The Steel Guitar Forum

To me Teachers are like doctors . I believe in teachers and I wish that I had had the opertunity to get some help when I was coming up instead of 4 nights a week in a bar room. It just took me ten times as long to learn what little I know. Any one who has a diffrent way of playing is a teacher to me because I pay attention to how everyone plays and get some great ideas from it. Buck Grantham

Adair, Thank you for posting this. I agree, he was real special to so many. What a beautiful piece of music. I'm so glad I got to spend a precious few hours with him looking over our group of aspiring pickers. He was something...

Damn, Buck -- you got me going again. I don't (necessarily) believe doctors either!

Let's put it this way, and maybe we can all agree. No one, not a teacher, not a doctor, not your spouse, not your mother, not a guidance counselor, not your psychiatrist, not your preacher -- no one -- NECESSARILY knows better than you what is right for you. Sometimes, but not always!

Listen to them, be respectful, consider that they may be right and/or that they may know more than you do, but then DECIDE FOR YOURSELF. If you are truly comfortable (which is what Herb was talking about!) mentally and physically with your sound and your technique, and if you are genuinely having fun -- bone-deep, real fun -- then probably you are on the right track no matter what your teacher says.

Hero worship, or unquestioning acceptance of what ANYBODY says (including me!!!!!!!), is not the way to become a true artist. Respect is fine, and is necessary and appropriate. But sometimes even the people we respect can be wrong. If you hero-worship some famous pedal steel guitarist, then you have unconsciously made it impossible for you to surpass that person artistically. The greats are great, no argument. But you too can be great! And one of the first steps in that lifelong pursuit is to question everything and everybody.

Here's a medical example, since this topic came up earlier in this thread: When my surgeon told me that I had kidney cancer and needed major surgery, I said, "Fine, let's do it." But when he prescribed an antibiotic before the surgery that listed as its #1 warning that it can cause permanent hearing loss, I said no way. I called his office, said that I was a professional musician and that hearing loss was not an acceptable risk. So they found me a different antibiotic right away. Then the surgery was done, it went fine, and now I'm healthy and I can still hear!

And yes, I'm afraid I would have been equally careful about the advice of the great Mr. Newman...

One more example. Maybe 15 years ago I injured my finger in the garden -- damaged a tendon -- and the pain was terrible. I went to see the so-called "great doctor" who said I would have to stop playing music for six months or a year. I went out to the car and burst into tears. No guitar or steel for a year? Then my head cleared, I said f*** him, and I went back home and started doing guitar exercises. It hurt every day for months and months, but I never stopped playing. And my finger healed completely, and it hasn't hurt at all ever since. I was right, and the great doctor was wrong...

Buck Grantham wrote:To me Teachers are like doctors . I believe in teachers and I wish that I had had the opertunity to get some help when I was coming up instead of 4 nights a week in a bar room. It just took me ten times as long to learn what little I know. Any one who has a diffrent way of playing is a teacher to me because I pay attention to how everyone plays and get some great ideas from it. Buck Grantham

Hey Buck, There is soooo much wisdom in your fine words. There are many here that can relate to exactly what you mean, brother.

well , there is another side to teaching madness. I also teach and have been teaching guitar since way back. Sometimes in the very early stages it is very necessary to get the student, any student , to start playing some music even bad music. Sometimes it is as important as proper technique.

So what do we do ? Spend the first 2 hour lesson with a new student on right hand technique or do we find a way to calibrate what they understand to executing some music because that is the point of the Instrument and the lesson, to play some music. A student who takes a few lessons and still cannot execute any music will loose interest very fast.

Now I also agree that a student must be savvy enough to know what kind of teacher they have in front of them or it will be a bad road trip. A narrow or closed minded teacher who is not paying attention or has not recognized the abilities of the student will be a bad experience, the lesson is supposed to be about the student, not the teacher.

Ok, my goal as a teacher is to find a way to get said student playing some music early, figure out what they can do or understands , then apply it to the guitar or the Steel. Every student is different and every lesson approach is different but the goal is the same. If the first few lessons are about music , theory and general discussion with some technique worked in that's not a bad thing because this is just the beginning and is is extremely important for any student of any musical instrument to play "some music" and understand why they are playing it early in the game.

