Upon Reaching the Statistical End of Your Life?

Niels Andrews · Post by **Niels Andrews** » 26 Mar 2013 12:43 pm

True Sonny. How often we lose sight of what is really important. I for one had to lose everything to find anything. There is so much that we don't know, and I don't believe we are meant to know the wonderful thing about it is we are all at a different point in our spiritual path. Kinda like our guitar playing.

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 26 Mar 2013 1:23 pm

The meaning of life cannot be to deny it.
I can no more give up my Christian belief than I could give up the love for my parents or the people I know.

How does chocolate ice cream taste? You must experience it yourself.
Without a doubt, I have experienced the love of God since I was a very, very young boy.

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 26 Mar 2013 8:32 pm

You can speculate all you like about what is waiting for you on the other side. However, no one knows for certain. No one ever has. And that in itself is very beautiful in its own way. We don't have much left when it comes to mysteries these days.

It's a wonderful and important thing that all are entitled to their own beliefs. But remember, they are only BELIEFS. Don't confuse them for FACTS. Problems arise when people talk about heaven as a place that they KNOW exists, just as problems arise when atheists claim it's simply "lights out." People should be more humble about beliefs that are not grounded in fact. Call it faith or whatever you like. You don't know what happens after you die. Simple as that.

Why do we feel we need to get a grasp on the afterlife? Because we are scared. And that's why religion gives us this hope of eternal life, and atheism tries to steel ourselves for the perceived lack of it.

As someone who grew up Catholic, I liked it when they'd mention mystery as part of the dogma. It's important to admit that you don't know what's beyond the gates. If the belief in a tangible afterlife gives you comfort, more power to you. But you don't know.

Personally, I view death as special and unique for the very reason that no one has a clue about it. We are all equal in that regard: atheists, believers, agnostics. It's the ultimate "surprise ending." Enjoy the eternal mystery, and remember to be humble about things of which we have no knowledge.

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 27 Mar 2013 7:44 am

I can't say for sure if there is a God as we think of him, but I hope so! For those who only believe in what they can see, touch or feel, just think about the universe for a second. It never ends! It just keeps going on and on and on forever. Somewhere out there, there might even be a parallel world to this one for all we know. Sid Hudson said it best "Faith"... That's all we can rely on as there's no proof of any afterlife anywhere. There's no one who's ever came back to earth after being dead for a year or two is there? I am a member of a Christian Church but I'm really not sure that Jesus is the answer simply because there are a lot more non-Christians out there than there are Christians and are they all wrong? Buddhism has been around much longer that Christianity as has the Jewish religion... I'll keep going to my church every Sunday and trying to live my life in a moral way and "hope" I'll be rewarded with an afterlife.... If not, so be it.......JH in Va.

Rick Barnhart · Post by **Rick Barnhart** » 27 Mar 2013 12:13 pm

Jerry, I've always believed that living a good moral life is a reward unto it's own here on earth. If it ends up as an eternity in Heaven, well.. Bonus

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 27 Mar 2013 12:58 pm

Kudos to the group and a tip of the hat to b0b for this thread maintaining a civil tone. Everyone seems to have been able to state their point of view and counter view in a (heartening) civil manner.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 27 Mar 2013 1:03 pm

Yeah, it is pretty unusual, ain't it...?

Fred Glave · Post by **Fred Glave** » 27 Mar 2013 1:49 pm

I have a non-religeous take on the "afterlife" from a quantum physicist I heard on NPR that I like. He said that the universe is eternal and infinite in time and space both frontward and back and in all directions. However there is a finite amount of matter and compounds in the universe. So from a statistical standpoint it's just a matter of time before everything is put back together again exactly the way it is right now.....an infinite amount of times. And it has already been put together the way it is right now an infinite amount of times. So if you can grasp that, there is eternal life.

Niels Andrews · Post by **Niels Andrews** » 27 Mar 2013 1:52 pm

Didn't someone say you cannot create or destroy matter?

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 27 Mar 2013 1:56 pm

A nuclear bomb destroys matter, that's what gives it it's power.

Fred Glave · Post by **Fred Glave** » 27 Mar 2013 2:14 pm

Matter cannot be destroyed or created. Einstein's theory that matter cannot be destroyed...only converted into energy and vice verse is still the dominant theory out there.

Steve Atwood · Post by **Steve Atwood** » 27 Mar 2013 5:39 pm

Gene, I'm only 65, but I've always thought about these things, and I have three points that no one's brought up:

1. If there is justice, there has to be an afterlife, because some people who choose evil die rich and happy, and some people who choose good die in pain and disgrace. If there's no afterlife, then justice doesn't matter. But justice does matter - when it happens most people are happy to see it - therefore justice does exist, and so there is an afterlife.

