The Steel Guitar Forum

Dean

i think you and i are on the same page

most beginers are overwhelmed with to much information to the point that they can't
understand how to use it
(that was my case)
good intentions,
just to much information to fast
we need to focus on helping them
with what they need in the right order
as they need it

Brent
untill the newbie learns the strings
and fretboard , the pedals and knee levers
are useless
its simply to much to fast
or at least it was for me
the next thing they should learn is
where all the chords are with A&B down
after that they will be better
able to understand how things start
fitting together

Not true Dean,, the question was not about specific theory, but what a newbie should learn. I Honestly think it would benefit a raw new musician to learn some BASIC BASIC theory so he or she understands what they are struggling with. You have to understand what it is that is confusing you before you can figure it out.

If the thread where about what specific theory I would elaborate on what I feel is the important stuff. Calvin said he doesnt want a music lesson in this thread and I am trying to respect that.

I feel that a refusal to study theory is shooting oneself in the foot.

Am I trying to show how much I know? NO! I really could care less about that. When I play I want it to sound good. Period. I think that should be the goal of every musician.

No offense intended, but no one has any reason to post here to try and impress you guys.

You ask for help then lash out against it? Ridiculous behavior guys.

Why should anyone waste anymore of their time posting on these type of questions?

best advise for newbies? Listen to experience. I do, I have learned so much from the steel players here, and from the local guys who took the time to tell me things. Jay Kardong and Patrick Porter in Seattle kindly allowed me to ask questions, let me play there steels, borrow amps.....etc. If i didnt like what they had to say or something they played I politely noded, listened, and stored it under I disagree in my head. Why would I disrespect someone generosity as showing off?

If you guys feel bad because something is new to you, and you dont understand it then you should TRY HARDER, not lash out.

You 2 should be thanking everyone who has tried to help you.

Ingrates

Urgent and Important

Please listen to this, if you never listen to anything else.

I said I was going to stay off of this thread. But I simply can't sit by and read totally wrong theory writings that will only add so much confusion (from it being not even close to being correct) that a person could never get it right.

Dean S. My honest feelings about your posting things you know nothing at all about, would be this: And it's meant in a nice way, so take it as such.

Please don't be posting things that are totally above your head, as you have done. And why I say this, I quote simply a portion of what you just wrote:

The C chord is made up of the C, F, G notes what many would consider as I(1)-C, IV(4)-F and V(5)-G notes

The A chord is made up of the A, D, E notes what many would consider as I(1)-A, IV(4)-D and V(5)-E notes

There is NOTHING any worse than giving people totally wrong information, as in the above.

For anyone who copies stuff down for later use. Please don't the above from Dean.

Corrected: "C" Cord is: C, E, G.

Corrected: "A" Cord is: A, C#, E.

Corrected: Cords are made up using a: 1, 3, 5.

Corrected: Basic Cord Progression as in the Key of "C" is: C, F, & G, which are the: I, IV, V, Cords of the C Scale.

Corrected: Basic Cord Progression as in the Key of "A" is: A, D, & E.

This is why it's so important to not have people who really don't know make such posts.

And Dean, I'm not talking behind your back, I'm saying that you should just sit back, read and try to learn, rather than make such invalid posts. This is not the first time you've done the same.

This is the kind of thing that totally confuses the REAL folks who DO want to learn.

When I start a new thread, or for that matter, bring up one of my older ones and go from there, I want it to be only for the ones who want to really learn. Not ones who simply enjoy posting nonsense for others to read.

I'm sorry if I sound crude or rude. But when it comes to music, I do take it serious. And no I didn't write the book on music nor theory, nor playing music. But what I am willing to do, is to help the folks who REALLY has a longing to really learn.

Don

I don't play a pedal yet and I don't know if I will get there.

everyone will have what they consider to be the best order! for those that have a musical background of music with need a different order from those that have no clue whatsoever. I always start if you will for a total raw beginner. For those that already have more knowledge can just read on as they already have their own way of doing things so the info I put out won't do them any good.