Above, I never once thought thought Barry was dissing Jeff but I found it odd that one or two folks dissed Barry because they thought he was dissing Jeff. Reminds me of other recent threads.

Barry, I got it , " Beware of teachers" sorry to hear of your illness, wishing you the best.

tp

PS and yes, my right arm is very close to the body, never actually thought about it and really can't say how or why I ended up like this, I think it's more related to my sitting position and body alignment to the fretboard( 12th, 15th fret) I do discuss this sitting position with students. Maybe it was Jeff where I got this from but I can't be sure.

Finding the right teacher can save a lot of time and aggravation learning this incredibly complex instrument.
I started a few years ago with nothing but Bruce Boutons DVD. After a few days of rewinding and soaking up every chapter, I made huge progress. Then I was left to playing along with the radio, copying everything I could figure out by ear (now its SteelRadio.com). Mickey Adams on YouTube is also a great resource to me. He's a great player AND a great teacher.
Recently Ive began studying with Denny Mathis, who has helped me reach that next level of proficiency.
Regarding teachers and style, they vary widely. Some of the nuances of playing I learned from Bruce, such as rolling the bar slightly for subtle vibrato, are contrasted by Dennys vibrato style, which is a bit more slide oriented. They both are valid, but different, techniques of achieving different sounds. Im glad Ive been taught both techniques. Neither is "wrong".
One thing that did improve my right hand technique was sitting more to the right (which in turn brought the elbow closer to my side, so the pendulum of arm movement is more relaxed from the shoulder as the hand moves across the strings.

Johan Jansen wrote:To me there is no right or wrong in techniques as long as it doesn't hurt or destroys your hands (think about Carpal Tunnel Syndrome)...

I have some problems with left hand technique, which lead to wrist fatigue. This is a problem in my personal technique that a teacher may be able to resolve. Its easier for a teacher to watch me play and point out posture and position corrections that may lead to better proficiency and comfort. So... Be Aware But Not Wary!

Clete

I wrote a reply to this thread but, I do as I always do. Type it, proof it then delete it.

I feel better, hope you all do too...joe

I agree with you Joe !! Whew now I feel sooo much better!!

Shane

joe wright wrote:I wrote a reply to this thread but, I do as I always do. Type it, proof it then delete it.

I feel better, hope you all do too...joe

Thanx Joe, I just learned a great thing from your post. Something I suspected for a long time. Might be the best piece of advice I've seen in months, huh? Thanx. Think I'll go crawl back in my cubby-hole with my old shobud and practice.

Joe, certainly you must realize that as long as you are wearing a red thumb pick, no one is going to take you seriously.

Excuse my use of cliche's in the paragraph above. I usually avoid them like the plague.

Herb Herb Herb... I blew coffee outta my nose reading this. You are such a treasure to the forum... Hey, you need to come over to the house... got something to show ya,

Steve

Seems to me, if you don't know how to play, and you found a teacher who can...guess what? You're going to learn what he/she teaches you, if you want to end up getting anywhere with the instrument. I think good teachers are willing to work with students who have "idiosynchrocies" in their approach.

It's worth bearing in mind that teachers, like other authoritative figures, are human beings with human failings and human triumphs.
Knowing that there can be mistaken perceptions, some ego involved in the mentoring process, (as well as truly altruistic motivations), puts some weight on the student to keep an open mind about advice. That being said, usually someone who plays with taste, tone, and authority should know what he's talking about.
Of course some people are better players than teachers...

Just a couple of examples from my own experience:

Many years ago I went to the most highly-respected Neurologist in our area with various odd neurological difficulties. After lengthy and expensive testing, he told me I most definitely had Muscular Dystrophy, and his prognosis was not pretty.
After some reflection I decided I didn't like him, or the diagnosis. Followups with other docs yielded completely different diagnoses.

A couple of years back, after terrible pain and insurance holdups, an MRI showed I had severe disc herniation at C7. Again, consultation with the most respected area surgeon resulted in him actually calling me a moron for questioning his diagnosis of a complicated, expensive, and dangerous surgery. I'm fine today after relatively simple spinal stretching therapy.

