Triple raise and triple lower changers

[Brad Malone]

Why are some Steel Builders still only using triple raise and double lower changers instead of the triple raise and triple lower changers?

[Brad Malone]

About what year did the tunable split on string 6 become commonplace...talking about the G# to F# lower, bringing it back to G with the G# to A pedal. Seems to be standard at this time.

[Mike Perlowin]

Most people don't have need or use 3 lowers. I lower one of my strings 3 times, and I'm probably not the only one, but I know of nobody else off hand who does this.

MSA guitars now come with a 4 raise 3 lower changer and tunable splits on all strings. The triple lower was one of the reasons I bought one.

[Mike Wheeler]

I think a triple/triple changer is a must on a universal...at least I need it. On a standard D-10, 8x5, or S-10, 3x5, triple/double seems to be plenty.

But, these days more and more "special" changes are becoming part of the standard, so the triple/triple may become much more relevant and useful as time goes by. Just MHO.

[Brad Malone]

Mike, My new Williams (600 series) has the triple raise/lower but my older Mullen just has the double lower. I really bought the Williams for the unique Changer design, the triple lower came with the package.

[Mike Wheeler]

Brad, that's great. I've never played a Williams, but hope to some day. I like what I've seen and heard about them so far. They seem to be great guitars.

As much as I'd like to see triple/triple changers in all guitars, in all fairness, adding another lower to a changer isn't just a matter of adding an extra set of lower holes...the whole unit has to be taken into consideration...leverages, pull angles, materials used, etc. I'd like to see triple/triple changers standard on all new guitars, but there are valid reasons why there aren't...largely economic based. Retooling, and end plate changes, to name two...oh, and the majority of copedents don't require them yet. YET.

[b0b]

I have a fairly complex copedent, but I've never had a need for three lowers on a string. I use three raises on the middle F# string of E9th (one is a compensator pull) and on the A string of C6th.

I had Tom Bradshaw convert my Sierra Olympic to C6th at one point. It's double/double. He modified the finger for the A string to allow 3 raises and one lower. That guy's a genius!

Maybe some manufacturers have never gone to triple/triple because so few copedents require three lowers.

[Danny James]

My old 6 & 8 string Multi-Kords have the capability of raising or lowering any or all strings with each pedal. I can change the copedant in a matter of minutes as well.

I know those old Multi-Kords left a lot to be desired, but the principal is a good one, especially for those who like to experiment with different tunings.

If they could do it in the mid 40's, why with modern technology does no one do it now?

[Mike Perlowin]

Maybe some manufacturers have never gone to triple/triple because so few copedents require three lowers.

As I said earlier, I don't know anybody besides me who has 3 lowers on a string, and I only have them on the 11th string so I can get bass notes for the C# and C# minor chords.

I can't imagine why anybody who is not playing a Universal would need a triple lower.

[Danny James]

On my six string Multi-Kord tuned to Open strings A major low bass, I use triple lower on the second string, for----E, C6th, & D7th added 9th tunings.

I use triple raise on the 4th string. for A6th, D7th added 9th, and C6th tunings.

[Brad Malone]

Mr. Wheeler, I have my Williams for a month now and it is the best Steel I ever owned. I bought the Steel for the unique changer design but a lot of other things just came with the package. Its a S10WB with the same leg stance as a D-10 for stability..the end plates are 3/8" thick on the sides and 5/8" thick on the front and back..the finish is second to none...five coats of UV polyester sanded between each coat..I am very critical and hard to please but this Steel makes me very happy. I hope you get a chance to try one out.

[Mike Perlowin]

Bobby, I looked at you copedants. Why do you have your 2 F# to G raises on your Sierra on different knee levers?

[b0b]

Bobby, I looked at you copedants. Why do you have your 2 F# to G raises on your Sierra on different knee levers?

I do not. I raise it to G# on P1, G on RKR, and have a 10 cent compensator raise on RKL.

I've recently sold that Sierra. I should remove it from my page. The copedent was the same as the front neck of my Williams anyway.

[Rainer Hackstaette]

Mike,
On my Sierra Session S-14 uni, I have 3 lowers on strings 2 and 8 each. The reason for that is that I have the change lock for the B6 mode on a dedicated LK lever, and I put the two lowers on string 2 on two sepearate RK levers. Also, there are 4 raises on string 5: P1, P3, P7 and the raise adjustment tuning rod for the split with the Bb lower.

[tab]

LKL LKV Lock LKR 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 RKL RKR
1 F# +G +G +G#
2 D# -C# +E -C# -D
3 G# +A
4 E +F -D# +F# +F* -D#
5 B -Bb +C# +C# -A +C#
6 G# -F# +A -F# +A#
7 F# -F
8 E +F -D# +F# -D -D#
9 D -C# -C#
10 B +C# -A +C
11 G# +A
12 E +F -D#
13 B +C# -G#
14 E
[/tab]
The Session has a 3R/2L changer, but with Sierra's "tandem pull" system, I manage to pull it off (pun intended). If the changer had split tuning screws, I wouldn't need the 4th raise, but I'd still need 3 lowers.

Rainer

[Paddy Long]

The new Carters are actually quad raise double lower ...allowing the addition of splits etc without taking away a raise possibility!

[Dan Burnham]

Guys,
My little BMI Push Pull that Zane Beck built 25 years ago was Quad Raise, Quad Lower. He build the first Quad Raise, Quad Lower for Zane King 30 years ago.
All of the BMI Push-Pulls are Quad.

Dan

[Scott Swartz]

Carter will mix the fingers on the changer if you like, ie some 3+3 and some 4+2, I had them do this for me to match up to my setup.

[Roger Rettig]

Resurrecting this old thread - it's relevant to my proposed new tuning.

I think Williams and MSA are still the only contenders but I may be wrong.

Edited, thanks to Jon's response:
I should have included the vital fact that it's a 12-string I'd need. That does eliminate some makers.

Anyone?

[Jon Light]

Plenty of 3 + 3's. Unless I am mistaken, besides MSA & Williams --- Mullen. Justice. Rittenberry. Excel. Show Pro.

[Roger Rettig]

Thanks, Jon. I should have added that it's a 12-string I'm after; that narrows the field a bit.

[John Swain]

Roger, my Williams, delivered 1/21, has 4/3 changers !

[Roger Rettig]

Thanks, John.

I'm leaning towards a Williams despite the unavoidably long delivery time. Bill's workmanship looks excellent and he's been easy to communicate with.

I have considered a couple of used 12-strings here on the Forum and the sellers have been very patient with me. Unfortunately, I cannot find an available repair-guy to do my setup; everyone seems to be backed up with work.

[Johnie King]

Franklin Changer works well especially Ii you want too lower a full octave

[Roger Rettig]

Johnie....

If you've got a 12-string Franklin in stock, I'll take it!

[Johnie King]

Here's a 12 string Franklin I had for a while.
I traded this Franklin to John Bohlinger here in Nashville he might let it go .

Rodger this one may still be available.