My first order to start:

1, get your instrument;
2, If a string instrument, learn how to tune it. I would suggest buying a tuner right off the bat! you want to have your guitar, banjo, steel whatever in perfect tune every time before you practice or play it.
3. start paying attention to what your playing, start
listening. When your tuning pay attention and listen to how each string sounds as it is being played. try memorizing each note, LISTEN LISTEN LISTEN. What I do is try to tune whatever sting trying by ear to get it right, then tune all the other strings, then try my tuning with a tuner. Noting how far off I am low or high and try to remember again what the sounds are when correctly tuned. I have yet to be close! As I said my ears are not that good.
4. I select the song that I want to play, First I break the sound down into parts, then I record those parts individually.
5. I then write or tab out the part Im gong to learn, one part at a time.
6. when I have all the tabs or whatever written out for all the different parts. At this point I will know or learn each chord in the particular part Im going to learn. I start of with learning the chords first and then I play along with the mp3 or song until I can play it reasonably well and have that particular part memorized.

"also keep in mind. I use a program called SLOWDOWNER so that I can slow the music down. This will let me at least be close to the speed I will be able to learn from. As I get better and know the chords better I can speed the music up and finally be able to play at the proper speed playing the chords.
7. then I do the same thing with the individual notes.
8. when I know one part good I'll start on the next part! and will go on until I finally got the entire song down!
9. Then I practice the entire song over and over and over again.

Once I know that song and when I start getting bored, I start with the next song following the above procedures.

Then what I do I will go over the #1 song play and play it, then go to the next song and play it a couple of times. So I get to get use to it.

When I get down with my 3rd song, I will at some point before I quit practicing, again play the first song, then play the second song, etc.

Then the 4th, the 5th and then the 6th song. After awhile you just don't have time to play all the songs, so I mix them up but every other day or whatever I am playing all the songs that I've learned.

you will notice that as you are playing these songs that after time you find out that your playing each song better and better. You may even begin to do a try changing the way you play a song with more knowledge that you gaining. With more confidence you will or might experiment a little more and a little more.

Your relatives and your friends may even make comments that boy, that song sound a lot better or boy your really getting to play pretty good, etc. This all helps and will give you more confidence in yourself and of course you will be having more fun as well.

I have also found that practicing shorter periods of time but may be more times a day well for me is a lot better then to practice for an hour or two or three at one sitting.

I practice daily about 15-20 minutes at one setting and I usually have 4 setting per day. HOWEVER, once I feel tired or may ass begins to hurt, or my figures or hand begins to hurt. I'M DONE!!!!! Yes even if you are 5 or 10 minutes into a setting. You have to be comfortable to learn as you have to always be having fun in order to learn.

Take your time it will all come together at some point and when it does. Its a miracle!


Dean from NYC

Yes Calvin, I both agree and believe that Dean and you, are very much both on the same page.

However, that's not always a good thing.

Calvin, here is why you need theory or a portion of it at least. The song you just did, you said and I quote: about it being a good example of a THREE CORD song? Three cord song?

If that was the case, why did I hear a II cord come in there on the bridge portion of it, if it's the perfect example of a THREE CORDED SONG?

That makes it a FOUR corded song, and not a three corded song at all.

Again, wishing you all the best. And maybe if Dean and you get together, you'll work it out.

Dean Salisbury wrote:Instead of telling me or trying to point out your knowledge to me, why don't you be more helpful and explain your thoughts reasonings to the newbies. You talk about:

"...I am in the Key of A and the other two chords that go with A are D and E .

You don't need a musical degree to know this. But if you are going to play a 3 chord song in the key of A, it's a good thing to know you are playing A,D and E...."

Why not explain all the different "keys" "chords" as well as point out the 3 notes that make up each chord . I know the 12 keys and I know the chords on a standard guitar and on the piano. I don't know them on the steel especially in all the tunings.

Telling me how smart you are, just coming back stating our agreements or disagreement is not helping the newbie. However,
Dean from NYC

Dean, what the heck are you talking about.?( ref my post above)

My comments only refer to someone who wants to play a 3 chord song in the Key of A , as Calvin suggests, and it would be good for them to know that the 3 common chord are A,D and E. From there they can learn that they represent 1,IV and V.
A beginning, a start...


