here between Reece's stance and that of what is known in quantum physics as the "Copenhagen Interpretation." Not to give the impression that I've read more on the subject than I have, but the philosophical parallel between the dispute regarding this scientific doctrine and our present discussion is so compelling that I see it as a useful example.

If memory serves correctly, Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle states that since the act of observing a subatomic particle disrupts it, it is impossible to know both the particle's position and energy at the same time.

What this means is that current observational methods prohibit an exact deterministic analysis of subatomic phenomena. It's only possible to speak in terms of statistical probability.

So, how does this apply here?

Two diametrically opposed views developed over what to do with this information and other related ideas of the time. Niels Bohr and the Copenhagen school interpreted this data to mean that since exact determination of cause and effect could not be observed and/or proven,(as had been the Newtonian paradigm), science should proceed as if said determinism were impossible.

On the other side of this argument was Albert Einstein, who believed this path to have only temporary heuristic value. Hence, the famous statement by Einstein:

"God does not play dice."

Many times this uncertainty in observing determinism in cause and effect has been used to put forth the idea that such determinism doesn't exist. In newspaper articles, I have often seen superficial reference to quantum physics used to justify the belief that our universe is randomly unfolding. Needless to say, the implications of this are obvious.

This present discussion also brings to mind how the old attempts at rationally proving the existence of God became increasingly more suspect with the passing of time. And yet, although different individuals and cultures express their religious beliefs and experiences in vastly different terms, and perhaps cannot rationally or scientifically prove the basis of what they speak, does this necessarily mean that there is nothing of a common nature to these divergent experiences, or that they are all ultimately invalid?

I will sum up this excursion into seriousness by saying that while objective criteria may not presently be available for calibrating "good tone," we may be premature in assuming that such a quality does not exist as a substratum to our divergent translations of it.

I shall maintain at least an open-mindedness to the existence of the unproven positive, until the negative is conclusively proven to my satisfaction.

Respectfully,

Jeff S.

[This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 21 June 2003 at 12:06 AM.]

Posted: **21 Jun 2003 12:20 am**

"I have often seen superficial reference to quantum physics used to justify the belief that our universe is randomly unfolding. Needless to say, the implications of this are obvious." -Jeff-

You know Jeff, I was just thinking that today.....

Bobbe: I'm certain that anyone with "determination" can and will prosper in the hardest of times. I'm sure you're doing well. I know you sell "new" guitars, but I should have said "Guitars that are not of his specific manufacture".

Reece: As a "little guy" I have no clue as to how the New MSAs play or sound in person,so I couldn't tell you much about the differences between it and others. In my scant 25 years I've played one Sho~Bud, One Sierra, one "PP Emmons", a Dekley, and a ZB Custom. I didn't like anything as well my Sho~Bud. Even worn out as it is. I've played it since I bought it for 600$ 26 years ago and done literally thousands of gigs with it. Not even once did I not get paid, and if they wanted their money back, they didn't tell me about it. Nobody should take my opinion on it as anything more than just that. I like what I like.

Both of you show determination in your "trades". Your successes probably outnumber your "failures".

I have "Determination" to play as much as I can in this dried up town, and play as much today as I did in the "heyday" for the most part. Believe me, and ask anybody out here, it's not "that easy". Sure a lot harder than it was 15 years ago. Wages are less too. No thanks to Local 99.

Hauling heavy equipment is the same way. I AM working probably three days a week in the worst economy in the Union, and there are people with 20 years experience that haven't worked a day in a year. No thanks to the Teamsters Union 162 or 503.

Determination is Patience with Teeth. You can't tell the two apart until you are close enough to see them.

Hopefully I will not be so worn out on the account of fighting my way through the couple years of struggle I see out in front of me to enjoy another "upsurge" and "catch the wave". I dunno. Quite a few of my friends won't be living to see it.

Now that my prayers have been answered here, I can go back to praying for a global economic recovery. God can get back on it too.

Things seem to go to crap when "we" get "diverted"....

Time for Bill Hankey to propose another "theorum".

I'm ready.

[This message was edited by Eric West on 21 June 2003 at 01:49 AM.]

Posted: **21 Jun 2003 4:00 am**

BS: We try to keep everything in stock and on display at all times. We ship all over the world daily.

No you don't. I still have your emails and posts telling me you no longer sell certain parts and you refuse to ship overseas. Remember?
(And if you are doing so well, why do you have to sell your TV set?)

Back to TONE, not tone-of-voice.

------------------
Peter den Hartogh-Fender Artist S10-Remington U12-Hilton Volume Pedal-Gibson BR4 lapsteel-Guya "Stringmaster" Copy-MusicMan112RP-Peavy Rage158- - My Animation College in South Africa

Posted: **21 Jun 2003 4:33 am**

Jeff, I agree with your comments and the analogy to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle.

I have played music since second grade, pedal steel since 1970, and have a degree in Computer Science and Engineering, yet find your comments to be more logical and easily understood than either of the principals in this "discussion".

I guess it's either my scientific persuasion or the fact that you are also a Smith!

Posted: **21 Jun 2003 4:50 am**

I guess it's either my scientific persuasion or the fact that you are also a Smith!

Works for me!

Lem

Posted: **21 Jun 2003 5:10 am**

..hopefully this will be the end of this topic..Reece sent me another email this morning thanking me for my comments and gave his permission to post it on the forum, so here it is...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Good Morning,

I want to thank you for your intelligent and courteous response to my email and I can assure you I respect your comments and right to provide them.