To put it another way, if God exists and He's just, there has to be a Hell, because there are people who knowingly choose the path that goes there. It's easy to see how to get on that path, but if we want to get on the path to Heaven, how do we find it and know that were on it? For Christians, Jesus is that path - we give our lives to Him and He makes a way for us.

2. If God is all-powerful, why would He create a universe that didn't have everything in it, including good and evil, joy and suffering, Heaven and Hell? Suffering brings out higher qualities in people which wouldn't exist if everyone was in a perpetual state of bliss. He allowed for suffering, but since He's just, He came into the world and experienced the torture of crucifixion Himself.

3. If miracles, healings, and exorcisms happen (and they do on the mission field - where missionaries bring Jesus into direct confrontation with pagan gods and spiritual extremes clash), it's not hard to believe that there's something going on beyond what we're used to in the developed world where everything spiritual is stifled by materialism.

Ken Lang · Post by **Ken Lang** » 27 Mar 2013 6:28 pm

God said, "I created you to be with me, and to live forever, through eternity. The first thing you did was the only thing I said you couldn't do. You ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."

"In spite of that, I created another way for you to spend all eternity with me. Just believe in me. You don't have to do anything. Just believe."

"I give you that choice. If you chose to disbelieve, I do not want you."

"You have a choice, to live forever in my presence, or forever out of it. Do what you have to, to find me. If you chose me, I WILL find you. You have no one or no thing to blame your refusal to accept me. It is your choice."

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 27 Mar 2013 8:38 pm

This is in line with my feelings against assigning emotions, judgments, and other human characteristics to God:

"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty."
(Albert Einstein, Obituary in New York Times, 19 April 1955)

...and other, addressing morality:

"A man's ethical behaviour should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
(Albert Einstein, "Religion and Science", New York Times Magazine, 9 November 1930)

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 27 Mar 2013 8:49 pm

"So from a statistical standpoint it's just a matter of time before everything is put back together again exactly the way it is right now.....an infinite amount of times. "

That was the Buddha's theory as well and what he taught. It is actually interesting to see how many of the Buddha's ideas are upheld by quantum mechanics.

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 27 Mar 2013 8:50 pm

Bill McCloskey wrote:
That was the Buddha's theory as well and what he taught. It is actually interesting to see how many of the Buddha's ideas are upheld by quantum mechanics.

Buddhism was the closest Einstein got to believing in a particular "religion."

Niels Andrews · Post by **Niels Andrews** » 27 Mar 2013 8:54 pm

If you look at the writings of Lao Tzu, Buddha, Jesus Christ, Confucius, Vishnu, Ru mi, on and on there is but slight variation in the message. All is as it should be.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 27 Mar 2013 8:56 pm

I suppose that explains deja vu....

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 28 Mar 2013 6:15 am

I shudder to enter this conversation because I don't think it's a good idea to discuss religion on this forum, no matter how civil the conversation is, and I agree that this has been very civil. But b0b seems to think it's OK, so I simply want to say that this statement about statistical physics seems fundamentally flawed to me:

... He said that the universe is eternal and infinite in time and space both frontward and back and in all directions. However there is a finite amount of matter and compounds in the universe. So from a statistical standpoint it's just a matter of time before everything is put back together again exactly the way it is right now.....an infinite amount of times. And it has already been put together the way it is right now an infinite amount of times.

IMO, the notion of 'the universe is infinite' is not justifiable by anything we can measure. It might be true, it might not, but we can't know because if it's true, it would take an infinite amount of time to send a signal out to probe the end of the universe and come back. Same with the amount of matter in the universe - we don't know if the amount is finite or infinite, please tell me how one is to measure that.

I also somewhat find it hard to believe that a physicist really said this, because if you do the math, I just don't think the notion that matter will eventually recombine in every possible form is true. It just doesn't work from a combinatorial point of view. These types of statistical calculations are discussed in many elementary courses/books on statistical physics - I used Charles Kittel's "Statistical Physics" back when I was studying physics. For example, consider a single one-liter bottle of gas and consider the probability that all the gas molecules start in one half of the bottle, are allowed to diffuse into the whole bottle, and then gravitate back to the right-half of the bottle. If you do a very basic statistical calculation, it is so unlikely that one would never expect see it in what is expected as 'the life of the universe as we have been able to compute it'. The more atoms/molecules, the less likely it is that any particular state would be revisited.