I am not trying to show how smart I am. I am making the point that just poking around and making sounds that SOUND good is not a good way to learn how to play ANY Instrument.

First off I don't know every note on the steel and I don't care to.

Help a Newbie, fine..but what is the background of the Newbie ? Don't you think that should be the first question or do we assume they all nothing about anything ?

Why is there so much anger up here ?

good grief.

I welcome anyone to my house for a lesson, I will show you how to play a few songs, where a bunch of chords are and then I will go backwards and define the language of it all slowly and you will leave a better student from it all.

we won't argue, we will learn and we will have a good time.

Put the anger away.

Calvin Walley wrote:
Brent
untill the newbie learns the strings
and fretboard , the pedals and knee levers
are useless
its simply to much to fast
or at least it was for me
the next thing they should learn is
where all the chords are with A&B down
after that they will be better
able to understand how things start
fitting together

Sorry, It looks like you had it all worked out without my input.
If the pedals and knee levers are useless, or too much for you, may I respectfully suggest you switch to a ukulele, where you have only four strings to worry about?
Bent (no r)

Bent, !!

Tony, you make some solid points.

There is only so much one can learn on the internet. Finding some real time lessons, even if you have to travel for them, is ideal. If not, pick up a few DVDs of reputable players. The steel guitar forum cannot teach you how to play steel guitar, beyond sharing some tab and giving a few little pointers here and there. Most of us aren't teachers. We learned any way we could. If you want it bad enough, you'll figure it out. But you will stop in your tracks early if you don't know how music works, and a thread cannot possibly explain it. Take a music course, learn from a DVD......there are all kinds of ways to learn. Hanging out on a computer is not one of them.

Chris, you are so correct, the only thing I am learning today is that I'm spending too much time up here .

I read back at what some of the anti theory opponents are writing and what they are writing is ;

learn the chords
learn them in several positions
learn the string grips

etc..

which at the end of the day is all music theory related whether they want to agree with it or not.

Guess I'll go back to fooling with Cubase and the Audio/MIDI Interface. No theory there, just 1's and 0's.

tp

Thanks Don you just proved my point! after I made the comments of the notes and chords. I new that it wouldn't be long that someone would make the correction and it wasn't long was it?

Now a beginner who don't know is more like to remember what makes up said chords. As you crucified me in correcting me. HOWEVER YOU DID CORRECT ME and the newbie will now more likely will remember!

It also proves my other point that when a person just could make a correction where necessary the person is booted to the floor. However, I have very broad shoulders and believe me I can take the heat. Especially when someone might learn from it!

I don't mind at all in being corrected and at times I will post things just for the purpose of being corrected. Some people will learn and remember things when things are being corrected as they get a double whammy!

and yes I've done it before, i can even tell where! So wouldn't you think there is a purpose to my madness?


Don your absolutely correct:

Corrected: "C" Cord is: C, E, G.

Corrected: "A" Cord is: A, C#, E.

Corrected: Cords are made up using a: 1, 3, 5.

Corrected: Basic Cord Progression as in the Key of "C" is: C, F, & G, which are the: I, IV, V, Cords of the C Scale.

Corrected: Basic Cord Progression as in the Key of "A" is: A, D, & E.

As I said in that post: "...some one will be very quickly correcting me..."



I'm very glad your paying attention.

Thanks again!

Dean From NY

Don

i stand corrected it was 4
i played C -F - G & Bb

a thousand pardons

and guys , i never said that theroy was a bad thing
i just meant that to much to fast can overwhelm a newbie

Helping new players can't be anything but a good thing. My tip? Sweeten your tuning by flatting the 2 G#s a bit. Your ear should guide you on this. I tune most everything else straight up.

One more? You can play 3 majors (at least) 3 minors and two sevenths from any bar position. None of these positions are tricky. And all the chords are related! This puts me among those who feel that it is not a good idea to "save the pedals for later." It is all related. After 35 years of playing, that's my story and I am sticking to it. Good luck, everyone.

Dean Asked me:

So wouldn't you think there is a purpose to my madness?