My original comments were not directed toward Bobbe or anyone specific. Bobbe joined the discussion of his own free will. The reasons why he done so is totally clear in that my comments obviously conflicted with what he has been touting over and over and over and over and over while attempting to install himself as "The grand interpreter" of what steel guitar must sound like to be successfull in the world of music, both now and in the future. His futile attempts to do so will no doubt be overcome by intelligent logical and open minded people who are leaders not followers.

My comments were submitted with only one thing in mind, and that was to offer my view in the hopes it would help others to realize there is more than one sound and one perspective of tone relative to steel guitar. My intentions were that simple, and no malice toward anyone was intended nor was a conflict anticipated. I simply provided my opinions and the spirit in which I offered them was sincere.

In closing may I again tell you how much I appreciate your response.

Kindest Regards,

Reece

And yes, you have my permission to also place this on the forum if you are so inclined.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

..as long as they still privately refer to each other by their first names, there has to be an underlying mutual respect at a fundamental level...

Posted: **21 Jun 2003 6:50 am**

I'm fairly certain I'm in the minority and I'll probably get clubbed over the head, but here goes anyway. I personally think "that tone" is Lloyd Green on his Sho-Bud. To my ears he had the best tone ever to come out of a steel, and the beautiful thing is....since it's my opinion, I'm right!!! If you think Buddy on a p/p is.....you're right too!!! It's all opinion. I just think there is too much combativeness over what anyone's opinion of good tone is.

Posted: **21 Jun 2003 7:21 am**

As I have stated before...

"Tone schmone...just play the damn thing!"

That being said, most of the "tone" comes from the amp! I certify and guarantee this. Allow me to control the amp (if it's a modern amp...none of them oldies with just a volume control

), and I'll make any player, on any guitar, sound terrible...Emmons, Franklin, White, Hughey, whoever. Bring 'em on, and I'll show you what a bad sound really is. Adjusting an amp to get a good sound is far more important than most people realize.

Now, you guys can change pickups, pedals, strings, guitars, changers, bars, speakers, tubes, transistors, digital-thingys, necks, cords, picks, JIvsET, or whatever, until the cows come home. Just remember...if you don't set the amp right, it'll still sound like crap. (Oh yeah, you have to be able to play the thing, too.)

This pointless arguing about which guitar sounds best is like two 10 year-olds arguing about which of their father's cars is faster.

Posted: **21 Jun 2003 7:41 am**

"God does not play dice."

To which Niels Bohr responded to Einstein's statement: "stop telling God what to do". This is a fact Jeff...no kidding.

Reese's statement to Pat Burns:

My comments were submitted with only one thing in mind, and that was to offer my view in the hopes it would help others to realize there is more than one sound and one perspective of tone relative to steel guitar.

This fact was (I believe), never in doubt by most thinking members of the forum, almost to the point of being self evident. Also, the purity of Reese's intentions is quite apparent.

At the same time, I can appreciate Bobbe's humor. I love this approach to a serious subject. Sometimes it can expose truths that would otherwise would not be brought out.

Reese's straight forward approach contrasts Bobbe's humorous approach to the same facts. This is the principle difference I see in this discussion.

Rick

[This message was edited by Rick Collins on 21 June 2003 at 08:44 AM.]

Posted: **21 Jun 2003 7:47 am**

Thank you Pat for posting this e-mail from Maurice. I feel it truly shows his true charictor and exposes his venomous side that he tries to keep hidden from the masses. I feel it also shows all folks the true person he is, as if it hasen't been exposed by many folks over the last 20 years. I have never attacked him in this thread, I have no reason to and I don't need to. The only thing I have tried to expose is that some guitars sound worse than others. He has taken my opinions personally, possibly because of an inferiority complex or who knows what, I really don't care. I offered my opinions on this post and he took them personally, that's fine too. I have totally forgiven him years ago for all problems we had as kids at MSA. His anger seems to continue to grow. (and his ears haven't gotten any better, grin). Nowhere in any of these posts have I seen a light side of his personallity, Humor? Where? I also haven't seen any educational benifits to his posts. All I've seen is his philosophizing opinions that "there is no bad tone anywhere, it's just an opinion". Tone is just an opinion? If you agree with that fine, my opinion is that I don't, and I have just as much right to give my opinion as he does his, right? Folks don't have to agree with it, but it's there.
I am so proud to be the recipient of his undying admiration however, I don't lean in that direction,
This thread is getting way beyond redundant, rediculous, mean and noneducational. I feel the whole thread was set up from the beginning just to do what it has done. I took the bait, for entertainment perposes. I hope those that could wade through it liked it. I sort of enjoyed it myself but am ready to start on something more educational.
Thank you Maurice for giving me a platform with which to offer my opinions. You want a second opinion? I have one waiting.

Posted: **21 Jun 2003 7:52 am**

Yes Rick, I have stated many times now that I'm glad we don't all get the same tone AND I have stated that there are many good tones. You are a very dilligent reader.
This post wasen't started to get opinions on tone but rather to start controversy.

Posted: **21 Jun 2003 8:21 am**

I'm disappointed that some members have used this topic to launch personal attacks on other members. I'm closing it now, before someone gets fired up enough to say something they'll regret later.

------------------
<img align=left src="http://b0b.com/Officeb0b.gif" border="0"> Bobby Lee
-b0b- quasar@b0b.com 
-System Administrator

The Steel Guitar Forum

Steel Guitar Tone!