The Rise of the 8 string and Fall of the 10 string PSG!

[Dallas Cheked]

I use ALL 10 strings all the time. Could never go to an 8 string. The only people I hear talk about the first 2 strings negatively are the one's that don't understand their purpose or have a sloppy right hand and hit them by accident. Practice will take care of both of those problems.

How about we stop at 8 and let the music flow?

The industry shouldn't go backwards and limit all the others that do understand and are good enough with their right hand to make good use of those strings.

Of course anyone can choose to play what they want and develop their style around it.

Much of the sound that lured me into wanting to play pedal steel comes from those first two "chromatic" strings!

[Edward Meisse]

Why doesn't the C6 tuning have a top two re-entrant strings ?

In the Buddy Emmons version, it has one. And I find it very useful. It replaces the high G. And a knee lever is added to raise the C to C# in order to get 5 note on top when you need it.

But I have found this thread very interesting. Although, I play a 10 string S10 C6, I rarely use string number 9. And almost never string number 10. I could easily get along without them. And maybe this belongs in another topic. But my view is that the decline of the steel guitar has occurred for 2 reasons. First because the E9 country sound has pigeonholed it. And second because of its' complexity and lack of linear comprehensibility (sorry for that word...). I have for a long time been a big fan of b0b's 8 string universal copedent for that reason. I think the future of the instrument will be greater simplicity and versatility if it is going to ever become a commonly played instrument again. Evolution doesn't have to mean greater complexity. What it means is better effectiveness. And in music, attracting participants (both performers and audience) is what defines effectiveness.

[Tony Prior]

way back we had a really bad company softball team..when we played with 10 players we always lost, too many errors..a couple of times the whole team never showed up and we played with 8 , we won those 2 games !

[Tony Prior]

I don't challenge Dale for his opinion, he is entitled, I am scratching my head wondering why so many of us are trying to defend the 10 string E9th tuning...the industry standard for over 50 years, the Industry standard for manufacturers for over 50 years...the 8 string tuning with TWO added chromatic strings..for over 50 years...

I would rather ask Dale what it is he is doing to have to mute the two top strings while he is playing around with the lower 8....Something is amiss...Maybe a simple conversation or a free lesson is in the cards here....

Dale, bring your Steel over to my house, in less than an hour you will NOT want an 8 string...no charge...

[b0b]

U-12 players remove the 9th string from the E9th and get along fine without it. When they play E9th style, they could just as well be playing a 9-string guitar.

The C6th tuning with a D as the first string has the chromatic capabilities of E9th, but it doesn't have a middle 9th (a D note between the 6th and 7th strings E and C). When playing in the E9th range, a C6th (or D6th ) player only uses the top 8 strings.

I'm not saying that all 10 strings of E9th aren't useful - they are! I played a 12-string extended E9th for over 30 years. I'm just pointing out that a lot of good steel tracks have been made with fewer than 10 strings.

[Dale Kath]

Thanks Tony for the offer of a personal lesson. That has motivated me to try and find an instructor in the Detroit metro area (which are harder to find than a frog in India) I have been using the DVD instruction for E9 tuning, which makes me hesitate to try from scratch with another copedent. But I am still going to try Sneaky Pete's. Someone needs to make a documentary on him as he was so influential, and to think he developed Alzheimer's disease. Incredible. I know there are no laws as to how you tune your PSG, heck, we open tune our six string guitars all the time. In fact, I am going to retune my steel to find a good natural feel. Also, my brain is obviously hard wired to the E A D G B E tuning from playing guitar for nearly 40 years. So far my calls to the local music store have not turned up a PSG instructor. If anyone knows of one near Clarkston, Michigan, I would appreciate a heads up! Thanks bOb for more timely information, always appreciated! P.S. Have just discovered Vern Gosdin rip

[Tony Prior]

Dale , it may be worth going to a Steel show where there is a seminar, but even better, take a short trip, go visit one of the PRO's in Nashville, Doug Jernigan , Mike Sweeney etc...learn during the day, have fun listening to the music at night...I would recommend private lessons before a seminar...I'm not sure where Joe Wright lives now but he would also be excellent resource. Don't give up and don't get rid of those two strings ! Learn how to drive a 6 speed...

[Bill Moore]

Dale, I'm pretty sure that John Lang lives near your area. He is a forum member and I think he gives lessons. By the way, it seems like you may be looking for a shortcut, trying to find a tuning that will make it easier. It will never work, there is no shortcut. Get some lessons, apply yourself to learning and have patience, it's not impossible. I would recommend that you go with the top 8 strings of the E9th, maybe lower the 8th string to get the D, like some do on a universal tuning. And also lower the 6th string to F#. This will keep you busy for a while. Good luck with it.

