Tube Amplifiers

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 29 Jun 2009 9:34 pm

I find that a mediocre-sounding steel guitar can really suffer through a solid-state amp, yet an old Twin can make steels of varying quality all sound good. In my opinion, the amp is way underrated as a component of steel tone. Too much focus is on the steel itself, when a good-quality tube amp can do more sometimes for good tone than any other factor.

Bill Duncan · Post by **Bill Duncan** » 30 Jun 2009 2:45 am

Which amp is used most by the profesionals, tube or solid state?

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 30 Jun 2009 5:01 am

In the country genre, the solid state Peavey Nashville series seems to be the most popular for backline. But in alt country and other circles, the Fender Twin and Deluxe tube amps are more common.

Of course, the term "professional" is subjective. Many of the players at steel shows do not make their living solely from performance - certainly not from playing steel shows, anyway. And if you go to St. Louis or Dallas, you'll see a row of 112's.....the most popular, no-nonsense, go-to amp for steel these days. I don't like them, personally. I can't dial out that honk, which is probably due to the fact that I like more of a mid-range scoop in my playing. So the fact that they are the main amp for steel shows does not necessarily make them the choice amp for pros. In fact, I've seen a lot of road pros come through town, and none were using the 112. Many were using a Pod or a backline 1000. The crossover players (such as Ben Keith and Josh Grange) were using Fender tube amps.

Then you're talking about studio players, who seem to invariably have some sort of tube element to their setup.

An old Twin is best for me, and I consider myself a professional musician, making a good portion of my living playing steel and guitar. I do have a Session 400, which is sweet for a solid state amp but is not warm like the Twin. I think you see a lot of 112's at the club level because they are lightweight, and many steels players are aging and unable to lift a Twin anymore. I do believe you'd see a lot more Twins if they weren't so heavy.

Lastly, you have to take into consideration the heavy push Peavey has made into the steel world since the early 70s. No other manufacturer has taken on the task of providing the country genre with a dedicated line of amps. Of course they will be the prevalent brand. Peavey is what the dealers are pushing as well. As always, there is more at play than just sound when it comes to what the players are using.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 30 Jun 2009 5:11 am

Yes Chris L. and the fact that a Peavey can be had for $300-$500 will put a lot of solid state amps out in the hands of musicians. The Fender tube amps, to me sound superior, but they are expensive. But paying what I do for my favorite steel guitar, I don't think it to be logical to "cut corners" with the other half of the tone equation---the amp.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 30 Jun 2009 8:26 am

I think it's possible to make most any amp with reasonable clean headroom work for clean pedal steel guitar. But it may require some jimmying around to get what I need. For example, I prefer to use a lower-gain preamp tube in a typical Twin/Deluxe Reverb to keep it from overloading under the strain of the typically hot pedal steel signal.

Dan's right about reamplifying a Deluxe Reverb - I've done it and it sounds great to me if I set it right - I have to take the bone out of my head that wants me to hear from the amp directly - in most situations, it's effectively a silent "tone generator". But then I'm carrying two amp rigs - the Deluxe plus some big-ass solid-state rig to get the power. If I'm really going for that sound specifically and I have time and stage room to fool with it, OK. But most of the time I just want something simple that gets both a good guitar sound (via a modeler if necessary) and a good clean pedal steel sound (via Tubefex or something like that if necessary) into a clean SS amp.

If anyone is suggesting that the NV 112 and other Peavey steel amps aren't heavily used by professional steel players, I disagree. Add to those Webb and Evans, or some other solid-state pedal-steel-specific rig, and that's mostly what I see when I'm out and about in, let's say, Nashville or some other place where you can see a lot of steel players. I think those types of amps are the solid mainstream for pedal steel. Don't get me wrong - I love old Fender tube amps too, but I think these solid-state amps sound fine if they're used well.

On the "honk" of the NV 112 - I think, for me, it's significantly a function of the small box. The difference between it and, let's say, a NV 1000 is somewhat analogous to the difference between a Deluxe Reverb and a Twin Reverb. I sat down with all four and did a round-robin comparison, and the small box does have a different response - it's not as "open", to me, and that goes for the Deluxe as well as the NV 112. If I want that "bigger" sound, that's where the Tubefex comes in for me. The setting I use on the smaller amps scoops the midrange quite a bit: +40 Lo, -25 mid (centered at 750 Hz), +40 Hi. Then I can use the amp's semi-parametric mid control to find-adjust whatever midrange it needs - the frequency and magnitude of that varies depending on the guitar and the situation, and I usually don't need to use it much.

