The Steel Guitar Forum

Definitive Proof that it is Racquet!

I HAVE IT!

send me your address on back of a $20 bill & I'll send it to you...

(soon as your 6th period class gets out)

I have found that it is often the case that one of the differences between the 'fans' and the 'musicians' in any given genre is in the perceived 'purity' therein.

I used to work in a great guitar store, and dealt with a lot of bluegrass fans/players. More of often than not, the folks who were the 'fans' had all the specifics down; the right type of neck-joint, the right wood, the right pick, the proper stance, microphone, you name it. Then came the technique, and last of all came the heart.

The folks that came in who were the 'musicians' tried any guitar that seemed interesting, often played rock and roll and blues lines, even (gasp!) talking about drummers and electric instruments! Clearly NOT acceptable to the purists, who were almost NEVER the musicians...

For further example, a friend of mine plays in a 'alt-old-time' band, where the 'alt' is basically a disclaimer warning the purists that there is an electric guitar in the band. Yike! When they go to bluegrass festivals, the folks in the campground jamming are into upholding a strict set of guidelines based on how it's 'supposed' to be played and how it's 'supposed' to sound, and it's certainly going to be bluegrass. Meanwhile, the artists performing at the event will be jamming on blues, western swing, Django, country and Radiohead covers.

I must admit that I see parallels in mentality on this thread.

Regarding today's music: a lot of it is questionable, and a lot of it is incredible. Look back to any point in time and you will find the same. What you remember most is the good stuff, not the junk. But rest assured, there has ALWAYS been 'bad' music. Check the Billboard charts for the week of the original Woodstock concert, for example. Yech.

Furthermore, artists or musicians who do things a bit differently are often scorned at the time and revered and copied later on, ie Dylan going electric, Jimi Hendrix, DJ's sampling in hip-hop, Flatt and Scruggs recording an album with a drummer, and maybe even Robert Randolph. Maybe.

And finally, I should point out that I became interested in the pedal steel from somewhat unconventional sources: Daniel Lanois (no picks! overdriven!), John Neff of Japancakes (jamming with synthesizers and vocoders!), Calexico, Jim O'Rourke's Eureka album, and yes, Robert Randolph. This has led to a love of the instrument, and an interest in the players whom most of the forum members would call 'tops.'

Great post, Marc.

By the way, Marc just joined the Forum and, at this time, he has posted a total of 6 times.

Calvin I am not jumping your but let's just agree to disagree.

My feeling on the overall mess and BUTT jumping is due to someone who doesn't particulary like a STYLE of MUSIC, and make no mistake, it is music, it has a beat, it is in tune and it follows natural scales of Music, then this peson proceeds to state that the person who's style he does not like is not a Musician and is making a racket..not to be confused with Racquet . Thats where the self inflicted pain joins the equation.

Decades back I went to see Mahivishnu John McLaughlin in concert. I was not ready for what I was hearing. I didn't much care for it. Although I never declared it racket or that he was not a musician, it just didn't work for me at the time. It was a long ways away from New Riders, Poco, etc..

The man was pushing the envelope, no..he was dragging the envelope behind him....at a very fast pace too !

perhaps RR is doing the same thing...

I wish I could go back to that time and re-visit that show..I am thinking I would have a whole new view of things with todays mindset..

we can lead, we can follow..or we can just do nuthin'...or we can sit in the back seat and give driving instructions to someone who isn't even listening to us...

I'd say generally that a musician is someone whose experience of music has broadened his/her definition of it.

Robert Randolph was on the cover of a tabloid in Austin a few years back. The recordings I could find with him were with Blind Boys of Alabama.
I'm always running into something broadening.
The Blind Boys of Alabama are musicians, but I don't think they play instruments.
Some people who play instruments probably aren't musicians.

[quote="Calvin Walley"]my point to all this is: the term musician has no meaning anymore . we are now calling anyone that makes any sound whatsoever a musican
....folks it just aint so. no matter how much you would like it to be[/quote]........an old fiddle player friend of mine once made a comment to me that lots of folks can play instruments....but, only a few of those can play music......a lot of truth in that statement...

In the 19th century Europeans thought art was defined by the refined tastes of experts. In the 20th century further investigation showed that there are no boundaries for art. Essentially everything humans create is art. Whether it is good or bad art is a matter of personal opinion and prejudice. These opinions and prejudices are reflections of their owner, not of the art itself. Apparently some people on the Forum missed the entire 20th century.

Racket/Racquet - alternate and acceptable spellings in this context:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racket - probably more common in the US.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racquet - probably more common in the UK.