BM

[Joshua Gibson]

I felt the need to chime in on this, I am probably one of the newest PSG players on here...and even I think that the notion of EVERY steel available being an 8 string is absolutely redundant, I'm not the best or really even THAT versed on the chromatic strings but to Me that's part of the never-ending intrigue of pedal steel , That being said I can also appreciate the uses of an 8 string...I still love My fender 400 despite the fact that I dominantly gig with D-10's, for lack of a better way to say it I believe the original poster should have STARTED on an 8-string, then perhaps He might have better understood the principle
OF strings 1 & 2, I sincerely apologize to any of the other posters if I have said anything out of line...but being as much of a rookie as I AM, I just felt the need to speak on this subject .

[Tony Prior]

One time I owned a D12 MSA..I removed 2 strings from each neck..it became a D10.


Although I feel it is always appropriate to ask questions and express concerns, there is a multitude of players responding here with LOTS of experience,they are all saying the same thing...and they would be correct.

So what if Sneaky Pete played on an 8 string..we don't know why ...he was a fine player and made his mark in history but that doesn't mean it's the right thing for the next guy. A 10 string can do everything an 8 string can do...not vice versa... This isn't about Sneaky Pete...but we can make it about Buddy or Loyd...

You can't make an 8 string grow into a 10 string but you can remove 2 strings from a 10 string and make it an 8 string.

The learning programs today are pretty much aimed at 10 string steels..all the same tuning...

A 10 string E9 Chromatic Steel is an 8 string tuning...

I wanna learn to drive, I better learn on a 4 cylinder..

There is a fundamental reason the standard tuning is 10 strings and the standard configurations are 3+4 or 3+5 ... The tuning and the configurations followed the path that was set by the pioneers... We don't have to sit and ponder what strings to pull, what tuning to use, what ped or lever changes give is the good stuff...someone already did it ! All we have to do is put the time in and learn to play.

My take is if you acquire an 8 string, you should know why...if it's because you can't figure out what the two top strings are for or how to use them..thats not a good reason...there are plenty of resources available to take any player to the next level...

thanks for watching

[b0b]

A 10 string can do everything an 8 string can do...not vice versa...

That is absolutely true!

[Bud Angelotti]

I once did a gig where I kept breaking my high Ab. I'd change it mid song, missing part of the song. It kept breaking. It was a burr on the tuner. What was I gonna do? Get out a magnifying glass and file in the middle of a set in a dark noisy bar? I put on three or four strings, they kept breaking. Ran out of strings. Whaddya do? You keep playing! Those notes where not where they were supposed to be cause-no Ab string. I had to really think and almost relearn the songs as we went on. Nobody threw rotten tomatoes. 6 strings, 8 strings, 12 strings, whatever floats your boat.

[Edward Meisse]

Is Jeff Newman's site still up? He had some great instructional DVDs for both E9 and C6. I found them very easy to understand. Isn't there still a bunch of written instruction for sale on the forum?

[Edward Meisse]

One time I owned a D12 MSA..I removed 2 strings from each neck..it became a D10.


Although I feel it is always appropriate to ask questions and express concerns, there is a multitude of players responding here with LOTS of experience,they are all saying the same thing...and they would be correct.

So what if Sneaky Pete played on an 8 string..we don't know why ...he was a fine player and made his mark in history but that doesn't mean it's the right thing for the next guy. A 10 string can do everything an 8 string can do...not vice versa... This isn't about Sneaky Pete...but we can make it about Buddy or Loyd...

You can't make an 8 string grow into a 10 string but you can remove 2 strings from a 10 string and make it an 8 string.

The learning programs today are pretty much aimed at 10 string steels..all the same tuning...

A 10 string E9 Chromatic Steel is an 8 string tuning...

I wanna learn to drive, I better learn on a 4 cylinder..

There is a fundamental reason the standard tuning is 10 strings and the standard configurations are 3+4 or 3+5 ... The tuning and the configurations followed the path that was set by the pioneers... We don't have to sit and ponder what strings to pull, what tuning to use, what ped or lever changes give is the good stuff...someone already did it ! All we have to do is put the time in and learn to play.

My take is if you acquire an 8 string, you should know why...if it's because you can't figure out what the two top strings are for or how to use them..thats not a good reason...there are plenty of resources available to take any player to the next level...

thanks for watching

Impressive argument. I think you may have convinced me. And that isn't easily done.

[Fred Glave]

Lots of great advice and info in this thread. The 10 string E9 copedent has been around for a very long time, making a ton of instructional material available. I believe that it's very common for new players to have trouble with the two top strings as well as the 7th and 9th strings. The top two came fast for me, but even a year ago I was still having some trouble with 7 and 9. My problem wasn't understanding the musical application of the strings but stumbling into them an hitting a lot of clams. For me it required dedicated time doing agility exercises with those strings. If you think about it, it's natural for new players to gravitate to the easy part of the neck and strings to get something that sounds good fast. Only by getting quality information and instruction and then spending the time will the difficulties be overcome.