FWIW - in some applications, I find the bigger amps like the NV 1000 or a Twin Reverb are not "focused" enough. In that case, I sometimes find it useful to un-scoop the midrange some. The acoustical characteristics of the speaker(s) in the box can make a big difference, to me anyway. I wish there was some simple formula for how to deal with this stuff, but I don't know one. Complicating things further is the fact that the room, volume level, and various psychoacoustic effects can make a big difference.

OK, I know I'm rambling, but I consider comparisons between amps far from simple. There are a bunch of ways to get a good sound - to me the main critical issue is that I can always be sure that I can tweak things to get a good sound in any situation I'm in. I also think the interaction between the player, guitar, signal chain + effects, amp, and speaker/box are critical. For example, I have some amps that sound great with one guitar and terrible with another, regardless of what I seem to do. Go figure.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 30 Jun 2009 3:37 pm

remember when we all just had one amp and we tried to get the sounds we wanted from the amp we had?

now I have a dozen or more amps and I still feel deprived of a few classic tones...lollerz...Im sickn and not getting better anytime soon.

for those who think fenders are expensive...yes they are..the new ones. But the vintage fenders are still an incredible bargain and WAY underpriced despite having risen in the past couple years.

That you can buy a forty year old, vintage, american made, hand wired classic amp from the most famous and reputable amp maker in history for less than a new pcb sportin, made in china, DOA in ten years, modern amp is insane, and that fender will still be going 40 years from now and rising in value as it does unlike its chinese-made counterpart.

I guess i am a fender fanboy
I have a solid state evans that i really really like on pedal steel . I aint selling it ... difffernt flavor and a really cool one, kinda sweet and compressed in a weird pleasing way.

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 30 Jun 2009 6:18 pm

Ditto and Amen!!!!

Ben Jones wrote: for those who think fenders are expensive...yes they are..the new ones. But the vintage fenders are still an incredible bargain and WAY underpriced despite having risen in the past couple years.

That you can buy a forty year old, vintage, american made, hand wired classic amp from the most famous and reputable amp maker in history for less than a new pcb sportin, made in china, DOA in ten years, modern amp is insane, and that fender will still be going 40 years from now and rising in value as it does unlike its chinese-made counterpart.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 30 Jun 2009 8:35 pm

Double dittos and Amens!

Plus what James said - I've noticed this over and over again - a steel player will think nothing of spending a few grand on a guitar and maybe another several hundred for a setup - but complain about tube amp prices compared to solid-state.

It's a sore subject to some of us who live mainly in the tube amp world - we had this discussion Saturday at a well-know L.A.-Area tech's shop; him, me, a 70 year old Tele player who can bury most "hot" pickers", a "name" guitarist who owns dozens of amps, from Fenders to SS modeling amps to several Dumbles - and who also plays a bit of steel but is not a forum member - and another steel player (also not a forum member) - and it was discussed in rather strong terms how the steel community has become "Peavey brainwashed". Sure, there are Webbs and Walkers - but the bulk of the steel amps used are Peaveys. Yes, they've done a great marketing job. Yes, the amps are a heck of a lot cheaper than a hand-wired tube amp.

But when the subject of tone came up - NOT merely headroom, which a good amp tech can get plenty of out of just about any tube amp in the 80+ watt range (I use 40-watt tube amps and can play clean all night if I want to) the consensus was that with the notable exception of the Walkers and Webbs and some of the older Peaveys,it's no contest. When it comes to steel amps for most players, price wins over tone - because that's what they've been conditioned to prefer.

You can have gobs of headroom, plenty of volume - and lousy tone. But you'll certainly save some money.

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 30 Jun 2009 8:46 pm

Jim, I totally agree.....and also, the reason why many steel players cannot get a clean sound out of a tube amp is because most steel pickups are wound up the ying-yang for max push and midrange. The high-wattage, clean Peaveys are designed to withstand that hot signal, albeit at the expense of sweetness and warmness. Modern steel pickups are too hot, in my opinion. That's why I love the coil tap on my old Professional. It doesn't eat the clean headroom.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 30 Jun 2009 9:14 pm

for those who think fenders are expensive...yes they are..the new ones. But the vintage fenders are still an incredible bargain and WAY underpriced despite having risen in the past couple years.

Shhhh. I agree, especially on the high-power silverface amps, which people are practically giving away. There's no way anybody could make money building an amp like that for double the going price. But if we keep on pushing that concept, they'll go up even more.