Dean! Please don't you or anyone, ever ask me for an answer, if you don't really want to hear the truthful answer that you'll get back from me. I'm not one for pulling punches, nor for down playing anything. With me, it's always been, what you ask for is what you get.

In answer to you. No Dean! I don't see anything that you write bad, as doing it for any purpose other than you simply not knowing what you're talking about in most cases.

I'm paying attention Dean, only for actually caring about ones who truly want to learn. Not ones who want to sit back such as you, and post nonsense, such as you've been doing from day one that myself and others have seen.

Sorry, but don't ask for what you don't want to hear from me, because you'll get it exactly as I see it to be.

I also feel that if you have that live deal going on, that's probably where you should be spending your time. Providing "your" whatever answers to their questions.

Dean said : "I don't mind at all in being corrected and at times I will post things just for the purpose of being corrected."

Dean,
That is very wrong and very negligent on your part. You intentionally post incorrect information so someone will come along and correct it, thus making a longer lasting impression on those trying to learn?? That is sick. I can not believe anyone would do something so damaging. You should not be involved in a thread about causing confusion if you are intentionally posting misleading and or incorrect information, holly cow, what could be more confusing than that. I cringed when I saw you posted incorrect information on major chord construction, but now you say you did it intentionally and yet, you say theory caused confusion. Wow, I know not to read another post by you in the future. That has to be the most absurd thing I have seen posted on here. I typically ignore all this crap, but that has to ne the worst thing anyone could do on this forum, posting false information to see if someone will correct...Wow, an all time low in my book….James

Dean said : "I don't mind at all in being corrected and at times I will post things just for the purpose of being corrected

i gotta go along with James on this one

thats just wrong

James' I'm with you.
Don, you must have the patience of Job to take this undeserved punishment.

This thread is getting sick, perverted and useless. The only way to end this is to ignore the posters who are turning it into crap.
That is what I am doing.
Anybody with me?

You see folks, that's the kind of help you'd get from guys such as Bernie Strub, if you'd only be willing to take their advice.

But until you're willing, there's not much that anyone can do for the folks who want to do it their way, but yet ask for help.

Great post Bernie, and a few others I've read during this thread.

And Calvin: If you were playing that song in the Key of C: it would not have been these cords: Meaning when you write what cords, it's always best to start out with the Root (key the song was done in) to avoid confusion. But there are ways to tell as in the below: Where you wrote out the following:

C -F - G & Bb

Which the C, F, & G are the cord progression for the key of "C" However the Bb, wouldn't fit for the II cord if it had been done in the key of "C".

Therefore I knew it had to be done in one of the other keys. Here is how you can find out, if you know a little theory.

Now I'm not saying you said it was done in the key of "C" I'm simply showing you something to learn by, that will come in handy, if you knew some theory.

It would have been the II cord, which would have been a "D" cord, for the accidental.. And since a "D" cord was not on your list of Cords you played, then I knew it couldn't have been in the key of C.

Since it was a II cord that came in there that my hearing told me, a two cord for F, would be a G, and a II cord for a G would have been a A, and a two cord for a Bb, would have been a C.

So from the above, I can tell that you had to be playing the song then, in the Key of F, in order to have played a G...

Now do you see where theory comes into play?

I say that because "G" would be the only II cord out of any of the other cords you stated above.. So even though you stated them out of order, I could then find out which actual "KEY" the song had to have been played in.

In the above, I assumed it was done in C, since you stated you played C, F, G, But then, instead of playing a "D" for the II cord, (which it would have had to been) you stated you also played a Bb cord.

So, in the key of "F" The cords would be: F, Bb, C, and the II cord would have been the "G"

It's therefore, that song would have had to been done in the key of "F" for the "G" to have come into play..

Now do you see where knowing something about theory definitely can come in really handy?
Don

Bent, my patience does wear a little thin after a while.

But, I also consider the sources and take it all into consideration.

There are so many who would be willing to help, but I guess they are ahead of me in knowing why more of them don't. For much, the same reasons that's taking place here.

David H, Another fantastic player stopped by to lend his advice. David, is not just a great player, he is one great guy as well. He would have a lot to offer, on many areas, as would others who've been on here trying there best but to no avail.