[Dale Kath]

Thanks for the lead on John Lang, Bill M.
I have emailed him and waiting for a reply.

This forum is a godsend for new players!
Dale

[Eugene Cole]

Since I have switched from a 10 string to an 8 string... I have come to the logical conclusion--- take off those 2 top strings to enjoy a frustration free playing session. You do not have to twist your brain around this ill conceived tuning method, where the strings do not raise intone in a linear manner. Truthfully, how many of you 10 stringers spend the majority of your time playing taking extra effort muting those top 2 strings? I also say this in the hopes that current PSG makers will offer more 8 string PSGs. Not everyone wants an old Fender 400! 8,10, 12....14 strings? How about we stop at 8 and let the music flow?

Nothing like quoting the first post to keep oneself on-topic.

Everyone has an opinion. The trick is to also have a good argument: for most of us that means an argument which is good for ourselves. But "good" certainly includes arguments which possess an internal logical cosistency.

I for whatever reason have a penchant for going to more strings. More is not better in my thinking; it merely provides me more options. At this point you have gotten lots of ideas about the pros and cons of the extra strings.

What works for you: works for you. I know a guy that calls himself "one string willie" that plays the diddly bow with great skill and finesse. He makes that 1 string say what he wants it to say. I do not possess his afinity for playing 1 string instruments.

Regardless of how many strings a person has an afinity for; your "let the music flow" is good advice.

I love the range that a 14-string PSG affords me. Those low notes can create a groove that the higher notes will not. 3 octave chords give a rich full sound which I could never coerce out of an 8 or 10 string neck. So that is my take on the pros of my U14; it lets me make the sounds that I want to make. If going to an 8 string is what works for you at this point in time then that is where you are and what you want. None of us can or should tell you that you are wrong. However many of us love to talk about why the alternatives are for us "better" (for us). And this Forum is the place where such dialogs take place in the realm of Steel playing. I try to stay quiet and pay attention because when I do that I learn. And on that note (pun intended) I shall return to my typical listening mode.

[David Ellison]

On this forum, it seems like half of the threads contain some reference to steel being a dying instrument. The other half contain posts discouraging anyone from doing anything even slightly different. Think there might be a connection there?

The idea of "standardization" on an instrument as bastardized as the pedal steel is ridiculous, in my opinion. Everything good that ever happened in the history of steel guitar playing came from players finding their own way and innovating. If someone today wants to sound exactly like 1960s/70s nashville pedal steel, they'll find their way there. But discouraging people (including and especially beginning players) from experimenting is absolutely wrong, IMO.

The idea of using a more "limited palate" is appealing to me. I would bet that any player, if given some time to practice on an 8 string steel, could sound just as good as they do on a 10-string. And I would bet that no one, not even another steel player, would notice the difference... especially in a band context.

The time to experiment is when you're still new to the game and haven't become set in your ways.

[Donny Hinson]

Because the 8-string pedal steel was so short lived in most circles, I think that it never evolved as much as it could have. I have a Fender 400 that I play once in awhile, and it really makes you think about where to find stuff. Although the bulk of everything out there is 10 & 12 string oriented, there's nothing wrong with wanting to keep things simple.

[Peggy Green]

There are many paths they all lead to the same place. The path to the E9th Chromatic tuning twines through the lives of Emmons and Day to name a few. The songs where each new pedal or additional string were used for the first time were among the hits of their time. They were also new "additions" in the evolution of the pedal steel guitar.

The knowledge gained is in the tuning. The compromises you make in working in that tuning aren't as apparent to a novice and just add mystery to it all.

Seeing how Wabash Cannonball lays out on a six string steel may be a better place to start as a beginner.

As with everything if those strings are awkward, learn something that uses them. Your weakness then becomes your strength.

And if you want to play Weldon Myrick hot licks, you need both of those strings.

[Dale Kath]

This may anger even more players, but asking...are you really using that 10th string (or 8th string or the lower B note? Of all the thousands of licks and lead psg solos in songs that I have heard, it sure sounds like the first 5 strings are all that are utilized. A 5 string pedal string guitar? Does this mean all professional PSG players could duplicate every country solo or lick with just the top five? I would put money that more than a few would admit...YES? All those who have honestly, honestly touched that 10th B note string, in the last month, raise your hand.

[Peggy Green]

Dale, that doesn't compute, sorry. This isn't worth answering at this point. Over and out

[b0b]

All those who have honestly, honestly touched that 10th B note string, in the last month, raise your hand.

You're kidding, right? I probably use the 10th string more than strings 1, 2 and 3 combined. It's essential. I can't imagine trying to play E9th without it.

[Herb Steiner]

No, b0b. I don't think he was kidding.