But I don't agree on the "brainwashed" and "lousy tone" thing. I've sat toe-to-toe with some really fine steel players who get tone-to-die-for out of their solid-state Peavey rigs. I think there's a significant level of technique to really getting the sound out of any amp, including old Fenders, Peaveys, or anything else. It took me some time, years ago, to learn how to get a good guitar sound out of old Fender amps, and it's taking me a while now to figure out how to do the same on pedal steel using a clean, solid-state amp.

The other thing is that different people are going for a different sound - there is no universal consensus on what constitutes "good tone". I think there are different types of "good tone".

Bill Duncan · Post by **Bill Duncan** » 1 Jul 2009 2:59 am

Jim Sliff said;
[it was discussed in rather strong terms how the steel community has become "Peavey brainwashed". Sure, there are Webbs and Walkers - but the bulk of the steel amps used are Peaveys. Yes, they've done a great marketing job. Yes, the amps are a heck of a lot cheaper than a hand-wired tube amp.

But when the subject of tone came up - NOT merely headroom, which a good amp tech can get plenty of out of just about any tube amp in the 80+ watt range (I use 40-watt tube amps and can play clean all night if I want to) the consensus was that with the notable exception of the Walkers and Webbs and some of the older Peaveys,it's no contest. When it comes to steel amps for most players, price wins over tone - because that's what they've been conditioned to prefer.

I have a Vegas 400 by choice, and I don't consider myself brainwashed. I certainly am not rich, but I make a decent living, and I could buy most any amplifier I want. However, it just so happens that I want a Vegas 400 built by Peavey.

I believe people can "brainwash" themselves into being a "snob", and thinking that because they choose a particular product, that those who choose something else, either are no tallent, cheapskate, ignorant pickers with bad hearing, or are just "brainwashed"!

It probably never occured to hand wired, tube amp owners, that some folks just don't like the sound of those amps. They prefer the sound of clean, clear solid state amps.

I'll bet Peavey had no idea they were such marketing giants.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 1 Jul 2009 5:57 am

No offense meant to anyone.
I love my solid state evans.
I have heard great tones come from peaveys and have respect for them. I'd like to own have a nash112 and am sure some day i will.

whatever works for your sound I ...respect that.
And I certainly respect the tones great players have gotten.

Look at the SS steel king..even fender is not sure tubes are the end all be all

I love fender tube amps tho. I love the way they are built, the design, the history, the look and the sound. I like that I know it can worked on , repaired, tinkered with...and frankly...maybe IM the cheapskate because i LOVE that i can buy these amps for a fraction of the cost of their modern peers.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 1 Jul 2009 6:29 am

I

believe people can "brainwash" themselves into being a "snob", and thinking that because they choose a particular product, that those who choose something else, either are no tallent, cheapskate, ignorant pickers with bad hearing, or are just "brainwashed"!

It probably never occured to hand wired, tube amp owners, that some folks just don't like the sound of those amps. They prefer the sound of clean, clear solid state amps.

I'll bet Peavey had no idea they were such marketing giants.

Peavey knows exactly what they are doing, and more power to 'em! They've catered to the market...but it IS marketing.

The point is separating "marketing" from "tone". I'm no "snob" - I have some cheap guitars (Danos) and amps (Magnatones, Silvertones) that are by no means "boutique".

But again, this statement:

It probably never occured to hand wired, tube amp owners, that some folks just don't like the sound of those amps. They prefer the sound of clean, clear solid state amps.

Is pretty typical. The question can also be raised - does one "prefer" the tone if "x" band SS amp because they hear certain things that appeal to their personal frequency range/volume/waveform confort zone - or because they've repeatedly read that it's what they SHOULD prefer?

Dave - it was hard to word that one sentence - "can" is the operative phrase, meaning it's a variable, not an absolute.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 1 Jul 2009 6:38 am

Well, I love my '75 Fender Vibrosonic and my '71 Fender Twin. But there is are a couple of Peavey amps that are pretty darned sweet to my ears--the original chrome knob Session 400 and LTD 400. It all boils down to what works for YOU. I hear great tone out of different players, and I am always amazed at the rigs they play through. It boils down to Chevys vs. Fords. Most folks are like me--you just can't afford to buy one of everything, so you settle on what you like best of all, according to what you've heard to the moment. That's why the "for sale" forum is so busy. It's all good.

David Cook · Post by **David Cook** » 1 Jul 2009 8:05 am

Hi, I have both. A modded Nashville 400 and a blackface Twin. I love the twin but it cost to keep it up and running. $200.00 spent on it a year ago for repairs and it is now popping again to where I have to slap it to get it to stop. So frustrating! I'm not sure it is worth it.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 1 Jul 2009 8:14 am

Dave - it was hard to word that one sentence - "can" is the operative phrase, meaning it's a variable, not an absolute.