It's therefore I say I'll leave this thread for the two who do have many things in common with one another. Just which one is ahead of the other, in their playing ability, I'd probably imagine it too would be pretty close.

Don

Don

the chord progression was as follows
C C F F
F F Bb Bb
C C F F
F F Bb Bb
C C F F
C C F F
G G C C
F F Bb Bb
C C F F

when I put up the chords i used
i did not intend for anyone to think
that was the correct order

and you are right sir
it is in the Key of F

i am sorry if i confused anyone

The most important thing for anyone to learn are scales, even if you are a newbie or a oldie player it will get you out of the s**t every time.....

Don Brown, Sr. wrote:Bent, my patience does wear a little thin after a while.

But, I also consider the sources and take it all into consideration.

There are so many who would be willing to help, but I guess they are ahead of me in knowing why more of them don't. For much, the same reasons that's taking place here.

David H, Another fantastic player stopped by to lend his advice. David, is not just a great player, he is one great guy as well. He would have a lot to offer, on many areas, as would others who've been on here trying there best but to no avail.

It's therefore I say I'll leave this thread for the two who do have many things in common with one another. Just which one is ahead of the other, in their playing ability, I'd probably imagine it too would be pretty close.

Don

It's clearer now, why the top pros aren't on here very much. They feel they don't have to put up with stuff like this.

People like you, and David Hartley and others who have a lifetime of experience should be treated with more respect than this, or we'll lose you guys too.

Yes, the two should be left alone to figure it out between the two of them.
I mean, you can lead a horse to the water, but you sure as heck can't force him to drink.

John Roche wrote:The most important thing for anyone to learn are scales, even if you are a newbie or a oldie player it will get you out of the s**t every time.....

John, I'm with you 100%. Now you're talking like the late Jeff Newman, the worlds best teacher.
Learn the scales guys...ascending, descending, halfways up and back down, every which way. They'll bail you out every time.

Clyde Mattocks wrote: The first thing I show them is the basic string 8, string six and pedal, string five and pedal. Thats the instantly recognizable steel hook. Their eyes light up! They are doing something they identify as steel guitar music.

THEN, I explain WHY it works. If you can get someone doing something to entertain themselves right off the bat, their interest will be maintained. Show
them a few licks and how to string them together, then tell them WHY.

Clyde - I like your approach. Being able to play some simple licks fairly early in the learning process keep hope of getting better alive. Playing something some one else will recognize as PSG music is also encouraging.

Thanks
Bill

Don,
Your comments on Calvin's song was right on the money. That is what BASIC theory is all about. Know your scales. That is a key to figuring out what is going on in a song.

As far as learning theory, I think there is a misunderstanding going on here. Knowing scales, chord construction, harmony theory can only make someone a better musician. I am only pushing that a new player know the basics of theory that I just mentioned. I think that a lot are interpretting our comments about learning theory as learning college level theory and learning to read music. That is not necessary. I do not know how to read music (and really don't have any intention of learning at this time), but have a good grasp on the other aspects of theory.

If all a player wants to do is play songs and not understand what he is playing, keep buying all the courses on the market. You'll learn a heck of a lot of songs, but not much else. Now, I haven't seen any of the courses put out in the last 10 years or so, so I am not sure if there is any explaining being done as part of the course. The courses I have bought (many of them) all just had tab to songs and maybe a little explaination of the tuning being used. It was up to me to figure out what the player was doing and why he was doing it that way.

Something that might help new players out is a free (I think it's still free) program called "Guitar Map" that someone on here wrote. You enter your copedant and it will let you select a chord or scale you want to find and map it out like a fretboard and show you where the chords can be found. It also will find the scale notes fo you. The information can be displayed as either notes or scale note numbers. This program has baled me out many times. I think there might be a link to this program in the links section of the forum. If not, maybe someone can chime in here with the link. It is a great tool.

Don Brown Sr., Tony Prior, Chris Ledrew, and others, if it's any consolation, your very informative and RIGHT ON post were not wasted at all. Look at all the "views" on this thread. Many, many folks silently benefited from your input.

Interesting point, to, the posts that are arguing against, are also showing the contrasting attitude/information(off key?) to avoid. It's all good.