I just don't think we know exactly what's going to happen to us when we die. Even if we accept religious teachings, they provide a sketch at best. The good part is that we know that every single life form on the earth physically perishes at some point, so we should have some assurance - faith - that we're not alone, and this is an absolute common denominator of all life, at least as we know it.

Ron Page · Post by **Ron Page** » 28 Mar 2013 8:34 am

Niels Andrews wrote:Didn't someone say you cannot create or destroy matter?

Erv Niehaus wrote:A nuclear bomb destroys matter, that's what gives it it's power.

Not to go astray here, but Erv is correct. The law of conservation of matter was later amended to become the law of conservation of matter and energy. There is a finite supply of matter and energy in the universe. You burn a log in the fireplace and it's mostly converted to heat energy with a fraction of the original mass left as ashes.

I don't see a downside to being wrong if I've lived my life as a Christian. I don't do it out of fear. I do it because my family and I believe its the best way to live.

Niels Andrews · Post by **Niels Andrews** » 28 Mar 2013 8:39 am

Dave, don't worry the concept of infinity is not resolvable by the human mind. After all when you get to the end there has to be something beyond that even if it is nothing. Which brings to mind that there could never be a beginning which means there can't be an ending and if you think about all this long enough, you will go out and buy another Pedal Steel Guitar!

Frank Estes · Post by **Frank Estes** » 28 Mar 2013 4:49 pm

The bottom line is that one has to decide for themselves if the Bible is true. One way to determine this is to investigate if the prophecies in it have come to pass. Just consider the prophecies regarding Israel and Jesus, to name a few. If one accepts it as true, then that makes the Bible the guide and authority for living for God—for coming to Him on His terms. It is not my monopoly, but His. John 14:6

Many people conclude that God, the Bible, and Christianity are invalid because of the imperfect people trying to serve him. Imperfect people know that they need a savior—they cannot live it without God’s help and they need their transgressions covered by the Blood. 1 John 1:9

Regarding the imperfect people and even the frauds: the good news is that you will not be judged based on the conduct of others, but based on your own record and what you did with the knowledge you were given. For unbelievers, you have The Great White Throne Judgment to look forward to: Rev. 20:11-15. The saved will not be there.

It is amusing to listen to others, who do not know God, think they know what His character or nature is or should be. What is their authority? Their mind. Sorry, but that is not good enough for the rest of us. The implication by such unbelievers is that if God exists and does not meet their criteria of what they think God should be, then they would not be interested in serving Him anyway. It is sort of like that silly song about not wanting to go to heaven if they do not serve Jack Daniels there.

How do I know that God is real? Experience—answered prayers and feeling His Presence.

My advice is to search for yourself and do not take the advice of the cynics--follow the advice of a fool and you can expect a fool’s reward. Ps 14:1.

Cal Sharp · Post by **Cal Sharp** » 28 Mar 2013 5:44 pm

It's odd that we're all in this together, with our priests, our rabbis, our loved ones, etc. Yet we die absolutely alone. Oh well, life is merely a terminal STD.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 28 Mar 2013 6:21 pm

"The bottom line is that one has to decide for themselves if the Bible is true. One way to determine this is to investigate if the prophecies in it have come to pass. "

There are other ways, more scholarly, less likely to misinterpretation methods that include comparing the known versions of the bible throughout time. The Bible didn't just spring up as the bible. It was a collection made a thousand years after the actual events. Some documents made it in, others didn't, and there are many variations on the versions that are in.

One fascinating book on this subject is Misquoting Jesus by biblical scholar Bart Ehrman, an evangelical christian himself for most of his life, became an agnostic after doing the research on the subject, realizing the bible as we know it today was widely re-written, changed, and added to as scribes added bits here and there to suit the times or their own philosophies.

As he points out in the book, the "Those without sin" story in the new testament was not part of the original document and was added sometime in the 13th century.

bob Ousby · Post by **bob Ousby** » 29 Mar 2013 5:49 am

Quite a lively yet civil discussion. As I pondered the theme, and as I'm in my "youthful 60"s", I'd like to share my response.

I am mindful of 3 things:
1-several years ago a Christian author penned a book by the title "Finishing Well". I think of the theme of that book quite often as I live out my life's purpose.
2-years before the book came out, there's a song by Jim Sunderwirth (circa 1976) that caught my attention: "Only One Life". The recurring phrase is "Only one life, so soon it will pass, only what's done for Christ will last..."
3-the later season of my life is a combination of 1 & 2. Happy Easter!