Yup, I agree. In fact, I'd argue that it's easy to have lousy tone - with any amp, solid-state or tube. Just don't focus on producing a good tone, and it probably won't be good. I think one needs to spend the time to grok how to get a good sound out of any rig. Whatever "good" is - that's the subjective part that we'll never all agree on, and that's OK by me.

Bill Duncan · Post by **Bill Duncan** » 1 Jul 2009 9:05 am

Quote:
But again, this statement:

It probably never occurred to hand wired, tube amp owners, that some folks just don't like the sound of those amps. They prefer the sound of clean, clear solid state amps.

Is pretty typical. The question can also be raised - does one "prefer" the tone if "x" band SS amp because they hear certain things that appeal to their personal frequency range/volume/waveform comfort zone - or because they've repeatedly read that it's what they SHOULD prefer?

I can only speak for myself, and I catch it the exact opposite from your assertions. Many of my peers try to get me to go for the tube sound. When I say peers I mean guitar pickers, not steel pickers. I'm the only steel picker I associate with, and I have tried to hear the good side of the tube sound but I still prefer solid state for it's crisp, clean sound.

I stated earlier that tube or solid state is a matter of taste, and there is no accounting for taste. The fact that I prefer another type of amp than someone else doesn't mean I am brainwashed. It just says that I have very good taste in amplifiers.

As a matter of fact I could turn your words around and say that you tube lovers are the ones who are brainwashed by the myths and folklore of the past. Maybe tube lovers have heard the same old cliches' about the wonder and mystique of tube amplifiers and are "brainwashed into believing it.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 1 Jul 2009 10:31 am

It's not so much brainwashing as history. Peavey came out with the high power SS steel amps in the early '70s. Although Fender had begun making the clean-to-the-top silver-face Twins, Duals and Vibrasonics around then, most tube amps in play were the older black-face Fenders, with breakup toward the top, or the British rock amps and their imitators, which had even earlier breakup. Steelers had decades of experience with having their chords mushed by staticky tube distortion, and having to deal with maintenance problems. And in those days good amp techs were hard to find, and weren't real knowledgeable about the varieties of tone. So when the crystal clean, care-free Peaveys came out, and at very reasonable prices, and with controls and voicing designed for steel, they were considered a Godsend, and most pros and amateurs were thrilled with them.

Around that time I was learning steel in Nashville. Can you believe all I could afford was a used black-face Super Reverb. It weighed a ton and had only 40 watts, only about 20 of which were clean. Even in the small dives I was playing in, it had nowhere near enough clean headroom for steel. I longed for one of those new SS Peaveys all the pros were getting, with clean headroom forever. But I couldn't afford a new one, and there weren't any used ones yet.

I dropped out of music for a couple of decades. But the momentum of those powerful clean Peavey steel amps seemed to have carried the steel community through the '80s and '90s. By then the clean-to-the-top hand-wired SF CBS Fenders were out of production. They were reviled by guitar players, and many used ones were black-faced by guitar players for early breakup. The real brainwashing was steelers mistakenly listening to all the guitar player bad-mouthing of the clean SF CBS Fenders. They mostly missed out on the glory of that clean Fender tube tone of the '70s Twin family amps that were fantastic for steel.

Now, largely because of the Forum, the well-kept secret of the '70s clean SF Fenders has been rediscovered by steelers. There were always some cognoscenti among top pros, such as Lloyd Green playing a new SF Twin with Charley Pride at Panther Hall, and also playing Fender tubes in the studio, where even BF Fenders can be kept in the clean range.

So Peavey (and others) really did the steel community a great favor by providing steelers with the clean, powerful amps they needed. In addition, they were care-free and reasonably priced. Once they started showing up on the used market, they were very inexpensive for the weekend warriors playing the clubs and not earning top dollars. Everybody just got used to seeing and hearing the top pros play the SS Peaveys, and got used to playing them themselves. That momentum has carried the steel community until now. It's history and custom and familiarity, as much or more than Peavey "brainwashing." I guarantee Peavey will make whatever we will buy.

Now there are a growing number of us cued into the secret of the clean SF Fenders. But the clear highs and solid bottom of the SS Peavies are familiar and still have their appeal for many. And out there in the small towns, far from good amp techs, they can be bought and traded used over and over, with no setup or maintenance. Buying an old used SF Fender tube amp is a project. You need to know something about the dates and models. The history and condition is a roll of the dice, and you need to pay for a good servicing to start off with, and continue to get it serviced and retubed. Even good amp techs don't necessarily know how to set one up for steel. They will often automatically "black-face" to give early distortion, without even telling you.