Or maybe you'd like to see the etymology of this word:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/raquette

My experience is similar to Marc's. Musicians tend to focus on music and make music that suits them. Style-police tend to focus on policing their style and make a racket if the music doesn't suit them. RR is definitely a musician, and he makes music.

In the 20th century further investigation showed that there are no boundaries for art.

David - even though I agree with the assertion that there are no intrinsic boundaries for art, I don't see how anybody can "investigate" that assertion. It's purely a premise one can either accept or not. One can certainly make a more restrictive definition of art, and work out of that belief system. I think conflicting belief systems are the main cause of discord - it would be better if we could just accept that we work from different premises and leave it at that. Instead, we get into these kinds of pitched battles that have no resolution.

all these definitions and straying from topic.

RR plays Blues on The Steel, he isn't playing 16th Century Fiddle..

he IS a Musician, He is Talented, and he is setting a course different than what we are accustomed to..

Whatever you do the next time you go to Wallmart, do NOT take a different route...

Well here is my assertion. Calvin is neither a musician nor a lover of music, so his opinion is moot.

He is not a musician by his own definition and description.

He doesn't like jazz (yikes - not sure how you can like music and not like some form of jazz from Louis Armstrong to Winton Marsalas), doesn't like rock and roll, doesn't like marching band music, doesn't like today's country, and I'm sure doesn't like opera or classical.

That doesn't leave a whole hell of a lot and I assert that someone who's interest in music is so narrow is interested in it for reasons other than the music. Maybe he got lucky the first time to a Hank Williams record.

So lacking musicianship and lacking love of music, his opinion is worthless, in my opinion.

Dave, maybe investigation is not the best word. Maybe "exploration" better captures what happened. The exploration was carried out by the entire world fine arts community, as well as popular culture. The artists, musicians, poets, writers, critics, fans, buyers and museums all kept pushing the boundaries until it became obvious that there were none. That's probably the most firmly established contribution of 20th century art. In fact, even the definition "everything humans create" is too confining. The appreciation of "found art" showed that it is not even necessary for a human to have created it as art. If a human, any human, looks upon it as art, then it is.

Some people find the lack of boundaries liberating. Others find it terrifying or infuriating. Life is short. It's a lot more fun being liberated.

"There is no bad music, only bad performances." - Ornette Coleman

He doesn't like jazz (yikes - not sure how you can like music and not like some form of jazz from Louis Armstrong to Winton Marsalas), doesn't like rock and roll, doesn't like marching band music, doesn't like today's country, and I'm sure doesn't like opera or classic

Bill
your right , i don't like any of the above BUT i do however call all of them music NOT racket...there is a difference

Only in your particular head.

"your right , i don't like any of the above BUT i do however call all of them music NOT racket...there is a difference
"

But you would never know what that difference is. You don't know anything about music.

I have watched Robert go from playing in a small clubs here in New York to playing on stages with Dave Matthews and Eric Clapton in the last seven years. I have seen him on late night TV, seen his videos, heard him as a sideman on songs while in the bookstore at the Museum of Modern Art. I have an Arhoolie Sacred Steel album from 1999 I think that has a very young Robert burning up scales with a clean tone.

When I first saw him in 2000, he played clean through a Peavey, played in tune, and other than getting harmonics with his nose, didn't seem that concerned with being flashy. He hardly sang at all, and sounded pretty amazing, I have to say. He left most of the vocals up to his cousin the bass player, who is one heck of a musician.

In the last few years, he's gone with a much more overdriven sound, and at times, in my view, his desire to "put on a show" sends his intonation out the window, I am not a fan of out of tune steel playing what can I tell you.

Some of you may have seen the Clapton Crossroads DVD, Robert spent a good deal of time showing the crowd how to march, rather than playing, did not quite get that.

So, while I am not in the camp that seems to view Robert as the devil incarnate when it comes to the steel, I am a bit disappointed with him considering what his shows seven years ago suggested he could do. It will be interesting to see how history treats him, as a real trail blazer or just a crazy outlier from the steel guitar world.

One last note, I do lots of shows and sessions, and not once in seven years has a bandleader or producer, or for that matter a student, asked me to play in his style. To be sure Robert is the only steel player that anyone asks me about, but I think this notion of his great contribution to the steel world being creating legions of steel players is a bit overblown.

For my money, it's tough to beat Chuck Campbell or the Lee Boys, every time I have gone to see the Campbell brothers, there are tears streaming down my cheeks, so, so much soul and power in their music it's hard to take.

Wow-some great posts-especially by Marc Jenkins and Gerald Menke.

I think Robert could play the crap out of something a little closer to traditional steel any time he wants. I have seen him live twice, and enjoyed the show, but it has grown to the point that it's beyond the steel. He is playing some basic regular guitar more often and spending more time being the veryvisible front man, which as we know, is not something that normally falls into steel guitar territory.