When I was first playing, the local "Doctor of Steel" who was a very fine player, responded to my questions on blocking by very patiently explaining, "It's simple, you pick a note, then you cut it off with the palm of your hand", while picking and then tilting his hand to the right to palm block the note.
I practiced like a fiend trying to integrate his two-step demonstration into my playing, with no good result.
Careful observation of his own playing as well as that of luminaries like Buddy and Lloyd, revealed that he had completely mis-diagnosed even his own playing- the classic hand at rest on the strings was simply blocking the notes when it returned to pick the next note.
After careful observation of many players, I'm in agreement with Jeff Newman's right hand approach and teaching style. It may not work for every last player, but it's definitely a great place to start sorting it out for yourself.

Ok.... let's stop picking on the docs

I have had some very informative and helpful interactions with other Doctors (and teachers)- my point is that even with vast experience, training, and education, the "fit" between doctor, or teacher, and student is personal and requires self-monitoring and some open minded review.

As a fledgling guitar player, I went to our local music store to ask if they could teach me fingerpicking in the style of Gary Davis, Robert Johnson, etc. The teacher played some nice fingerpicked stuff, but when it came to our first lesson, he wanted me to learn to read and play the standard notation for "Little Brown Jug" on just the first string. He insisted that was the way everyone needed to learn. Although the slow progression through reading and application would have laid a good foundation for various styles eventually, I knew the masters I was admiring didn't learn that way... I found another teacher who was a monster fingerpicker, understood my desire and had me playing exactly what I wanted in a very short time.

I know these days, in my own teaching, my personal excitement about the integration of music theory with playing really inspires some students, and less so with others. Some people just want to learn licks and songs, and I may not be the best teacher for them.

Most of the classic instructional material relied on teaching songs, with it left up to the student to figure out how to transpose licks and ideas to different keys and situations. I was thrilled to find Winnie Winston's book when it first came out, where along with songs the theory and "workings" of the E9 tuning were more deeply explored.
It's interesting that lately there have been complaints because Winnie wasn't using the right songs to interest some potential students.
All kinds of people, all kinds of learning.

this is actually one of the major things that I am dealing with as I am learning. I have both a good teacher as well as Jeff's "Right Hand Alpha" and find myself at times a bit frustrated. I know that learning with bad habits makes it more difficult in the long run, but copying Jeff's technique in it's entirety when one is still learning to hold the bar, keeping the volume pedal from blasting the sound, and figuring out what strings to pluck without looking at the right hand (not to mention pedal and knee levers) can lead to an hour not be able to make anything that sounds like music...It is almost as if just learning to keep the elbow in, anchor the hand so you can learn where the strings are, and not worrying about blocking at least lets the rank beginner start to make music. Jeff seems to talk about his technique in that video more for people who already know a bit more of the basics. What do others think?

Steven Dingle -- don't worry about your damn elbow! This is EXACTLY what made me start this thread months ago -- the idea that beginners would be worried about their elbow position and other relatively minor components of psg technique, and forgetting to have fun playing music!

And don't worry too much about blocking either unless you hear a string still ringing that bothers you, then mute it with whatever you've got. And the only important thing about your right elbow is that your right arm should be comfortable and not held out way far from the body in an unnaturally tense position. Teachers should be helping their students to relax, not burying them under long lists of new things to worry about. Sure it takes 30 years to get good at psg, but at least try to relax and have fun while you are learning!

right hand alpha cleared up a bunch of things for me that i may have never gotten to by myself. took some effort and then suddenly it was habit. thumbs up btw keepin your elbow in keeps your picks contacting the string more on the side, the sweet spot

I've found, like with everything else in my musical experiences, right hand alpha is no different. I listened, learned, and then "borrowed" what I could use from it, to make it my own. Do I emulate Jeff ? maybe a little, but not entirely, I've got my own thing, and it works for me.
Never hurts to take in ALL the info available, and then use what you can
Rick

Barry Hyman wrote:Steven Dingle -- don't worry about your damn elbow! This is EXACTLY what made me start this thread months ago -- the idea that beginners would be worried about their elbow position and other relatively minor components of psg technique, and forgetting to have fun playing music!

And don't worry too much about blocking either unless you hear a string still ringing that bothers you, then mute it with whatever you've got. And the only important thing about your right elbow is that your right arm should be comfortable and not held out way far from the body in an unnaturally tense position. Teachers should be helping their students to relax, not burying them under long lists of new things to worry about. Sure it takes 30 years to get good at psg, but at least try to relax and have fun while you are learning!