I've learned to deal with all that, and play SF Fenders exclusively. But I completely understand if other steelers don't want to deal with all that, and like the familiar Peavey SS tone. They shouldn't be considered dummies, or unknowledgable or brainwashed. Guitars and steel are different instruments with different histories and different communities. Of course there is a lot of overlap. But guess what? A lot of guitar playing steelers know all about tube amps for guitar, play tubes with guitar, but also play a Peavey or other SS steel amp with steel.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 1 Jul 2009 1:56 pm

Tube amps are definitely in the minority now, the most popular remaining tube amp for steel being the Twin Reverb. I have to chuckle at all this, though, because the tube heads think they have the "secret", and the solid state guys sometimes get smug too, knowing that their thinking is supported by about 95% of the pedal steelers who use mostly Peaveys, or one of the few boutique solid state jobs.

The thing you have to keep in mind is that although you may like this and somebody else may like that, it really doesn't matter to anybody but you. If your playing or tone sucks with a solid state amp, then chances are pretty good it's going to also suck when you play through a tube amp of any description. (Despite what the purveyors of each may tell you, the differences are incredibly small.) Of course, the reverse is also true. Pros use both types, the only difference is they don't get on here like some doofus and try to convince somebody they're wrong.

Players (mostly amateurs) abound who wring their hands and moan about the virtues of each, but I seriously doubt that any of them can listen to an unknown recording and definitively state what type of amp a player is using, much less say "He's using a Twin", or "He's using a Nashville 1000" with any degree of reliability.

Of course, then...you'll always have the person who'll say something like "Well, you can't really tell when it's a recording!" And of course, statements like that only serve to validate my comment about the differences being incredibly small.

So, I say use whatever you like...but I'm here to tell you that you might as well forget the idea that one or the other is gonna make a big difference in your playing.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 1 Jul 2009 3:25 pm

A few years ago, I got a studio call to play with a well-known melodic heavy metal guy. I figured the engineer would have no clue how to record a steel guitar, so I took along the Lloyd Green Little Darlin' session cd. I told the engineer and the guitarist, "See! Really clean!" They both looked at me and said, "JB, that ain't clean! Thar's some hair in thar!" And I realized that they were right!!
The best-sounding SS amp I ever had was a Lab, L-5?, with a 15. It really sounded like a tube amp. Then I got rid of the Lab, and got a Vegas, for next to nothing, brand new. My best bud worked at TNN, and got my amp included in their first big buy from Peavey. I HATED that amp! Too sterile-sounding. All the fundamental, and no interaction between notes. Very few incidental harmonics. I'm back to a Rick Johnson-cabbed Twin, with a 15" JBL, and am as happy as a clam! But,,, that's just me!

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 1 Jul 2009 4:20 pm

Well for Bill Duncan and David Cook. Fender twins need the right man working on them, as well as being "voiced" for a steel guitar. I don't like a stock Fender twin near as well as one that has been gone through THOROUGHLY and voice particularly for steel. Any amp can go 'south" on you--tube or solidstate.

Bill, I can see why you soured on the few fender twins you have tried. They are guitar players amps, not steel guitar players amps. Try a twin Ken Fox goes through and sets up for steel, and see what you say then. THEN you will have matched the right amp with the right instruments, and you will hear much better tone out of a twin. Then again, maybe not?

Tommy Huff · Post by **Tommy Huff** » 1 Jul 2009 6:49 pm

well, been trying this steel thing for about a year..bass player...definately tougher than bass. but I have always loved the sound of a pedal steel. Has anyone used a peavey triumph or artist amp for steel? I have an artist 120 watts tube power solid-state pre-amp with a 15" black widow 1501-4....My triumph is a bit of a different animal. I put the triumph chassis in an old Pacer cab....same as a nash-400 cab ...and it fits perfect..and a JBL k-130 15" speaker. To me both of these amps sound great and have plenty of clean headroom. you don't see a lot of these around any more....anyone using these....curious....Tommy

Alvin Blaine · Post by **Alvin Blaine** » 1 Jul 2009 11:43 pm

I know what I like and what sounds right to me. I have over 25 amps and use them all, only one is solid state(it's a small battery powered travel amp).

Scott Shipley · Post by **Scott Shipley** » 2 Jul 2009 12:02 am

I use a 100 watt combo with a 15" JBL that was reconed by Woody Waddell with an aluminum voice coil. I replaced the baffle board with 3/4" cabinet grade birch. It's a tube power amp with a solid state pre-amp.
It kicks butt.

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