On the latest Santana CD, he does a nice job on an instrumental with Carlos and Kirk Hammett of Metallica.

I have a Blind Boys of Alabama album from a few years ago where he does a stellar job of supporting the vocals on a couple of tracks.

I also love the Campbell Brothers. I was talking to Darick Campbell one time after a gig and the discussion came around to Robert, and he just kind've smiled and said something like "it's Robert's time right now." They are just outstanding people and a joy with which to talk. And their music knocks me out, except my wife asks "why do they play so loud? True, they don't skimp on the volume.

I like the Lee Brothers a lot, and Aubrey Ghent, and several months ago I bought Calvin Cooke's "Heaven" CD, which is very good.

Robert has secularized the sacred steel thing and taken it down a different avenue, but he still puts that positive message out there, and for that, I'll always support him.

Thank you Gerald for bringing this thread back to it's original topic. I must say that while I think Calvin is wring, I am a little dismayed at the personal attacks against him.

When I first saw RR, I thought he was great, but as Gerald said, he was really concentrating on his playing. Today he has become a consummate showman and entertainer, but I don't see any musical growth. He's playing the same stuff he played 5 years ago, and not doing it as well because he's concentrating on singing and dancing.

At this point he has 2 choices. Continue doing what he's doing, which is eventually going to get old and tired, or get back to playing, and growing as a musician, even if it means possibly outgrowing his audience.

I hope he chooses the latter path. I think he has the talent to expand on sacred steel tradition and incorporate other musical styles (jazz?) into his playing. He might lose some of his current fans, but I hope that by doing so he would gain others.

Heard on the radio that RR is playing a big out door concert here in Atlanta on Monday Ap 2. Free to the public!! Final Four Basketball tournament is here and there are some big name entertainers lined up.

If I were Robert, I would just keep on dancing and singing and gigging till it runs out. THEN I might sit down and work on learning to play some things that won't get you a gig, but will make everyone on the forum happy.

I've seen several threads on RR since joining the Forum a few years back. They are often some of the largest. He is flamed and/or admired by so many here.

Maybe this has been suggested before but...

Why not a FORMAL INVITATION from the STEEL GUITAR FORUM to ROBERT RANDOLPH? An interview perhaps? Or an online question and answer? Moderated by b0b or some other inpartial expert?

I read the Guitar Player magazine interview. Not enough steel details. We could have asked better questions. Besides, RR probably knows he's the hot-button subject around here. Perhaps he'd like to defend himself. You know, tell us where to go for a change.

I'd tune-in for that!

Mike Perlowin wrote:He's playing the same stuff he played 5 years ago, and not doing it as well because he's concentrating on singing and dancing.

At this point he has 2 choices. Continue doing what he's doing, which is eventually going to get old and tired, or get back to playing, and growing as a musician, even if it means possibly outgrowing his audience.

That's exactly why I don't do "Gloria" anymore.

i doubt that Robert, if he was a member here, would have much time to devote considering all the dates, gigs, etc... he's got
he could enventually jump on in here when he retires....

Has RR ever been invited to a steel show in St. Louis or Dallas? Boy I bet that would be something to see live. Put him on the show and I bet the attendance would increase considerably. RR mixing and mingling with the greats. Turn him loose with Joe Wright, Cowboy Eddie Long and maybe Franklin with all of them trading rides. Wow!

b0b wrote:

Mike Perlowin wrote:He's playing the same stuff he played 5 years ago, and not doing it as well because he's concentrating on singing and dancing.

At this point he has 2 choices. Continue doing what he's doing, which is eventually going to get old and tired, or get back to playing, and growing as a musician, even if it means possibly outgrowing his audience.

That's exactly why I don't do "Gloria" anymore.

First off I still like Gloria..

secondly I have been to several Steel shows the past several years and some of those guys are doing the exact same sets..uhh..without the singing and the dancing

Maybe RR is about the performance as much as it is about the Music ?

As regards, having Robert and the Family Band do a steel show, I believe, and this may be apocryphal, but that someone contacted his management about performing in St. Louis or at a similar national convention, but his guarantee at the time, $10,000, was way outside the organizers' budget of course. I am sure their guarantee is closer to 50K now, so I wouldn't get your hopes up for them playing a convention anytime soon.

That dude tours constantly, just go and see him some time.

I feel most remiss for not mentioning Lonnie Bennett. He performed at the Norwalk show, maybe two years ago, and his performance, at 11 AM, was my favorite one of the whole day. I think he played a 12 string Super Slide...so great!