Barry, with all due respect, Nobody is forgetting to have fun--the fun is in the challenge of learning to play with proper technique, and when accomplishing that, THEN being able to acutually make music--good music.

Good technique = good music.

Steve, sounds like your teacher has you going right--stick to it and LISTEN to him. Stick to the Right Hand Alpha, too. Don't worry about making music right now--worry about making proper technique your own. After you "own" that technique, your music will come easy. There's a difference between compromising technique and trying to play "music", and nailing technique and really playing music. Practice bad habits?? You will spend much more time trying to correct bad technique. Patience has it's rewards.

A bit frustrating is ok. If pedal steel was easy, every one would do it.

If you compromise and "give in" and don't learn proper technique, it will tell on you every time you DO try to make music. You will sound as good as you technique will allow you to sound. Nail that technique.

Practise does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.

James, you are right...

Am I contradicting myself? Sort of. No disrespect intended to Jeff Newman of course, or to any other great teacher or player, or to anyone for that matter. Good technique is important (obviously, although exactly what that is might engender small bits of disagreement). Perfect practice is nice too. And frustration is definitely part of learning to play this spectacularly difficult instrument.

But what worries me is when a newcomer to psg gets frustrated to the point of giving up. Some sort of balance must be made between the frustration and hard work of learning, and the pleasures of playing the world's most exquisite instrument. I know for a fact that many music teachers are stuck in a strict, spare-the-rod-spoil-the-child sort of 18th century Germanic mold, because that is the way they were taught and the way their teachers were taught. It doesn't have to be that way. Pleasant, user-friendly, humanistic teaching methods are not incompatable with good technique and proper learning. Students should learn good technique from the beginning to avoid bad habits, yes. (And, from what I have heard, Jeff Newman taught that in a very kind and supportive way, which is great.) But at the same time, every effort should be made to smoothe out the learning pains for beginners, to minimize their worries and frustration, and to make them as relaxed and funloving as possible while still doing most things right most of the time. Sound reasonable?

Barry, I suppose there could be some "drill sergeant teacher" types out there--I have not run into any. I imagine without a friendly attitude to help a student over the rough spots they will run them selves out of buisness anyways. And a SERIOUS student will find someone else to teach them.

If a student is serious to begin with, he will survive just fine. There is learning when there is dicipline, and that dicipline does not mean harshness. It is a dicipline of "stick to it, you can do it". The "magic bullet" is nothing more than serious chair time---practise until you are sick of it, then practise some more. Widen your limits.

Some people are excited at first, but wash out when they see the REAL work it takes to learn pedal steel. Coddling them really won't make a difference. You either want it bad enough to put in the work or you don't.

You are correct sir, (J M )
this has got to be one of the most demanding instruments to tame, but well worth the effort.

Back to Jeff:
Using 4 picks, I find it almost impossible to copy him, so I improvise. When I use 3 picks, the system seems to go easier, but, as I said before, take what you need, and incorporate, developing you own style.
Rick

I tried not to get in on this but I can resist any longer. If you want to play steel just try this one simple step. Get some recordings of as many players as you care to listen to. LISTEN TO THE SOUNDS OF HIS OR HER PLAYING. Likely there will be a couple of players that you really sync in on. Could be anyone. If you choose one I bet he holds his right hand a certain way and he uses the bar a certain way and he squeezes those pedals a certain way. Every thing the player does will have an effect on your liking or disliking what he does.

All that being said I can tell you his right hand technique will be what you want to look at. Doug will not sound like Buddy. Joe will not sound like Lloyd. Jeff will not sound like weldon. They are ALL AS GOOD AS IT GETS BUT THERE ALL DIFFERENT. Pick one you are drawn to and if you want to sound similar in many ways study his right and left hand technique and try to copy it. The right hand positions are key to their sound. If you can't handle Joe's right hand technique you will not have the same sounds he gets. If you want the sounds of Jeff or Buddy and others who pick in a similar manner you should go that direction.

You must watch and listen to each to understand what's going on. IF YOU CANNOT HEAR THE DIFFEREANCE in their styles. Go your own way.

If you have the dicipline to practice anyones technique YOU CAN LEARN IT. There will be one you prefer and if you committ to it it will come.

Each style has its own qualities, pick the one you like and find a good source of teaching for it and HAVE FUN.

Whew I am finished. These are only my suggestions.

Thanks Fred